[Concept] Multi-Classes

[Triceron]

It is not to say there wouldn't be any on normal servers. Just that there would be dedicated servers for the ultra fanatics, who don't care about leveling or the story.

By having dedicated servers, you drive the actual raiders out, leaving no decent raiders in normal servers.

You really don't see the issues here do you? People who enjoy raid progression, no matter their skill level, are incentivized to join competitive servers, where all the skilled raiders go. If a majority of the skilled raiders join competitive servers, it decreases the amount of skilled players in normal servers, to the point where raiding on normal would just be frustrating. You're creating an environment where normal servers have a large pool of population that does not feel compelled to improve their skills. By segregating competitive players, you're making it harder for anyone on a normal servers to find other skilled raiders since the obvious way to find good raiders is to leave normal and go join competitive.

Think about it this way. Being competitive isn't just about min maxing, it also means being willing to improve yourself to perform at your best. If you were someone of moderate skill wanting to raid, do you want to raid with a bunch of LFR skill level and have fun being stuck forever on a boss? Or would you rather find players where you know you can get actual progress? How would you find good players on a normal server if every good player has left?

This was the same problem factions had for some PVP servers. One side dominates the other, to the point where people just start rolling on the dominant faction, creating huge faction population imbalance. Some servers Alliance dominates, some servers Horde dominates. All that is driven by players wanting whats best for themselves. Why would you want to play on a side that always loses, right? Same applies to raiding. Normal servers would be where all the 'losers' are.

[username993720]

feels like a cross between hero talents across different classes.

So you would have a:


class > spec > hero talents > 2nd class+spec

Problem for me is. How do we do this and hero talents. For me hero talents has to little flair. Spelcaster mage or bird mage look so much alike. This could fix it.

But how do we do speccombo with hero talents.

do we replace some or merge them with each other or do we do them both:
examples:

Merge:
like get away from hero talents. But make the 2nd specs the one hero talents.
So priest could chose instead of archon, oracle, voidweaver. lets say:
Priest + hunter: is ranged dps like Tyrande >light hunter?
Priest + paladin: Archon ( make it more a defense/shield type healer. so a disc on steriods)
priest + shaman: Oracle ( a priest that deals with pets ( light elemental) , lightwell etc)
Priest + .......: voidwaver < can not think of class to fit the void theme.
Priest + mage = holy smiter. a dps that does not heal. but only throws out light spells to dps. ( maybe 1 or 2 group support spells).
Priest + druid = hymm master. A healer that deals in hot's. think priest version of resto druid.



both:
Would it be:

first you chose class: paladin
then spec: protection
then 2nd class: priest
then a hero talent from that: vanguard. ( a extra holy paladin).


so to put it into perspective: Class you can chose from it specs > then you chose a 2nd spec from a select group ( because other wise they need 2 build like to many combo's. like 1 balance patch would take ages to make). > then those selected have a hero talent combo?


think the idea is cool. and it would give more flavor to the hero talent system.
But the balance looks like a nightmare.
And it would not fix some classes people want ( like tinkerer).

This isn't Hero Talents. They are their own unique classes. Would they have matching Hero Talents? I don't know and i don't care. I don't intend it to be mere small talent tree with a few active abilities and a whole lot of passives.

By having dedicated servers, you drive the actual raiders out, leaving no decent raiders in normal servers.

You really don't see the issues here do you? People who enjoy raid progression, no matter their skill level, are incentivized to join competitive servers, where all the skilled raiders go. If a majority of the skilled raiders join competitive servers, it decreases the amount of skilled players in normal servers, to the point where raiding on normal would just be frustrating. You're creating an environment where normal servers have a large pool of population that does not feel compelled to improve their skills. By segregating competitive players, you're making it harder for anyone on a normal servers to find other skilled raiders since the obvious way to find good raiders is to leave normal and go join competitive.

Think about it this way. Being competitive isn't just about min maxing, it also means being willing to improve yourself to perform at your best. If you were someone of moderate skill wanting to raid, do you want to raid with a bunch of LFR skill level and have fun being stuck forever on a boss? Or would you rather find players where you know you can get actual progress? How would you find good players on a normal server if every good player has left?

This was the same problem factions had for some PVP servers. One side dominates the other, to the point where people just start rolling on the dominant faction, creating huge faction population imbalance. Some servers Alliance dominates, some servers Horde dominates. All that is driven by players wanting whats best for themselves. Why would you want to play on a side that always loses, right? Same applies to raiding. Normal servers would be where all the 'losers' are.

Ever heard of cross-server tech?
You aren't stuck to your own server if you're so desperate to find raiding partners. But, at least, the whole atmosphere of the server wouldn't be that of competitiveness.

[Triceron]

Ever heard of cross-server tech?
You aren't stuck to your own server if you're so desperate to find raiding partners. But, at least, the whole atmosphere of the server wouldn't be that of competitiveness.

Welcome back


Cross server with normal realms would gain the ire of Competitive players wanting to matchmake with their own, not with LFR level scrubs on a normal server. The meta discourages inviting anyone from a normal realm. We've created an environment that is easier to gatekeep based on realm. Basic mentality - If you want to raid seriously, why are you still on a normal server?

Now we run into the same problem I said earlier. Normal players who want to raid are left to sift from a pool of players who have no incentive to improve themselves. Or, leave to join a new server. 'Guilds of mixed players will easily be broken up by this.

[username993720]

Welcome back


Cross server with normal realms would gain the ire of Competitive players wanting to matchmake with their own, not with LFR level scrubs on a normal server. The meta discourages inviting anyone from a normal realm. We've created an environment that is easier to gatekeep based on realm. Basic mentality - If you want to raid seriously, why are you still on a normal server?

Now we run into the same problem I said earlier. Normal players who want to raid are left to sift from a pool of players who have no incentive to improve themselves. Or, leave to join a new server. 'Guilds of mixed players will easily be broken up by this.

You can have options to group up with either endgame players, normal servers or mixed. Why would endgame players pick mixed? I don't know. To help noobs. Engame players already have dedicated, exclusive guilds, so it's not like they group up with inexperienced players as it is. Another option would be to have difficulty level servers, where you pick the difficulty you want to play, in terms of competitiveness. So, you can choose what kind of atmospheric server you want to be part of.

[Triceron]

You can have options to group up with either endgame players, normal servers or mixed. Why would endgame players pick mixed? I don't know. To help noobs. Engame players already have dedicated, exclusive guilds, so it's not like they group up with inexperienced players as it is.

It depends. Alts usually don't have the benefit of having organized groups unless you're running multiple raids at a time. For playing an Alt, its easier to PUG than scheduling more organized raids. Yet the process of PUGing still requires vetting, even if applied over cross realm.

Another option would be to have difficulty level servers, where you pick the difficulty you want to play, in terms of competitiveness. So, you can choose what kind of atmospheric server you want to be part of.

That doesn't work since progression is progression. Sounds like you don't raid at all.

Like if my small guild progressed through normal, we move on to heroic. As we gear up, we eventually try mythic, even if we can only do 2 bosses. How are we placed in difficulty? Are we a mythic raiding guild? Are we Heroic? How does everyone understand what difficulty they want, even? If we want to attempt Mythic by brute force out gearing early encounters, we are now a Mythic guild? And if not are we going to be limited from doing the content or gatekept by server?

People don:t see themselves categorized by difficulty level.

Like if I asked you what your difficulty level was, how can you explain it in terms everyone understands? You only raid Normal and just stop? Every tier is s stepping stone, a level of progression. They are not parallel progression paths. There isn't really 'dedicated Heroic' raiding, it all depends how well a group happens to perform and what their progress is. Sometimes my guild beats Heroic easily and we move onto mythic, sometimes a bad composition or unlucky tank drops handicap progress and we never get to attempt mythic. Every raid is different.


If the game was built so that normal raid -> normal raid 2 -> normal raid 3, then sure, difficulty works. But it isn't built that way, the progression is normal raid -> heroic raid -> mythic raid -> normal/heroic raid 2 -> mythic raid 2.

And population numbers are also skewed, since only 10% of the population does mythic. And even then, it only slightly opens up after they implement catch-up mechanics and start nerfing encounters. There's a huge skill gap between players who can clear mythic during its first month, and players who clear it after all the nerfs are in place.

[username993720]

It depends. Alts usually don't have the benefit of having organized groups unless you're running multiple raids at a time. For playing an Alt, its easier to PUG than scheduling more organized raids. Yet the process of PUGing still requires vetting, even if applied over cross realm.

Mains have the privilege of having connections or being a part of a Guild. They can probably hook their alts up.

That doesn't work since progression is progression. Sounds like you don't raid at all.

Like if my small guild progressed through normal, we move on to heroic. As we gear up, we eventually try mythic, even if we can only do 2 bosses. How are we placed in difficulty? Are we a mythic raiding guild? Are we Heroic? How does everyone understand what difficulty they want, even? If we want to attempt Mythic by brute force out gearing early encounters, we are now a Mythic guild? And if not are we going to be limited from doing the content or gatekept by server?

People don:t see themselves categorized by difficulty level.

Like if I asked you what your difficulty level was, how can you explain it in terms everyone understands? You only raid Normal and just stop? Every tier is s stepping stone, a level of progression. They are not parallel progression paths. There isn't really 'dedicated Heroic' raiding, it all depends how well a group happens to perform and what their progress is. Sometimes my guild beats Heroic easily and we move onto mythic, sometimes a bad composition or unlucky tank drops handicap progress and we never get to attempt mythic. Every raid is different.


If the game was built so that normal raid -> normal raid 2 -> normal raid 3, then sure, difficulty works. But it isn't built that way, the progression is normal raid -> heroic raid -> mythic raid -> normal/heroic raid 2 -> mythic raid 2.

And population numbers are also skewed, since only 10% of the population does mythic. And even then, it only slightly opens up after they implement catch-up mechanics and start nerfing encounters. There's a huge skill gap between players who can clear mythic during its first month, and players who clear it after all the nerfs are in place.

It's like choosing a difficulty level at the start of a game. You want a mild gameplay? Choose relaxed. You want to be constantly pressured? Choose intense. Getting bored of the relaxed gameplay? Transfer to an instense server. The pressure is too much for you? Transfer to a relaxed one. No one is prohibiting you of participating in anything. You just choose the realm with the population you want.

[willtron]

You do mage+rogue and make it a fucking clown instead of a Spellblade? Why?

Made me think of a Harlequin from 40k which would be cool as fuck

[Triceron]

Mains have the privilege of having connections or being a part of a Guild. They can probably hook their alts up.



It's like choosing a difficulty level at the start of a game. You want a mild gameplay? Choose relaxed. You want to be constantly pressured? Choose intense. Getting bored of the relaxed gameplay? Transfer to an instense server. The pressure is too much for you? Transfer to a relaxed one. No one is prohibiting you of participating in anything. You just choose the realm with the population you want.

You understand that's not how servers work, right? You don't just connect to a server, your character's data is actually stored there, not client side.

It would be simple if server transfers were free. You understand that they aren't, right?

[username993720]

Made me think of a Harlequin from 40k which would be cool as fuck

Yeah, what's so wrong with a jester? Looks fitting to me when it comes to a fantasy world. Unlike these pompous names like spellblades, which have no basis in myth or legend.

You understand that's not how servers work, right? You don't just connect to a server, your character's data is actually stored there, not client side.

Cross server gameplay shows otherwise.

It would be simple if server transfers were free. You understand that they aren't, right?

Yes. But for the sake of this discussion, they are. Since this hasn't been implemented yet. We're talking hypothetically.

[Triceron]

Yes. But for the sake of this discussion, they are. Since this hasn't been implemented yet. We're talking hypothetically.

Easy to say when the solution is complete hypothetical

What is there to discuss? You can solve anything hypothetically. Not having enough fun with class choices? Hypothetically Blizzard can add 12 new classes that are all balanced at release. And hypothetically, the next expansion could be free.

[username993720]

Easy to say when the solution is complete hypothetical

What is there to discuss? You can solve anything hypothetically. Not having enough fun with class choices? Hypothetically Blizzard can add 12 new classes that are all balanced at release. And hypothetically, the next expansion could be free.

Okay, so server transfers would cost money. How would that be different from today?

[Triceron]

Okay, so server transfers would cost money. How would that be different from today?

You are suggesting a new interface that allows free access to different difficulties by changing servers. If it stays the same as paid transfer, then you don't really have a choice to choose a difficulty setting. Difficulty settings already exist, the problem is not in finding like minded individuals, it's the fact that the difficulty settings are not compartmentalized into parallel progression paths. You would need that to change first, including LFR becoming its own path instead of being a stepping stone to normal+ raiding.

And if you are just looking to find a casual non min max community, they already exist within RP server communities. What is the difference?

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+r...obile&ie=UTF-8

No, roleplaying (RP) servers in World of Warcraft (WoW) do not min max. RP servers are similar to PvE servers, but with stricter naming rules and additional social rules.

[username993720]

You are suggesting a new interface that allows free access to different difficulties by changing servers. If it stays the same as paid transfer, then you don't really have a choice to choose a difficulty setting. Difficulty settings already exist, the problem is not in finding like minded individuals, it's the fact that the difficulty settings are not compartmentalized into parallel progression paths. You would need that to change first, including LFR becoming its own path instead of being a stepping stone to normal+ raiding.

And if you are just looking to find a casual non min max community, they already exist within RP server communities. What is the difference?

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+r...obile&ie=UTF-8

No, roleplaying (RP) servers in World of Warcraft (WoW) do not min max. RP servers are similar to PvE servers, but with stricter naming rules and additional social rules.

I guess one can say RP servers answer that criterion. But, currently, developers focus more on the PvE servers more than they do RP. RP communities are the oddity, not the norm. That's why we can't have nice things. Because of the min\max bullshit. Most of my threads, which focus on fantasy and immersion end up being flooded by "it would ruin balance" or "people would go for the meta". That's why we should segregate these people, who are currently influencing game design, spearheaded by Ion Hazzikostas.

[Triceron]

I guess one can say RP servers answer that criterion. But, currently, developers focus more on the PvE servers more than they do RP. RP communities are the oddity, not the norm. That's why we can't have nice things. Because of the min\max bullshit. Most of my threads, which focus on fantasy and immersion end up being flooded by "it would ruin balance" or "people would go for the meta". That's why we should segregate these people, who are currently influencing game design, spearheaded by Ion Hazzikostas.

Min/maxing is the norm. All you're telling me is you're unhappy about accepting yourself as part of a minority. No matter how hard you try, you shouldn't force representation for a minority that chooses to be different. To put it in terms you may understand, that's very 'woke'. You're just inconveniencing everyone else who plays the game as intended by putting in extra steps for everyone to further recognize the fringe minority non min-max community. A community that is already recognized, and people with common play styles thst you have full access to find.

Majority of players don't need a difficulty setting or difficulty-based server choice at the beginning of every login. That decision is as one and done as picking what race and faction you want to play as. And its like letting people swap freely between factions, you would understand how that convenience would ruin the spirit of having factions in the first place, right?

Same with servers. Even if cross realms exist, servers are still the starting point to find the people you want to play with. There's no shame in playing on a RP server.

[username993720]

Min/maxing is the norm. All you're telling me is you're unhappy about accepting yourself as part of a minority. No matter how hard you try, you shouldn't force representation for a minority that chooses to be different. To put it in terms you may understand, that's very 'woke'. You're just inconveniencing everyone else who plays the game as intended by putting in extra steps for everyone to further recognize the fringe minority non min-max community. A community that is already recognized, and people with common play styles thst you have full access to find.

That is the problem. Why is that? Shouldn't a fantasy mmorpg be about immersive world and storytelling? If all people care about are numbers, can it not just be a papersheet game, where you insert variables and the game just calculates your odds at winning? Maybe we should just separate the game into more versions of itself, with one of it being an 'Epic' version, focusing on the cool aspect instead of the numbers aspect.

[Triceron]

That is the problem. Why is that? Shouldn't a fantasy mmorpg be about immersive world and storytelling? If all people care about are numbers, can it not just be a papersheet game, where you insert variables and the game just calculates your odds at winning? Maybe we should just separate the game into more versions of itself, with one of it being an 'Epic' version, focusing on the cool aspect instead of the numbers aspect.

Because this is an MMO first and foremost. You have played other MMO's, right? Which one have you ever played would you say was more immersive than any singleplayer RPG?

MMO's are Board Games meant to be played in groups. What you want is a a guided roleplay experience, while WoW is a glorified Settlers of Catan.

[username993720]

Because this is an MMO first and foremost. You have played other MMO's, right? Which one have you ever played would you say was more immersive than any singleplayer RPG?

MMO's are Board Games meant to be played in groups. What you want is a a guided roleplay experience, while WoW is a glorified Settlers of Catan.

You think Diablo players don't obssess over numbers as well?

[Triceron]

You think Diablo players don't obssess over numbers as well?

No one is talking about obsessing over numbers. We are talking about immersion.

What MMO (or any multiplayer game) have you played would you personally say was more immersive than Singleplayer RPGs?