M+ key depletion

[StrawberryZebra]

The degenerate gameplay that would result from keys not depleting would be horrific. And it would divvy dungeons into "lets push mists until +15, because if a god run happens we can do that"

It would probably be even worse than that. If there's one thing I've learned about WoW players it's that there's a section of the player base that can be persistent. REALLY persistent. They were happy to spend every waking hour grinding out honour in Vanilla. They bashed their heads against rep grinds in TBC, WotLK and Cata, dailies in MoP, AP grinds in Legion, BFA. They'll gladly stick with a key long after it's failed in the hopes of filling up their vault slots, or getting a drop they need etc etc.

The number of "+10 no leavers" keys would just explode and it would end up with tonnes of people stubbornly chipping away at keys they've really got no business being in. The kinds of people who know that if they get that one perfect attempt at a boss it'll be a kill and are happy to spend hours trying to get it. And then do it for 7 more keys.

The downgrades protect players from themselves, and it's a safeguard that's 100% required. Those small stakes, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, are stopping a lot of self inflicted misery.

[Twdft]

How about a compromise: if you actually finish the dungeon your key does not go down a level but if you quit it before end boss it goes down 2.

[Tech614]

How about a compromise: if you actually finish the dungeon your key does not go down a level but if you quit it before end boss it goes down 2.

Kitchen license revoked, this is not a cook and you just made pugs leaving your group even more punishing.

[Elbob]

It would probably be even worse than that. If there's one thing I've learned about WoW players it's that there's a section of the player base that can be persistent. REALLY persistent. They were happy to spend every waking hour grinding out honour in Vanilla. They bashed their heads against rep grinds in TBC, WotLK and Cata, dailies in MoP, AP grinds in Legion, BFA. They'll gladly stick with a key long after it's failed in the hopes of filling up their vault slots, or getting a drop they need etc etc.

The number of "+10 no leavers" keys would just explode and it would end up with tonnes of people stubbornly chipping away at keys they've really got no business being in. The kinds of people who know that if they get that one perfect attempt at a boss it'll be a kill and are happy to spend hours trying to get it. And then do it for 7 more keys.

The downgrades protect players from themselves, and it's a safeguard that's 100% required. Those small stakes, however minor they are in the grand scheme of things, are stopping a lot of self inflicted misery.

^^^this is actually really well put. People also do all of the above until they burn themselves out and quit/complain about the game. Back in Legion/bfa you could do ~half the work in grinding ap the tryhards did and only be 1 level behind in your neck/wep, but people killed themselves trying to keep up. Its sad but blizzard really does need these guardrails to protect people from themselves.

[Seezer]

Sorry if this is yet another "m+ topic bruh"

But if I am being honest I see no purpose of having keystone depleted and downgrade your key when you dont time your dungeon. What does it serve? Other than just a punishment?

One of the main reason why a lot of toxicity behaviors in the game and specially in m+ BECAUSE of key depletion. So why not remove key depletion downgrade all together.

People need to stop overusing words. Toxicity being one of them. Anger is normal. It’s as normal for humans as any other emotion. 10+ keys are punishing. And people feel pressure to not having their keys bricked, to individual pressure of performance, add in anonymity and the internet, people are going to let their inhibitions down and talk shit. Welcome to the internet.

In 2024 we recklessly throw words around for maximum impact and making them mean nothing.

And all this shit has manifested in bizarre ways like Blizz taking out the ability to fart on people or spit on them in game because there are people out there who pretend to be offended because there’s social currency in it.

Realize the internet was a terrible invention for humanity. But if you’re going to use it, realize also that you’re going to get the worst of human behavior with it too.

[Velshin]

People need to stop overusing words. Toxicity being one of them. Anger is normal. It’s as normal for humans as any other emotion. 10+ keys are punishing. And people feel pressure to not having their keys bricked, to individual pressure of performance, add in anonymity and the internet, people are going to let their inhibitions down and talk shit. Welcome to the internet.

In 2024 we recklessly throw words around for maximum impact and making them mean nothing.

And all this shit has manifested in bizarre ways like Blizz taking out the ability to fart on people or spit on them in game because there are people out there who pretend to be offended because there’s social currency in it.

Realize the internet was a terrible invention for humanity. But if you’re going to use it, realize also that you’re going to get the worst of human behavior with it too.

I am not overusing it but when someone fail once on certain mechanics and getting called with words like "idiot, donkey, brainless" then yes this is toxic.

[Amariw]

That's still four or five times the key not being depleted, and the lower level key not being available in the group finder. It may seem like nothing to you, but it's actually a enormous number. If every group decides to try at least 3 times before depleting, we still have 3x less lower level keys in the finder we'd normally have. Then you deplete, successfully complete the lower one - and what now, try the higher key again several times before depleting? It's 100% certain that with that system, we'd have an excess of higher level keys in the finder, and in turn lack of lower level keys.

In a healthy system, there's more or less an even number of all key levels being run simultaneously, so no matter what skill/gear level you are, there's a healthy amount of runs going on for everybody to find a spot. That's exactly the case at the moment:
https://www.wowhead.com/news/mythic-...eason-1-348645
As you can see, there's a wide range of keys to choose from; and keys of all ranges are being run all the time. This is also due to the deplete system; changing the system to only deplete on will would upset the balance in favour of high level keys.



In the current system, keys gained are random, so running your own keys is not that effective for score. If you're unlucky, you will simply not get the key you need, so doing your own key is not really a good solution here. You will often want to join other people's keys; and you want those keys to be available in spades. DPS already have to spend considerable time looking for m+ groups if they don't have a great score. In a world where less low level keys are being run, it would only get worse for them, as they would be competing for less spots to work on the score.

I get the argument and it's sensible, but run it through with me.

Say the extreme happens and 5 people want to run a +2 and there is absolutely none in the queue. What's stopping any of them from using their own key?

[Rageonit]

I get the argument and it's sensible, but run it through with me.

Say the extreme happens and 5 people want to run a +2 and there is absolutely none in the queue. What's stopping any of them from using their own key?

Well, nothing, but like you say, it's an extreme. The problems would start higher up, especially if you, say, play an alt, know the dungeons well and just want to upgrade your score as fast as possible. You can start with your own key and just run whatever you get, but that's ineffective in the current system (you're at the mercy of rng, rarely getting the exact key you need for score). And I'm simply afraid that in the group finder, we'd have an abundance of 10s, and not that many 6s or 8s.

I'm also not sure how it would affect healer and tank availability for lower keys. Right now, when I level up a healer alt, I'm still often declined in higher keys if my alt score is low (even though my main score is high). So I kind of have to run at least some lower keys to upgrade my score, even though I could straight up heal 10s in delve gear (with a decent group). In a world where the number of high keys is inflated, more low score tanks and healers would get invites to 10s and above, solely due to the demand. And that could result in less tanks/healers being available for low keys.

I don't know, for all the flaws of the systems, stats show that the number of keys is very healthy on all levels. Being Blizzard, I'd probably be afraid to upset the balance with some big systemic changes. If it works, it works.

[Alroxas]

I'm also not sure how it would affect healer and tank availability for lower keys. Right now, when I level up a healer alt, I'm still often declined in higher keys if my alt score is low (even though my main score is high). So I kind of have to run at least some lower keys to upgrade my score, even though I could straight up heal 10s in delve gear (with a decent group). In a world where the number of high keys is inflated, more low score tanks and healers would get invites to 10s and above, solely due to the demand. And that could result in less tanks/healers being available for low keys.

I don't know, for all the flaws of the systems, stats show that the number of keys is very healthy on all levels. Being Blizzard, I'd probably be afraid to upset the balance with some big systemic changes. If it works, it works.

Does the basic UI show main score on alts? I know the r.io addon has this functionality but I'm not so sure that standard UI has this.

Moreover, it's one thing to have experience at higher keys in one role than another. While some experience does translate it's not necessarily 100%. For an example, does a DPS even know about (or care about) the tank debuff that E.D.N.A. (from Stonevault) places on the tank (and how/when a healer should actually dispel it)?

Well, nothing, but like you say, it's an extreme. The problems would start higher up, especially if you, say, play an alt, know the dungeons well and just want to upgrade your score as fast as possible. You can start with your own key and just run whatever you get, but that's ineffective in the current system (you're at the mercy of rng, rarely getting the exact key you need for score). And I'm simply afraid that in the group finder, we'd have an abundance of 10s, and not that many 6s or 8s.

Oddly isn't that what the CC Quazii does in his Zero to Hero series? Takes an alt, runs his own keys to get up to KSH via PuG groups? Sure it's not as effective as having a set team that you can just immediately run higher keys right off the bat.

And in terms of key availability, sure I can see why +10s are popular (mythic track in vault) but shouldn't +8s be popular as well for farming gilded crests?

[Ezyah]

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