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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    While I believe the Creative Director earns more of the lion's share of credit (good or bad) for the overall story for the expansion, I would agree, no one person is 100% to blame, and can appreciate your take on saying, "it's everyone's fault".

    What irks me is when no-nothings jump in the forums to blast Danuser with everything they don't like about Shadowlands, when he was brought in as an after thought to try to right a rocky ship that was already sailing through stormy waters.

    So my main point being, if you are a person who can't see nuance, and who needs to find a single point to focus your ire towards, it would be Afrasiabi for Shadowlands, Danuser for Dragonflight, and seems like Metzen for TWW and the foreseeable future.

    All that said, I could not find reference to Danuser being promoted "Creative Director" when Afrasiabi left. It looks like it went from Metzen, to Afrasiabi, on hiatus, then back to Metzen. So to that end, my complete guess is that Danuser was more likely to be someone who lead by collaboration more so then even the other two (since he wasn't officially the Director), so of any of the 3 to blame the "entire" story of an expansion on, Danuser probably deserves the least credit.
    This whole Danuser vs Afrasiabi debate seem very pointless. Shadowlands was a failure. It doesn't really matter who was responsible for what at the end of the day. They both produced garbage and it led to the most distained WoW expansion in history. That's all that really needs to be said on the matter.

  2. #202
    Over 9000! sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    Spoiler alert: trolling hipster here.

    Why do trace the story backwards? A story is not necessarily build that way. That would disable the writing, because you always have to connect back to the deadlords and titans. It won't ever evolve.

    Like do you also refer to the first book of Donald Duck, because the book #1452 didn't make sense? WoW storyline is not much more complex than Donald Duck either, so don't make more out of it.
    are u comparing wow story that is built to continue, with a comic strip? literally different media
    and maybe my writing doesn't show that, but i can hate SL as much as i want, i still consider it canon, in fact i hate the idea of retconning itself, even if u fucked up, learn from it and move forward, not scrap it under a rug
    regardless: this isn't 'moving forward' here, this is on purpose shitconing many old events, to a degree that doesn't make sense, WoD started it, but SL abused it, a lot, the idea that the sword stabbed Azeroth to enough degree as baldie's shitty plan alone should make any eye roll and find the story stupid, we talking about super mary sue lvl of writing that everything went according to a day to day plan spanned over thousand of years, a plan that prior to SL we never had any hint it existed in first place
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    -snip-
    1- not according to SL covenant campaign, u can play it urself or just check nobble videos
    2- even blizz didn't say that, where did u get that idea?
    3- u ignoring the ppl who got fucked in that process, the subjects that get hunted, the warriors who lose in necrolord and join abominations, and the venthyr aren't the one who dies and go afterlife, they punish the afterlife residents (but that part is ok)
    4- since it came out of their ass idea in SL exp they could used ANY other object for that role, that is my point here
    5- i was talking about Bolvar arc story since post-wrath up to SL, it was build to completely different direction, yeah it piss off building for something that doesn't exist
    6- exactly? that's my point, u had a complete story, why change it?
    7- his fuck up is the usual evil act he view us as nothing no-threat to him, but up to SL, his plans were accurate to stupidly super-mary sue lvl, up to daily details
    if Sargeras sneezed he would failed, if Khadgar didn't stay in Outlands in wc2 he would failed, there are thousand of events if any went wrong his plan (up to SL) would failed, all happened, but this 5d chess player still acted like the most stupid deadmines boss and didn't see us as threat, even if his plan involved many of our actions winning against the toughest of enemies (like killing old gods)
    his plan involved that we are uber fighters no one can oppose us, and he still saw us as weak threat, doesn't make sense
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  3. #203
    Warchief Lupinemancer's Avatar
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    I don't think that's the reason since a lot of fans, myself included, actually are very curious to learn more about the Cosmic Forces and I do think Shadowlands had great potential, that they just wasted. I think the actual problem was poor storytelling, lack of direction, and badly-written characters (aka. The Jailer). Had Shadowlands had more patches that allowed us to explore a few more zones, and maybe let us meet a few more older characters, then it might have been a better expansion. In particular, Letting Thrall also meet his dad, and maybe have Anduin finally met his mom. Jaina could have also met her dad and settled that regret, while Baina could have met his mom who he never knew. There was so much potential, but sadly, they didn't go with it.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by AOL Instant Messenger View Post
    I feel like this conversation is skirting the line of my favorite pithy catchphrase, which is a wonderful go-to if you want a smokescreen to guard against any and all criticisms of the modern lore: "it was never good in the first place". I think it's very disingenuous because even though the lore was never exactly Tolkien-tier, it has undoubtedly taken a marked nosedive.
    That argument typically comes from those that don't care about story/lore..and hand-waves/dismisses all the problems for what should be foundational to the game.

  5. #205
    Legendary! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    If I remember correctly it was part of a larger lore video on the whole sigil storyline and what it originally was supposed to look like.

    Essentially Sylvanas was supposed to be the key to recreating Zovaal's sigil because she was shared some of his essence. Which makes sense she was his soulbind given her abrupt power-up in BfA and literally sharing his chains of domination.

    My issue with the rumor/theory is that soulbinding from what we've seen is an actual physicial process enabled by First One technology. So I don't know how she would done that prior to breaking the Veil. I guess maybe an Eternal One is powerful enough to circumvent the process. But still seemed like a rather big plot hole if its true.
    Oh, from the supposed leak/rumor/whatever alleging that SL's development did a 180-degree turn like 3 months before its release?

    I honestly love the idea of a Soulbinded Sylvanas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupinemancer View Post
    I don't think that's the reason since a lot of fans, myself included, actually are very curious to learn more about the Cosmic Forces and I do think Shadowlands had great potential, that they just wasted. I think the actual problem was poor storytelling, lack of direction, and badly-written characters (aka. The Jailer). Had Shadowlands had more patches that allowed us to explore a few more zones, and maybe let us meet a few more older characters, then it might have been a better expansion. In particular, Letting Thrall also meet his dad, and maybe have Anduin finally met his mom. Jaina could have also met her dad and settled that regret, while Baina could have met his mom who he never knew. There was so much potential, but sadly, they didn't go with it.
    This is a part of the reason why I feel like the expansion as a whole became muddled with the addition and emphasis on the heavier cosmic themes. Themes and story threads beyond the core narrative of what was happening in the Shadowlands.

    Would have allowed more opportunity to tell these seemingly more intriguing side stories, and focus a character development.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I feel 'Shadowlands' sole purpose was just to get us comfortable with the cosmic setting of the universe, and the importance of the 6 forces' threat towards Azeroth. Sacrificial lamb in some regards. They sacrificed would could have been a better story about death and the afterlife in favor of... what we got.
    yup that 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but the Void ain't the thing the Jailer fears.
    void was a example. the reason why i said: >>>like<<< void invasions >>>etc<<<

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupinemancer View Post
    I don't think that's the reason since a lot of fans, myself included, actually are very curious to learn more about the Cosmic Forces and I do think Shadowlands had great potential, that they just wasted. I think the actual problem was poor storytelling, lack of direction, and badly-written characters (aka. The Jailer). Had Shadowlands had more patches that allowed us to explore a few more zones, and maybe let us meet a few more older characters, then it might have been a better expansion. In particular, Letting Thrall also meet his dad, and maybe have Anduin finally met his mom. Jaina could have also met her dad and settled that regret, while Baina could have met his mom who he never knew. There was so much potential, but sadly, they didn't go with it.
    Blizzard played with death, and in doing so ruined the story and legacy of iconic characters; Not only characters that had died, but actual gods as well. Elune as a concept was amazing; this otherworldly presence that guides bestows powers upon the Night Elves... reduced to a personified, inept presence. Never meet your heroes.

    Revisiting Uther cheapened his character and existing story.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Not to sound rude, but the Titans quite literally aren't shown to be strong enough to make places like Zereth Mortis. This is a silly coping mechanism cause you dislike SL's lore.
    You may find it helpful to read what you quoted <3
    Horde story: MoP: Garrosh killed Legion: Voljin killed BFA: Saurfang killed, lose undercity, Sylvanas leaves, Rastakhan killed, Talanji forgotten, Tyrande demi-god, Alliance insert replaces Sylvanas SL: Sylvanas killed, Tyrande power hour DF: New Nelf city, Alliance gets Gilneas Chronicle 4: rewrite Alliance gets half continent Org is on, Horde losers tricked by Xal, Talanji Uldir victory given to Alliance, Horde started war TWW: random Thrall lines, story helfs and humans, Horde forced dwarves

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I think its started out fine because she initially took a backseat as the player was introduced to the Shadowlands and the Jailer.
    I don't think it started out fine, what with the LK being roflstomped like npnp, and then doing exactly nothing during the intro aside from being an incredibly inferior version of Lorewalker Cho in MoP.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time they've wasted entire expansions in patches (Argus, Azshara)

    Honestly, the whole afterlives thing was a terrible, terrible idea. "There's an infinite number of afterlives! So here's four. Also, the afterlife is just like life where you'll get given jobs to do."
    Exactly.. this was the most absurd thing about it - it made hte point of living in the normal world kinda pointless.

    however the expansion was beautiful, zone aesthetics were brilliant following the lore of 4 factions so intimately as good too, although i may have preferred they did this with the warcraft races - the problem was the whole premise.. and Korthia - what a let down.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I don't think it started out fine, what with the LK being roflstomped like npnp, and then doing exactly nothing during the intro aside from being an incredibly inferior version of Lorewalker Cho in MoP.
    Considering Sylvanas was being empowered by the Maw at the time, as well as the fact that Bolvar didn't have Frostmourne (Which was a HUGE part of the Lich King's power), him losing made sense imo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Exactly.. this was the most absurd thing about it - it made hte point of living in the normal world kinda pointless.

    however the expansion was beautiful, zone aesthetics were brilliant following the lore of 4 factions so intimately as good too, although i may have preferred they did this with the warcraft races - the problem was the whole premise.. and Korthia - what a let down.
    I want them to do this with the Warcraft races in settings that make sense for said focus. The covenant zones wouldn't have made sense for that racial focus.

    Also, gonna keep it real with you, I'd rather live my life in full than end it early to go to the Afterlife. Pretty sure part of the judgement process involves seeing if your soul crossed the veil in a non-selfish way or so (I.E appreciating life and living it for as long and/or happily as possible).

    - - - Updated - - -

    You MIGHT get thrown into a temporary bad realm as a result of said selfishness, making it to where your soul would wish it remained in the living world or so. However, if the person had depression or went through a lot, and ended their life via...ya know, I imagine the Arbiter would be FAR more lenient in that regard, giving the soul a pass and bringing them to a good afterlife.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Danuser was narrative lead. He was never creative director. Hope this helps.
    Yeah, that's the same as I was finding. Thank you for confirming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    This whole Danuser vs Afrasiabi debate seem very pointless. Shadowlands was a failure. It doesn't really matter who was responsible for what at the end of the day. They both produced garbage and it led to the most distained WoW expansion in history. That's all that really needs to be said on the matter.
    I mean, it's a pointless argument for folks who don't care. For people who feel they have to one one person to blame and demonize for things they don't like, it kinda matters.

    And I don't know Danuser from Adam, so I don't have a vested interest in defending him, but for some reason it digs at me when I see someone get the brunt of player flames when they don't deserve it. So whenever I see "Danuser sucks 'cause Shadowlands", I speak up. If you wanted to say Danuser sucks 'cause Dragonflight, I don't think I would respond.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  13. #213
    Yes no doubt, none likes robot gods and the arbiter stuff.

  14. #214
    You can make a lot of themes work if you write them well, SL just wasn't written that well compared to expansions with better story.

  15. #215
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Nope the theme and story was fine. Compare to earlier stuff like WoD and the Cata story and Shadowlands was great.

    It was the day to day game play. The grind in Torghast. The fact you were stuck with one and only one Covenant unless you paid a pretty hefty game play/time penalty. The fact the Covenants and their Soulbinds were so imbalanced and so important for player power, where choosing the fantasy you liked could severely nerf you. It was the bleakness of the Maw and not being able to fly there and the continuing that same thing with a really bleak and unflyable zone in Korthia.

    Korthia, as in not just the zone but the whole patch it brought and the content that was tied to it was ridiculously grindy too, on top of the zone being awful and boring. It wasn;t until the Korthia patch that people started to tune out en masse. And it wasn;t until Zereth Mortis that player engagement and the sentiment about the expansion lifted from it being the sad and depressing end of WoW to "Okay, if the next expansion is more like Zereth Mortis then what came before it in SL, I might give it a shot".

    The general story and theme sentiment about Mists of Pandaria and the Pandaren was AWFUL when the expansion started and was criticized throughout, and didn't really lift until many months in when the Thunder Isle patch launched. And yet we look at Mists largely as one of the best expansions in the game, and why? cause the day to day game play and the dungeons and raids were great and class balance was largely very good.

    People don't care about story and theme so much when the game play is good. (but obviously expansions where BOTH are good are preferred like in Wrath and Legion).

  16. #216
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    No.

    The cosmic stuff was not the problem. We have arleady dealt with such scenarios. Kil'jaeden's boss fight in Tomb of Sargeras was atop a flying spaceship and nobody said anything.
    The problems were:

    -The idea of afterlife. The cosmos as a frontier is fine to discuss in fiction. Time travel and afterlife usually are not, because it takes a formidable, FORMIDABLE writer to make them passable. Otherwise you get more questions than answers, and not in a good,myserious way, but in a dumb idiotic one, where nothing is explained and you eventually give up.
    -Covenants. They were horrible when they were introduced. Horribly inflated grind. Also covenant-specific stuff was overkill. To this day, if I spot a treasure chest that requires the slightest puzzle to open, I just give up. I got this habit in Shadowlands when I would check on something and woops, you are not a necrolord, screw you, it stays closed.
    -The villain. It was the worst piece of garbage ever seen in WoW. Grom was pitiful in that he joined us as soon as he started losing, but Zovaal retroactively ruined a lot of the lore. "Show, don't tell" is the big takeaway for Blizzard in this.
    -The content. Drab and bad. The Maw was terrible to be in, which I suppose was the goal since it is WoW's hell, but it's not an enticing player experience. What were they even thinking when they made Korthia. Zereth Mortis I also did not like. Tazavesh was cool at least.

    Raids were... decent. M+ was good and challenging, with some of the best seasonal affixes every released. But these are absolutely not enough to make it good

  17. #217
    Honestly, they could've focus more on the dead characters we care already about, rather than new ones we don't really. Saurfang, Arthas, Varian, more Kael'thas, Garrosh, all those people we couldnt save in the past, the people who sacrificed themselves and how people dealt with those situations, for good and bad... a bigger focus on human nature and relations, i mean in general with all races, not just humans. Instead we went to abstract versions of heaven and hell with barely any human angle to relate to.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    If I remember correctly it was part of a larger lore video on the whole sigil storyline and what it originally was supposed to look like.

    Essentially Sylvanas was supposed to be the key to recreating Zovaal's sigil because she was shared some of his essence. Which makes sense she was his soulbind given her abrupt power-up in BfA and literally sharing his chains of domination.

    My issue with the rumor/theory is that soulbinding from what we've seen is an actual physicial process enabled by First One technology. So I don't know how she would done that prior to breaking the Veil. I guess maybe an Eternal One is powerful enough to circumvent the process. But still seemed like a rather big plot hole if its true.
    This is sick.

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