Death Counter instead of Timer in M+ Possible?

[Relapses]

yes, you did - a pretty graphic level of self-contradictory gibberish.
every point you try to make is incompatible with every other point you try to make.


you being incoherent doesn't make me unreasonable, sorry dude.


so the lying is obviously pathological, are you aware of it on any conscious level or does your brain just not even register that you're full of shit?
or, hm... again, am i wrong here and i should be accusing you of being stupid instead?
read point 6 on my list above and then find two functioning neurons and a piece of lint to rub together and see if you can work out the context of what i meant by "shrill noise".

but hey good on ya for flipping your shit on someone who has over the years developed hearing sensitivity to loud sounds and finds wearing a headset and the constant barrage of sudden high pitched loud noises from open mics to be physically painful, and a risk of ongoing pain due to tinnitus so that one errant screech can leave me hurting for hours after.
real cool and mature of you, you definitely have the moral ground here. yep. real cool dude, you are. keep it up, skippy.

rofl, now you're trying to play the victim. Adorable, really.

It's still a 100% you issue. If I, hypothetically, were a guy who had no arms, I wouldn't be going to arm wrestling competitions asking people to treat me with respect due to my lack of appendages. Your sensitivity to open mics may be a very real issue, that's fine. I'm not mocking that. What's not fine is you asking the entirety of the game to get flipped on its head to better accommodate your needs.

[Malkiah]

so hey, i'm not upset and i know you're not upset, but we're clearly two people willing and capable of getting into an extended snipe fest.

i'm not the better man and i'm not taking the high road, i'm just calling a truce on my end before one or the both of us start getting infracted for going at it too hard.

[Relapses]

i'm not asking for it, and you're still lying.

Again, I'd much rather be thought of as a consistent liar in the mind of a consistent misanthrope then have to actually, you know, be one.

(and not that it matters at this point, but i'm fairly certain you're also incorrect in your belief it would flip the game on its head)

And I'm fairly certain I'm right. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[AudibleEscalation]

You opened with this:

i can't speak for anyone else, but my only criticism of M+ is the timer because the timer is the only thing that prevents the thing from existing in the group-focused end game progression system that i miss: opportunities for social engagement.

I'm saying there is plenty of opportunities for social engagement, but these days, it doesn't look like it did in 2004.

it's just that i've run probably thousands of M+ dungeons and heroic raids in the last 8 years and not a single one of the former ever involved voice chat and only a handful of the latter ever did.

Is this because you chose to run it this way or you just actively skipped finding those opportunities for social engagement whenever they involved voice chat?

i'm well aware that it's a popular counterpart to online gaming, but i find your claim that it's in any way a "de-facto" communication method in wow to be rather dubious.

Pretty much every online gaming social group or guild (MMO, shooters and MOBAs, hell, even strategy games) I've been part of in the past couple of decades have used voice chat for socializing. Even before discord, we used to combine online forums with Ventrilo, Teamspeak and Mumble. Sure, pure pick-up gaming doesn't - but whenever you find a good player in those, you drop a friend request and invite them to your disc. This is how things work. Normally.

also i'm not 'stuck in the past' if i dislike having loud shrill noise blasted into my eardrums at random intervals

Configure your voice settings. Discord has separate volume settings per user.

like, is this a thing where you cannot emotionally handle someone not liking something you like?

?????

(note: the entirety of the above is predicated on playing the game purely via pugging. i repeat this often but it seems prudent to specify in this so we're on the same page. voice comms between friends, guild mates, regular crews, etc - that's all a totally different thing and i am very exclusively not talking about that scenario)

Sure, as I said, pugs already limit your opportunities for social engagement purely because everyone is outside your monkey sphere (Dunbar's Number), but as I said, they are not gone. And really, if you're using "opportunities for social engagement" as a reason to remove timers from M+, then I don't really know what you're talking about. There's plenty. You're just not choosing to engage with it. Sure, maybe part of it is due to your medical issues with hearing and that's fair, but there are configuration buttons to use. From your post, it seemed to be one of many, rather misanthropic, other issues though. And as such, it's a pretty damn shaky argument to throw around, don't you think?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

the way you phrase this sentence makes it sound like you're suggesting this is a bad thing.
if you are, why is this a bad thing?

By itself, it's neither good nor bad. Most of us believe, though, that reward should be commensurate with challenge. If we nerf the challenge, we need to nerf the gear. I don't want something for nothing. The rewards don't mean as much if I don't feel like I earned them.

[Biomega]

By itself, it's neither good nor bad. Most of us believe, though, that reward should be commensurate with challenge. If we nerf the challenge, we need to nerf the gear. I don't want something for nothing. The rewards don't mean as much if I don't feel like I earned them.

It should also be emphasized here that it doesn't so much matter whether people believe rewards should be commensurate with challenge - practice has shown that they behave as if they do, even if they'll profess otherwise.

This is very important, because I suspect that the timer thing is very much similar to that: many people might claim they hate timers and that the game would be better off without any, but if it actually happened, they'd very quickly come to not like the result. Irrespective of whether they'll consciously connect it to the timer.

What people say and how they act is often very different, which is why there's a need for caution when designing things around what people demand vs. what they demonstrate they prefer. Now, of course there's also plenty of times where what they say and how they act do overlap, but it's simply not a given.

I half wish Blizzard would give people a death counter instead of a timer, just to show everyone how truly miserable of a world that turns out to be. I don't think they will, but it would be fun to watch. Although of course people would be very quick to find some other reason why everything sucks and it's not the timer...

I do think M+ can do with many structural improvements. I've been saying for years to remove timers from low M+ levels, for example. Key depletion needs to go. And so on. But for any remotely serious levels of M+ a timer is absolutely essential to provide regulatory performance pressure and curb degeneracy.

[Twdft]

I suspect that the timer thing is very much similar to that: many people might claim they hate timers and that the game would be better off without any, but if it actually happened, they'd very quickly come to not like the result. Irrespective of whether they'll consciously connect it to the timer.

Yeah, they probably never done higher Torghast in a pug when it had a death counter. That one guy that dies to avoidable damage for the fifth time eating up all the lifes...

Also say goodbye to any pug invites when you don't overgear the key by 20 ilvl.

[Tyris Flare]

Having mplus designed so that voice isnt important outside of bleeding edge keys is pretty reasonable. Same with raids honestly.

But that has nothing whatsoever to do with making a death counter instead of a timer

[Osmeric]

while the second string team I'm on is still working on Queen for AotC. The extra gear will help get through to phase 3 more cleanly.

Reporting success on this now; everyone got off their butts and took advantage of the various upgrades and the boss went down in the first pull where we got her to 35% before the last pimple pops. Overall a pretty positive experience for the group.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Having mplus designed so that voice isnt important outside of bleeding edge keys is pretty reasonable. Same with raids honestly.

But that has nothing whatsoever to do with making a death counter instead of a timer

They could do this just by reverting the way stops work.

- - - Updated - - -

Reporting success on this now; everyone got off their butts and took advantage of the various upgrades and the boss went down in the first pull where we got her to 35% before the last pimple pops. Overall a pretty positive experience for the group.

Congratulations!

[Glorious Leader]

Again the problem of waiting for CDs every pull, now even more important because you want defensives up too so you can't die.

The options for not-timed dungeons are heroics or delves, you're never getting rid of the timer

Dude do you honestly think this behavior would be wide spread? who has the fucking time or patience to.sit and wait for that.