No-Deplete Practice Keys

[RobertMugabe]

IMO just get rid of key depletions. It's a relic from Legion and it no longer makes sense.

Furthermore add a "pause" key where the entire group can pause, which means nobody can move, CD's don't reset, mobs and players are frozen in time etc.

[Alroxas]

what's the point of keys existing over level 10?
the point would be the same - there is a subset of people who enjoy making a number of a certain color be next to their name, and that will in and of itself motivate them to do many things.

For 1, the Season Title cutoffs.

And with the upcoming patch 11.0.7, "better" crest farm. Although, I'm personally not convinced that the delta difference in a higher key is worth the time compared to doing a lower key. Sure a untimed +12 can give 16 gilded crests but a timed +10 also gives the same amount.

but there are people who enjoy a chill atmosphere and maybe enjoy helping lower geared alts or teaching a person a new role or whatever, and as of right now there is no implementation of that style of play on the higher end of the gear progression system that isn't punished for existing (ie, you get reduced rewards for failing to beat an arbitrary timer).

The problem is that without the timer, a central challenge to M+ has also been removed. How much less difficult is a M+ when you can (in theory) use Bloodlust/Heroism (and all your other DPS CDs) on every trash pack pull and bosses? The timer prevents that. You need to budget your available CDs in such a way to be effective with them.

Just consider Delves - Delves (even at T11) are less difficult because you could spend 1+ hour in there per delve because you can afford to wait for your CDs.

As for "reduced" rewards - Sure the amount of crests you get is lowered than had you timed the key but you still get end of dungeon loot AND great vault credit. Additionally, the changes in 11.0.7 increase both the timed and untimed crests rewards. And considering that crests limit is now also uncapped, the only difference now is that competitive players (in 11.0.7) might be able to get their Nascent Gilded Harbinger Crest in 3x +12 timed runs compared to less competitive players who might need 6x +9 completed (but not timed).

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IMO just get rid of key depletions. It's a relic from Legion and it no longer makes sense.

Actually key depletion was removed from Legion M+. For those that forgot, keystones had a charge that was consumed if the key wasn't timed. You had to run an unpowered (or depleted) keystone with ZERO loot in time to "recharge" it so you can run an empowered keystone for loot.

Furthermore add a "pause" key where the entire group can pause, which means nobody can move, CD's don't reset, mobs and players are frozen in time etc.

And who exactly would control the "pause"? The group leader? Or can players vote to start a pause? How about ending the pause? Because there's no way that a pause button couldn't be abused by the person(s) who get the power to use it.

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...which is not available at all times and is just extra unnecessary steps. If it is already possible to do practice runs - but only under specific circumstances - why not allow it on live servers? Most arguments here are: "Nobody will ever do it" (read: "I won't do it"); but are there any actual reasons to not to allow practice keys? Other than the whole made up: "We can't ask Blizzard to code new things because the game will explode" bullcrap.

Alternatively, go to the PTR. You can still do M+ keys on the PTR. And typically there is a character copy option so you can transfer your live character over. Sure you won't get to keep anything you earned on the PTR but hey it's for "practice" anyway right?

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-Not available under +10 mostly to help protect pugs from themselves

I'd bump this up to +12 for similar reasons why the affix at +12 removes the Xal'atath's Bargain affix

[Malkiah]

The problem is that without the timer, a central challenge to M+ has also been removed. How much less difficult is a M+ when you can (in theory) use Bloodlust/Heroism (and all your other DPS CDs) on every trash pack pull and bosses? The timer prevents that. You need to budget your available CDs in such a way to be effective with them.

i mean obviously you're not wrong, but i have to confess i don't see the issue with a group choosing to approach a dungeon that way, and further i don't think most groups even would do it that way if they had the option.
sitting around for 10 minutes in between each pull was not done prior to legion so i have no reason to be convinced it would be used now, and even if it were a tactic to be utilized... so what? if a group wants to make their dungeon run an effort of tediousness and patience instead of one of coordination and precision, i don't see any compelling cause to not allow that approach.

for me it's simple a perspective of options, i don't hate timer runs but i do think them being the only option for character progression outside of raiding is less-than-perfect for the community, and think that an alternative would be good.

[Veiled Shadow]

sitting around for 10 minutes in between each pull was not done prior to legion so i have no reason i be convinced it would be used now

That's because there had never been any difficult 5-man content prior to Legion (mop / wod CMs aside, which also included a timer of course).

[Malkiah]

That's because there had never been any difficult 5-man content prior to Legion (mop / wod CMs aside, which also included a timer of course).

i do believe that early cata dungeons and TBC heroics would like a word with you on that.
i'm not saying that the difficulty of those dungeons is comparable to a +10 or whatever key level you'd care to name, my point is that when dungeons are considered "hard" by the community, the widespread response has never been "sit around doing nothing for long stretches and only pull when all CDs are available".

and again though, even if it was, i don't see how that is any less problematic of an approach to group content that the current paradigm which is "go, gogogogog. even if you're not ready, even if you don't have the tools to survive, just go anyways".

[Veiled Shadow]

i do believe that early cata dungeons and TBC heroics would like a word with you on that.
i'm not saying that the difficulty of those dungeons is comparable to a +10 or whatever key level you'd care to name, my point is that when dungeons are considered "hard" by the community, the widespread response has never been "sit around doing nothing for long stretches and only pull when all CDs are available".

and again though, even if it was, i don't see how that is any less problematic of an approach to group content that the current paradigm which is "go, gogogogog. even if you're not ready, even if you don't have the tools to survive, just go anyways".

I should probably have expounded a little - there was never any 5-man content that gave meaningful, end-game rewards prior to Legion. While I'm sure that many found tbc / cata heroics to be difficult, they were just a stepping stone to serious players, many of whom would clear them in leveling greens in a premade en route to early Blackwing Descent prog or similar. Players are never going to spend hours optimizing each pull in entry level content.

By contrast, high mythic+ keys reward some of the best gear in the game in the weekly vault, so there's a lot more incentive to clear them for players of every category. This is most pronounced very early on in tiers / expansions, where I'm sure many players would be incentivized to slog for hours in order to get the +10 in the vault, even if keys like +7/+8 were beyond their ability to do 'normally.'

Honestly though, I think it's fair enough if you don't mind this sort of gameplay, and lately Blizzard seems to be moving more in that direction by increasing the difficulty of regular mythic dungeons a lot, and including megadungeons (which are probably the best example of this experience in modern wow).

@ the comment about gogogogo stuff, I assume you're referring to pugs, as most high keys are thoroughly planned out beforehand pull-wise. I think that good communication in pugs helps a lot - if e.g. you as the tank have no cds at all and communicate this / need to do a small pull to recover, I find it hard to believe that most people would object. After all, they want the group to succeed - I would guess that most instances of this happen when a tank doesn't meet their expectations of a quick pull without any kind of explanation. Maybe this is flawed, but I do think it can be alleviated with good communication as I mentioned (and I often don't see this in pugs).

[Malkiah]

I should probably have expounded a little

no disagreements but i think the overall point stands: there's no precedent to use as evidence to suspect that groups would just sit around waiting for lust in between every pull.

@ the comment about gogogogo stuff, I assume you're referring to pugs, as most high keys are thoroughly planned out beforehand pull-wise.

well, we'd have to establish what we mean by "high keys" here before we can really nettle out any details so i don't want to go too into this.
but generally, yes - i am always referring to pugs, because i am exclusively a pug player. i don't know anyone in game that i play with regularly, so all my perspectives on the state of play or design comes solely from that direction.

I think that good communication in pugs helps a lot - if e.g. you as the tank have no cds at all and communicate this / need to do a small pull to recover, I find it hard to believe that most people would object.

they do, regularly - and often will decide that you don't actually need that small pull anyways and just pull more behind your back.

After all, they want the group to succeed - I would guess that most instances of this happen when a tank doesn't meet their expectations of a quick pull without any kind of explanation. Maybe this is flawed, but I do think it can be alleviated with good communication as I mentioned (and I often don't see this in pugs).

for years now i have taken to giving a disclaimer before M+ runs over say a +6 or so explaining my approach overall (more relaxed vibe, i care more about timing without stressing myself or the healer out than i do about getting a +3 over a +2 in a pug or the like) and it makes very little difference to how people behave.
i also type extremely fast and do so often on the fly during runs to get the group on the same page about something, it's remarkable how often you get "go wtf" when you haven't pulled for 3.7 seconds.

someone who showed up to the pug to think they're in an MDI stream will play that way regardless of what you say before hand and then scream at you for not playing how they wanted you to.

[Alroxas]

so what? if a group wants to make their dungeon run an effort of tediousness and patience instead of one of coordination and precision, i don't see any compelling cause to not allow that approach.

Because it's degenerate? It's unfun? Take the recent survey where Blizzard asks the question: "Instead of a timer, let's have a death counter"

Which wowhead has compiled the big negatives:

• Waiting for Cooldowns - Similar to early Torghast or undergeared Delves, with no timer, players may be incentivized to wait for cooldowns between each pack leading to significant downtime and potential boredom.
• No Risk Keys - Players would likely be more adverse to any deaths leading to smaller low risk pulls that may focus on increased CC similar to Classic.
• Toxicity from Accidental Deaths - Currently, deaths and even full wipes can be overcome with higher damage. Mistakes do happen even to the most savvy of players, but these accidental deaths could lead to full key failure under a death limit. With each death being more heavily scrutinized, it could lead to more toxicity in keys with the tracking of individual deaths.

for me it's simple a perspective of options, i don't hate timer runs but i do think them being the only option for character progression outside of raiding is less-than-perfect for the community, and think that an alternative would be good.

But there is an alternative? Delves are actually quite rewarding up to a point for content that can be challenging without a timer. But for the highest rewarding gear, it should be from the highest difficulty of content.

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no disagreements but i think the overall point stands: there's no precedent to use as evidence to suspect that groups would just sit around waiting for lust in between every pull.

Do players min/max? If so why wouldn't you wait for lust at every pull if you could? Consider the NPC that resets your exhaustion debuff when you're over time in a M+. Do players not reset their debuff whenever possible (assuming they have enough classes or items to pop another heroism/blood lust)?

i am always referring to pugs, because i am exclusively a pug player. i don't know anyone in game that i play with regularly, so all my perspectives on the state of play or design comes solely from that direction.

Well that's also another point at issue. M+ was originally designed for small groups of known players (aka friends or guildmates) not the random PuG scene we have today. That's more of a failure on players and their lack of effort in making friends/communities. It's one of the reasons why we have seen discord servers form to explicitly make it easier for players to make groups with shared goals.


Which is the last issue at hand - PuGs because of their nature often comprise of players with different goals and different tolerances for mistakes. So 9 times out of 10 when a group disbands before completion, it's because of a conflict of either goals or tolerances.

[Malkiah]

Because it's degenerate? It's unfun?

fair from your perspective, but i consider timed runs degenerate and unfun, so... that's kind of the whole point, at least for me: options.

But there is an alternative? Delves are actually quite rewarding up to a point for content that can be challenging without a timer. But for the highest rewarding gear, it should be from the highest difficulty of content.

delves could work in theory but IMO there are two major problems with the way they are currently implemented:
1. all content should naturally and organically lead to more difficult content, and the design should support flowing from one form up into the next in a more less linear progression, at least as much as possible.
right now, delves lead to a gearing wall IMO - once you hit 619 you're out of options for character progression except doing +8 keys, and again IMO for the pug sphere that is too low of a hard basement for doing keys of that level.

2. it is absolutely for the best health of an MMO to have content slowly funneling everyone upwards, that is how you get people moving up into guilds and refreshing the recruitment pool for higher end content. without a system that is constantly supplying new interest you're going to end up with a player base losing the war against attrition.

so you want people moving up, and right now there is a hefty obstacle to that movement in the form of crests and dungeon scaling - of course, that obstacle is currently just the scaling of upgrades vs. what level of key you get them at and so that can fixed via tinkering with the upgrade economy, but IMO even this season's issues are more indicative of a larger issue than just those relating to this season.

Do players min/max? If so why wouldn't you wait for lust at every pull if you could?

because doing so is boring and tedious, time is as much of a currency as effort or will.
but, the question of "if" is largely irrelevant here because i wouldn't care if people chose to do that, even though i don't believe many people would do so.

Consider the NPC that resets your exhaustion debuff when you're over time in a M+. Do players not reset their debuff whenever possible (assuming they have enough classes or items to pop another heroism/blood lust)?

is that not then an argument to reduce the lust debuff to like 2 minutes and the cast CD to 30s or something?

Well that's also another point at issue. M+ was originally designed for small groups of known players (aka friends or guildmates) not the random PuG scene we have today.

be that as it may, M+ is still the end game progression system alongside/outside of raiding in the game as it exists, so whatever the original intent may have been we have to deal with what the system actually is now.

That's more of a failure on players and their lack of effort in making friends/communities. It's one of the reasons why we have seen discord servers form to explicitly make it easier for players to make groups with shared goals.

a lot could be discussed with regards to out-of-game communication and organization and i've no doubt your mileage will vary on the what's and why's entirely dependent on the individuals involved, but strictly IMO what i see in game is that in a lot of ways things like discord communities are a band-aid fix the player base has adopted to compensate for the fact you essentially cannot communicate in an M+ run because typing drains the timer.
this isn't as much of a problem for pre-existing groups (or groups that naturally gel well together even when strangers) but like i said, the reality we have to deal with is that M+ is the progression system a large number of people engage with and certain realities should be accounted for.

Which is the last issue at hand - PuGs because of their nature often comprise of players with different goals and different tolerances for mistakes. So 9 times out of 10 when a group disbands before completion, it's because of a conflict of either goals or tolerances.

true but i'd be inclined to suspect a lot of that conflict comes from the nature of how M+ is designed.
my goal is always to complete the run, and i consider it optimal to time it simply because failure to do so results in decreased currency, but i don't care about my dungeon/io score or the color my parses or my position on a leaderboard.
nearly tied with that first goal is my secondary goal of enjoying myself (purely subjective), maybe having the opportunity to joke around a bit with some folks, teach someone something new they didn't know about the game, get taught something i didn't know - i personally find the lack of "single serving friends" from dungeon runs to be a sad loss within the game overall.

point being, i know for some other people the goal is to time it, to max their score or key upgrade, to have the run take as little time as humanly possible to maximize how many runs they can fit into their allotted schedule, etc.
i think in a lot of cases the timer in M+ is the cause of those oppositional goals and thus by its nature hollows out the experience some (many?) people are explicitly looking for, or would prefer if given the choice.

[Alroxas]

fair from your perspective, but i consider timed runs degenerate and unfun, so... that's kind of the whole point, at least for me: options.

Fair enough but the game design is by Blizzard and not by any one player. So I'm pretty sure that Blizzard has determined that for X content, the cap is Y item level. You want higher item level (more progression) do harder content.

right now, delves lead to a gearing wall IMO - once you hit 619 you're out of options for character progression except doing +8 keys, and again IMO for the pug sphere that is too low of a hard basement for doing keys of that level.

True but one could also argue that you don't need higher than 619 gear if you aren't going to be doing more challenging content such as higher M+ or heroic (or mythic) raiding.

Consider the players who only do LFR, they are capped to around 590 to 600 ilv and that's perfectly acceptable. If those players want higher item levels from raiding then they should start doing higher difficulty of raids.

2. it is absolutely for the best health of an MMO to have content slowly funneling everyone upwards, that is how you get people moving up into guilds and refreshing the recruitment pool for higher end content.

Yes and no. Technically speaking, there are catch-up mechanisms that Blizzard has put in around the X.5 or X.7 patches. The issue is that players need to want to strive for higher progression and not just be given welfare gear because they are too lazy to step up into more challenging content.

right now there is a hefty obstacle to that movement in the form of crests

Which is rendered moot with the current patch today (11.0.7) which not only increases crest rewards from M+ dungeons but also lowered the cost for crest in 2 ways - Upgrading from lower tier takes less and getting the Nascent Gilded Harbinger Crest only takes 60 gilded (instead of 90).

Additionally, it looks like those changes are moving forward for the rest of the xpac so Season 2+ will see the same treatment.

because doing so is boring and tedious, time is as much of a currency as effort or will.
but, the question of "if" is largely irrelevant here because i wouldn't care if people chose to do that, even though i don't believe many people would do so.

Past data has shown this to be false at least with the WoW playerbase. Case in point, Maw of Souls AP farming back in early Legion was so prevalent because a) it was the shortest dungeon to run for AP with no cap and b) the original "infinite" trait on the Artifact weapons gave a flat 10% (when fully maxed) increase in throughput.

It was so bad that Blizzard had to go in an normalize AP gains from Legion dungeons appropriate to the length of the dungeon AND expand the artifact trees to have a new "infinite" trait that was less quantitatively powerful (i.e. Concordance of Legionfall)

is that not then an argument to reduce the lust debuff to like 2 minutes and the cast CD to 30s or something?

Or have players learn how to budget their CDs (both individual and party) to figure out how to get the most out of their tools for challenging content.

be that as it may, M+ is still the end game progression system alongside/outside of raiding in the game as it exists, so whatever the original intent may have been we have to deal with what the system actually is now.

But M+ is vastly different when you consider "organized" groups versus PuGs. So then should high level M+ be tuned to "organized" groups or PuGs? Because PuGs are nowhere as coordinated as an "organized" group can be.

Additionally, if you look at the highest keys being done, few (if any) are actually being done in PuG settings.

true but i'd be inclined to suspect a lot of that conflict comes from the nature of how M+ is designed.

Agree to disagree then because I don't think it's a design issue but a social one. Players engage in content for different reasons and the misalignment of those objectives/goals is what causes most of the friction in M+ leading to failed/abandoned runs.

point being, i know for some other people the goal is to time it, to max their score or key upgrade, to have the run take as little time as humanly possible to maximize how many runs they can fit into their allotted schedule, etc.
i think in a lot of cases the timer in M+ is the cause of those oppositional goals and thus by its nature hollows out the experience some (many?) people are explicitly looking for, or would prefer if given the choice.

Which could easily be solved if players actually communicated what their goals are at the start before the run.

Hence why players have established rules guidelines that "chill" or "for GV" runs are likely to run over time so players signing up should be ok with spending over 40+ minutes in those runs (potentially even staying as long as an hour or more). This is in contrast to runs labeled "timing" where if the goal of timing can't be met, players are less "upset" about abandoning the key.