Vessel of Hatred (D4 first DLC)

[Biomega]

What do you think the core toolset is for the spiritborn that never changes? I've seen some pretty wildly different builds for it.

You can make all sorts of builds, but the GOOD builds all use the same mechanics: Ravager, The Hunter, Counterattack, Armored Hide - often The Scourge, too. All they swap out is the damage skill. Same thing goes with the passives: maximizing Resolve/Barrier + Viscous Shield interactions for massive damage multipliers. All the top builds look like that.

That's not to say you can't intentionally build things differently, but if you want to perform, you stick to the core framework.

I haven't had a chance to go over the upcoming patch notes yet, though. Those may well change things.

[Trifle]

You can make all sorts of builds, but the GOOD builds all use the same mechanics: Ravager, The Hunter, Counterattack, Armored Hide - often The Scourge, too. All they swap out is the damage skill. Same thing goes with the passives: maximizing Resolve/Barrier + Viscous Shield interactions for massive damage multipliers. All the top builds look like that.

Hmm, I looked into it a bit more and you're right about most of this. I think the problem is a lot of these abilities enable strong extra damage interactions which outweigh the benefit of using any damage related cooldowns. Eg the armoured hide resolve -> block chance -> crit damage.

I will say viscous shield I'm pretty sure is bugged atm as it's giving you extra damage based on base life rather than max life = +1% damage per 12 barrier you have. I'm pretty sure they'll fix this eventually as it's wildly better than any other paragon board atm.

The hunter is fairly optional compared to the other things you mentioned but it has pretty good versatility.

[Biomega]

I will say viscous shield I'm pretty sure is bugged atm

Oh it is. And it's not the only thing. There's plenty of bugged mechanics, and many are not listed under the fixes in the upcoming patch notes, either. So unless they're undocumented changes, we'll continue to be having some fun with them.

The hunter is fairly optional compared to the other things you mentioned but it has pretty good versatility.

It's generally the most useful ultimate, but the only thing that matters is that it's an ultimate. It's used primarily for the array of buffs associated with using an ultimate, and the fact that it's both mobility AND has an inbuilt cooldown reset are just icing on the cake. Builds that don't need the mobility or reset (like Evade Eagle) use The Seeker for much the same reason. Practically no one ever uses the others.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Just finished the campaign. So we bought a very expensive expansion that has no ending?! Seriously, I'm so pissed...

[Biomega]

Just finished the campaign. So we bought a very expensive expansion that has no ending?! Seriously, I'm so pissed...

Well, it does.

Just not a particularly good one

But that's only fitting, because it doesn't have a good beginning or middle, either.

[kenn9530]

Just finished the campaign. So we bought a very expensive expansion that has no ending?! Seriously, I'm so pissed...

Its an expansion of the price of dlc so not expensive, another thing you dont buy an ARPG for a story you buy it for the gameplay you will get after you finish the story

[MakeMeLaugh]

Well, it does.

Just not a particularly good one

But that's only fitting, because it doesn't have a good beginning or middle, either.

The ending is in the next expansion, the story of this expansion could have ended at any point of if you think about it.

[Edge-]

Its an expansion of the price of dlc so not expensive, another thing you dont buy an ARPG for a story you buy it for the gameplay you will get after you finish the story

Many people buy ARPG's for the story. Blizzard spent a fair bit of money and effort promoting the expansions narrative and campaign.

If nobody buys an ARPG for the story, why did Blizzard spend so much time and money writing a story and doing cutscenes and all this VO? That's very expensive and a lot of money they could have spent on the gameplay instead!

[kenn9530]

Many people buy ARPG's for the story. Blizzard spent a fair bit of money and effort promoting the expansions narrative and campaign.

If nobody buys an ARPG for the story, why did Blizzard spend so much time and money writing a story and doing cutscenes and all this VO? That's very expensive and a lot of money they could have spent on the gameplay instead!

Story is not usually much more than 30-40 hours and 10 hours additional for an expansion, the story is the smallest part of an ARPG mainly just there for a setting nothing much more, the gameplay is 90% of the game.

ARPGs are the wrong game to buy if you are wanting them for the story.

[Khaza-R]

Story is not usually much more than 30-40 hours and 10 hours additional for an expansion, the story is the smallest part of an ARPG mainly just there for a setting nothing much more, the gameplay is 90% of the game.

ARPGs are the wrong game to buy if you are wanting them for the story.

Yet the Diablo franchise has always been very story-focused for an ARPG. No doubt to Edge's point, that part of the reason its so popular in the first place.

[Edge-]

Story is not usually much more than 30-40 hours and 10 hours additional for an expansion, the story is the smallest part of an ARPG mainly just there for a setting nothing much more, the gameplay is 90% of the game.

ARPGs are the wrong game to buy if you are wanting them for the story.

So if it's so unimportant why does Blizzard spend so much money on it (again, cutscenes and VO and shit aren't cheap) and then even more money promoting it?

It's fine to acknowledge that VoH may just have a weaker story that's getting criticism.

[Mamut]

Story is not usually much more than 30-40 hours and 10 hours additional for an expansion, the story is the smallest part of an ARPG mainly just there for a setting nothing much more, the gameplay is 90% of the game.

ARPGs are the wrong game to buy if you are wanting them for the story.

I don't play ARPG for the story but that doesn't mean it can't be good. Good story in ARPG enhance gameplay for me.

I know alot of people did not liked the D4 base story but I think it was really good. All those cutscenes with Liltih and all those CGI movies between acts made the game very climatic.

But in Vessel theres 0 CGI movies except the one we saw long time ago. Cutscenes were also bad maybe except the last one when Mephisto possesed Akarat body.
Urivar was also a wasted character, I was sure hes gonna be more important but his story ended so quick and it looked like he did not had any impact in what happened. Like what was even his purpose here?

[kenn9530]

So if it's so unimportant why does Blizzard spend so much money on it (again, cutscenes and VO and shit aren't cheap) and then even more money promoting it?

It's fine to acknowledge that VoH may just have a weaker story that's getting criticism.

They spend money on it because they can and its not really an expansion if they dont expand the story a little, its still the least important thing in the game, its only there to add a little more depth to the world not really as a selling point for playing the game on its own.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't play ARPG for the story but that doesn't mean it can't be good. Good story in ARPG enhance gameplay for me.

I know alot of people did not liked the D4 base story but I think it was really good. All those cutscenes with Liltih and all those CGI movies between acts made the game very climatic.

But in Vessel theres 0 CGI movies except the one we saw long time ago. Cutscenes were also bad maybe except the last one when Mephisto possesed Akarat body.
Urivar was also a wasted character, I was sure hes gonna be more important but his story ended so quick and it looked like he did not had any impact in what happened. Like what was even his purpose here?

The story is fine it does its job in expanding on the world and thats all it has to do, gameplay makes up for everything beyond that since that is the most important thing in a game, i never once player WoW for the story it was solely for the gameplay it offered either, story is the all the way at the bottom of the list for reasons to play a game because most stories are stuff you have already done 100 times already.

[Biomega]

Urivar was also a wasted character, I was sure hes gonna be more important but his story ended so quick and it looked like he did not had any impact in what happened. Like what was even his purpose here?

I have no idea what the whole Burned Knight plot was for. I suspect it may have been purely to justify more enemy variety, so they could put Cathedral enemies in the new zones. You don't need any of that for the main plot. Neyrelle doesn't need the Cathedral pursuing her - she's already being driven by the Stone. Even if they want that impetus, it doesn't require Urivar or some new faction - Prava could just be the one doing that, she's an established fanatic so her flip-flopping back to "ally" at the end wouldn't even be a problem because she goes where her faith tells her.

Is this just... filler? Did they need more stuff to do because just getting to Neyrelle and "curing" her wasn't enough to fill the time? It certainly feels like it had no sense or purpose or direction, and is introduced as quickly as it is resolved.

Even the character itself is nonsensical. Why's he sucking on a piece of burning wood? Did he get fire powers now? Nope - just a plain ol' dude who gets killed like a plain ol' dude. Fuck, that weird bonus quest line after the campaign with the knight fanatics in Nahantu has more substance.

[Edge-]

They spend money on it because they can

If Blizzard could save money by not doing a campaign, they would. There's been extensive reporting on ATVI's aggressive cost-cutting pushes at the studio. "Because they can" is not an argument that would fly.

its still the least important thing in the game, its only there to add a little more depth to the world not really as a selling point for playing the game on its own.

In your opinion. Which is contradicted by the marketing effort and money that Blizzard put behind highlighting the campaign and narrative elements of the game and not just the gameplay/endgame elements. Again, I agree with you - campaigns are generally the least important part of an ARPG as a core ARPG player. But that's just like, our opinion, man.

[Djuntas]

Agreed story was a bit average, but game is only getting better and better at least. I just want an in-game AH and better balanced now. Just more builds pr. class thats good and not just 1-2 builds that works at endgame like the sorc keeps being. On eternal realm I have now maxed my gear out minus GA affix on gloves and amulet, which are now the most demanding items to get, which is a bit strange. I have all mythic uniques a sorc can get, was it about 10 of them and I havent played much. I mostly traded quit a bit selling runes and items so I made about 125 billion gold which goes to show how much inflation is now in eternal realm and likely season too.

I find mercs to be meeh, wanted to gear them up :& And I dont like the raid or understand the point of that new undercity thing.

[Yriel]

I have no idea what the whole Burned Knight plot was for. I suspect it may have been purely to justify more enemy variety, so they could put Cathedral enemies in the new zones. You don't need any of that for the main plot. Neyrelle doesn't need the Cathedral pursuing her - she's already being driven by the Stone. Even if they want that impetus, it doesn't require Urivar or some new faction - Prava could just be the one doing that, she's an established fanatic so her flip-flopping back to "ally" at the end wouldn't even be a problem because she goes where her faith tells her.

Is this just... filler? Did they need more stuff to do because just getting to Neyrelle and "curing" her wasn't enough to fill the time? It certainly feels like it had no sense or purpose or direction, and is introduced as quickly as it is resolved.

Even the character itself is nonsensical. Why's he sucking on a piece of burning wood? Did he get fire powers now? Nope - just a plain ol' dude who gets killed like a plain ol' dude. Fuck, that weird bonus quest line after the campaign with the knight fanatics in Nahantu has more substance.

I would imagine its the transition to the next DLC where the church will obviously be taken over by Mephisto and be even more evil and Prava will lead a small splinter group that will fight against them with the player character. Urivar and Prava set that up in this expansion.

[Biomega]

I would imagine its the transition to the next DLC where the church will obviously be taken over by Mephisto and be even more evil and Prava will lead a small splinter group that will fight against them with the player character. Urivar and Prava set that up in this expansion.

But again - you don't need Urivar for that. A plot like that entirely works with just Prava. In fact, it arguably works better if you don't have a suspicious faction like the Burned Knights that should have sensitized the Church to internal struggle - making a takeover by Mephisto even more awkward because they should have been on the lookout. If you leave it out, it's much more of a sucker punch.

[Yriel]

But again - you don't need Urivar for that. A plot like that entirely works with just Prava. In fact, it arguably works better if you don't have a suspicious faction like the Burned Knights that should have sensitized the Church to internal struggle - making a takeover by Mephisto even more awkward because they should have been on the lookout. If you leave it out, it's much more of a sucker punch.

Well i think he is needed to Prava has an opposition. It shows the church got more radical and Prava tries to fight against that but is ultimately powerless. He establishes her as the good person in the church.
If he wasn't there the church would not really appear in this extension and it would be hard to somehow reestablich Prava as a character.

Sure, they could have done it in a "The church was good to the people and now evil jesus comes and corrupts everything" way but i guess the way they did it works, too and establishes the characters more. Sure, Urivar is just a stand-in for what Arafiso will be in the next DLC but he fulfills that role. Plus he is the only real antagonist in this DLC.

[Biomega]

Well i think he is needed to Prava has an opposition. It shows the church got more radical and Prava tries to fight against that but is ultimately powerless. He establishes her as the good person in the church.

But that's stupid and unnecessary. Prava isn't "the good person in the church". Even now she isn't. If all they want is for her to be an ally, they can just have her do that - she's a fanatic, she always goes where her faith says. That's the whole point. She's not some critical thinker making opportunistic decisions, she's a true believer who has no problem flip-flopping between seemingly contradictory positions because faith doesn't care about logic or coherence. That's been well established in the original story.

They don't even seem to understand their own characters.