Let's Decide what Classic+ is once and for all (Lol no I wont)

[Doomcookie]

No, you did not, and when someone can't answer a simple question, it always tells you a lot:

If someone says "I want a new wow expansion" and blizzard delivers a single quest expansion, would you say that that person got exactly what they asked for?

I'm afraid I did.

Did you not like the answer?

[NineSpine]

I'm afraid I did.

Did you not like the answer?

This is a yes or no question, and it is embarrassing to pretend you answered it as a way to avoid answering it:

If someone says "I want a new wow expansion" and blizzard delivers a single quest expansion, would you say that that person got exactly what they asked for?

[Doomcookie]

This is a yes or no question, and it is embarrassing to pretend you answered it as a way to avoid answering it:

If someone says "I want a new wow expansion" and blizzard delivers a single quest expansion, would you say that that person got exactly what they asked for?

I answered your question. You don't have to like it.

You are assuming a false narrative based on your own definitions.

[NineSpine]

I answered your question. You don't have to like it. Maybe you should define the words.

This is a really is a great capstone to this "conversation": I asked you a simple yes or no question and you melt down, completely unable to answer it.

[Doomcookie]

This is a really is a great capstone to this "conversation": I asked you a simple yes or no question and you melt down, completely unable to answer it.

You are assuming a false narrative based on your own definitions.

[NineSpine]

You are assuming a false narrative based on your own definitions.

If you can't provide a yes or no answer to a simple question, you are either deeply mentally troubled or deeply mentally handicapped, and in either case I feel guilty continuing to ask you questions that cause you this much trouble. Bye bye.

[Doomcookie]

If you can't provide a yes or no answer to a simple question, you are either deeply mentally troubled or deeply mentally handicapped, and in either case I feel guilty continuing to ask you questions that cause you this much trouble. Bye bye.

You seem to be begging the question based on your own personal conflicting definitions.

It would seem you are best fit to answer your own question.

[munkeyinorbit]

Do you genuinely believe that if someone says "I would like Classic+, because I want new content added" that replying "WELL THEY ADDED ONE ITEM AND THATS NEW CONTENT!" is some kind of dunk? Like what are we even talking about? Are you ok?

Ok buddy. Let it out. I know it hurts when you self dunk yourself when your own source is used against you. I bet you were thinking "I got this guy. Just going to line him up and get some more internet points..." and then POW. It never gets old when it happens. The only thing to make this a perfect ninespine moment is for you to get yourself banned. It'll happen. You can't control yourself.

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You seem to be begging the question based on your own personal conflicting definitions.

It would seem you are best fit to answer your own question.

She won't. She can't control herself. She has to fight someone and today it's you.

[NineSpine]

Ok buddy. Let it out. I know it hurts when you self dunk yourself when your own source is used against you. I bet you were thinking "I got this guy. Just going to line him up and get some more internet points..." and then POW. It never gets old when it happens. The only thing to make this a perfect ninespine moment is for you to get yourself banned. It'll happen. You can't control yourself.

The dude expressed that there was no difference between systems and content, and I showed that the norm in game design is that there are systems designers and content designers who design different things. If your takeaway from that is "BUT ITEMS ARE CONTENT", it is extremely embarrassing. Being this desperate for a win looks pathetic.

I can just grant that the Chronoboon is content because it changes nothing (in fact I already did but you can't read). Ok, the Chronoboon is content, now what? What is truly sad about people like you and him is that you think that if I give that inch, you've won something. Meanwhile, you guys will tie yourselves in knots until you look ridiculous avoiding conceding the most benign shit. That's why he can't answer a simple yes or no question.

I would much rather be in the position of saying "Good point, but how does that impact the overall issue" than in the position of desperately flailing around trying to avoid answering a yes or no question because I don't have the confidence to make any concessions whatsoever. If I said the sky was blue, you guys would bounce off the walls claiming its red, and you think that that is strength, but it isn't.

[Doomcookie]

Ok buddy. Let it out. I know it hurts when you self dunk yourself when your own source is used against you. I bet you were thinking "I got this guy. Just going to line him up and get some more internet points..." and then POW. It never gets old when it happens. The only thing to make this a perfect ninespine moment is for you to get yourself banned. It'll happen. You can't control yourself.

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She won't. She can't control herself. She has to fight someone and today it's you.

The whole thing is strange. It's someone looking for a fight, when the poll clearly shows that people really don't have a solidified view of what Classic+ is.

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The dude expressed that there was no difference between systems and content, and I showed that the norm in game design is that there are systems designers and content designers who design different things. If your takeaway from that is "BUT ITEMS ARE CONTENT", it is extremely embarrassing. Being this desperate for a win looks pathetic.

I can just grant that the Chronoboon is content because it changes nothing (in fact I already did but you can't read). Ok, the Chronoboon is content, now what? What is truly sad about people like you and him is that you think that if I give that inch, you've won something. Meanwhile, you guys will tie yourselves in knots until you look ridiculous avoiding conceding the most benign shit. That's why he can't answer a simple yes or no question.

I would much rather be in the position of saying "Good point, but how does that impact the overall issue" than in the position of desperately flailing around trying to avoid answering a yes or no question because I don't have the confidence to make any concessions whatsoever. If I said the sky was blue, you guys would bounce off the walls claiming its red, and you think that that is strength, but it isn't.

You are the one who felt the need to argue, and demand people stick with your definitions. But, by your definition, Classic+ already happened, and dates back at least as far as the advent of the Chronobeacon. You can get pissed, but it's literally the definition you said "all people agree" is Classic+.

In the end, your determination that everyone agree with your own definitions means that you are now pitted against yourself. Everything else is you trying to "but still" into an argument, and then change the subject into different questions. it's moving the goalposts, and begging the question at the same time.

[Allarielle]

"If someone says "I want a new wow expansion" and blizzard delivers a single quest expansion, would you say that that person got exactly what they asked for?" No, not even close. The straw man is on fire, and only someone purposefully trying to derail the discussion could argue otherwise.

"Does the Chronoboon item count as new content?" I don't really think so, no. You could argue that its inclusion as an item reward counts as content, but I think when people talk about it, they're not talking about the item so much as the thing you use it to do, and the latter is a modification to a system rather than a piece of new content.

"Are contend designers and systems designers the same people?" It largely depends on the size of the studio. That being said, typically game studios are divided into three groups: art, design, and programming. Content designers produce neither art nor functionality, but only the documentation that is used to produce those things and the spreadsheet wizardry that puts the final product into the game. A systems designer says 'we need Chronoboon' > an artist makes the icons and visual effects > a programmer makes it work > a content designer puts the two together into a functional item. It's all almost entirely pedantic, because at the end of the day it's results that matter.

I'm not really sure of the functional distinction between A, B, and C in this poll. It seems to me that what Blizzard is doing right now (with SoD) is a sort of progressive alpha for something that will eventually morph into either A or B. Likewise, SoD already tackles D, albeit in a way I personally don't much like. It could be argued (and I have argued) that SoD doesn't really count because it also changes things that people (I) don't want changed to the effect that it no longer really counts as being Classic.

Ultimately, to be Classic+, I think that it couldn't be reasonably argued that any new content counts. The new content added has to be "Classic", whatever that means to any given person. I am still, however, firmly of the opinion that Classic+ is something that might happen in the future, and very much not what exists currently, even if what exists currently could eventually be used as part of Classic+.

Turtle WoW and Ascension are "In progress towards being Classic+". SoD is "The barest hint of a proof of concept for Classic+". All of the other Classic seasons/servers have nothing to do with Classic+ whatsoever, inclusion of Chronoboon or Dual Spec regardless.

[NineSpine]

The whole thing is strange. It's someone looking for a fight, when the poll clearly shows that people really don't have a solidified view of what Classic+ is.

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You are the one who felt the need to argue, and demand people stick with your definitions. But, by your definition, Classic+ already happened, and dates back at least as far as the advent of the Chronobeacon. You can get pissed, but it's literally the definition you said "all people agree" is Classic+.

In the end, your determination that everyone agree with your own definitions means that you are now pitted against yourself. Everything else is you trying to "but still" into an argument, and then change the subject into different questions. it's moving the goalposts, and begging the question at the same time.

If someone says "I want a new wow expansion" and blizzard delivers a single quest expansion, would you say that that person got exactly what they asked for?

[Doomcookie]

If someone says "I want a new wow expansion" and blizzard delivers a single quest expansion, would you say that that person got exactly what they asked for?

I think that's only a question you can answer, based on the definitions you are demanding we abide by. Begging the question and moving goalposts is just sad.

Why do you keep trying to bring up expansions, when you wanted to talk about Classic+? As you can see, not everyone thinks that Classic+ involves an expansion.

[Lodreh]

Season of Discovery is Classic+

[Grinning Serpent]

So in a bleak hope I decided to make a Poll and some options on what the fuck even is "Classic+" cause no one can agree

First and foremost Classic+ is a fan term no one at Blizzard ever mentioned "Classic+" just in classic internet fashion people took the term and ran with it and no one seems to agree on what it actually means other than "Classic but more"

So I have some options you can vote on once I put the poll on

A: Classic Tier 4 and beyond: Vanilla wow but more raid tiers are added on in a more classic style. They will remain 40 man raids mechanics mostly stay the same but now things like a "Kharazhan Raid" for 40 people appear or make some more encounters adding in multiple new raid tiers within Azeroth

B: New Timeline of expansion but keep "Vanilla Style": Make expansions for classic that doesn't change the forumla too much if at all. Example BC but no Blood Elves/Dranaei, raids are still 40 man and most BC Changes just don't happen or the story is re-written in a different timeline. Either way a sort of "Classic Timeline" of expansion that "wont make the same mistakes retail did"

C: Season of Discovery or what Blizzard is basically doing now: I don't expect this one to be popular in the poll but New classic servers with fun experimental changes to keep the servers fresh and interesting.

D: I just want vanilla with no changes but I can play other classes god damnit: So basically no experimental changes but actually do a balancing run along the classes so that the "Bad classes" are actually viable in classic

E: Acktually!: I'm wrong in my assumptions actually classic plus is Insert longwinded classic plus explanation here

I picked C because it is by far the most likely. It's clear that classic is and always will be a side show to the main attraction, so expectations should be kept reasonable. While I would like for them to make new raids, an alternate expansion path, etc - that will require a lot of work hours and will likely never materialize. What we're seeing in SoD is probably about what we can expect going forward - some occasional new raids or dungeons, likely reusing existing assets (like how DFC is literally just that area in Ashenvale turned into an instanced dungeon), but probably not too much that's completely new.

What I would *hope* for is an iterative process - a new season every year (12-14 month lifecycle for each season), retaining the most useful and popular bits of previous seasons while adding or changing things to keep things different and interesting. Rather than hoping on making a perfect Classic+, just keep iterating on it and if a particular version was especially popular, maybe create an era server for it.

For SoD, I would keep the phased level caps (although maybe remove one - capping at level 50 does not make much sense unless you seriously reorganize how pre-raid gearing and prep works at 60) and the concept of level-up raids, shift raids to be 10 or 20 man (but allow up to 20 and 40 respectively), and retain new abilities but in the form of skill books (which may or may not require long, convoluted quests with opaque requirements to unlock for the first character on a given account) rather than a finicky rune system, but dump the accelerated leveling stuff (or at least seriously alter it - like if you could buy BoA Student Fodder with reals or something, a sleeping bag that stacks to 5% instead of 3%, etc) and either cut most of the runes or fold them in as baseline skills or talent adjustments.

I think my next season's big conceit would be to make the world less predictable - much bigger and less predictable loot tables, randomized progression in professions (while also making gear from professions not "90% of it is useless for anything but DEing"), etc. I'm not precisely sure how to set it up but you could probably look at stuff like Elden Ring randomizer modes for ideas. I think a key part would be that any item can drop at any level, and prior to level 60 requirement gear, could be +/- a few item levels based on the level of the character that killed the beastie - so maybe some spider drops you an ilvl 48 Smite's Mighty Hammer while you're out questing, and Smite himself coughed up an ilvl 19 Krol Blade way back when. Would loot tables be randomized but consistent (pools are shuffled, not truly random) or would they be more or less totally random? I don't know - shuffled loot pools feels like it would fit WoW better though.

Figuring out how everything worked in SoD was a huge part of the appeal and I think they'd be smart to try and pull that trick again in some way.