[Concept] Multi-Classes

[Triceron]

Not all cosmic forces have pantheons?

Not all cosmic powers need pantheons?

Not if you consider the Hearthstone expansion:

Hearthstone divides EVERYTHING into different classes. Look at the Music themed expansion, splitting every music genre into each class. Look at the Rastakhan expansion, where each Loa was assigned to a different class too. Loa should be a theme of a single class like Shadow Hunter, not split up to every class. Same with Music being a theme for Bards, not just spread to every class.

There's a big difference between designing a class and designing a HS expansion based. They do not have the same common goals in mind. All themes in HS are treated like Covenants, designed to fit each class. Hearthstone is not goal oriented around creating new classes like Bards or Shadow Hunters.

Sentient weapons are not something new. We had Xal'atath, Aluneth and Thal'kiel. Do you really expect a class to remain with the same weapon its entire existence? You can already wield Taeshalach. It's nothing special.

Again, depends on the presentation and execution.

Black eyes and glaives are nothing new either, but that's what made Nightwarrior Tyrande cool, right? Or even Dark Ranger which you want to be a class. Nothing is unique that couldn't be represented by Hunters or DKs, yet you still want a class dedicated to it right? You want it to be a class not because it's something new, but because you think the concept has the potential to be explored as a new class . Now, apply this to what Devs are doing to plan a shortlist of classes for a new expansion

Potential for exploring themes and gameplay is the reason why I argue for any class to be playable. Not because of it being new or being a fan favourite, but because of what I think the Designers at Blizzard may want to explore next, and what journey of exploration they want to give to players for the expansion as a whole. Evoker exists for this very reason, as a means of exploring Draconic magic, culture and themes in a single playable class. Again, I defended their existence despite not caring about them personally, because I recognized the potential twinkling in the eyes of the developers. They dropped massive hints towards this.

You can apply this to all previous expansion classes too. Some were fan favourites, some were not even requested, but the common goal was all the same for every class - Potential exploration of new themes (related to a new expansion)

The strongest candidates for new classes will be defined by the story and setting plans for a new expansion. If a class can be written to fit a Titan themed setting, it will be more likely than a class with a rigidly defined theme, like Blademaster or Shadow Hunter for an expansion like the Last Titan. It doesn't mean Blademasters or Shadow Hunters are implausible, it means they're less likely for the foreseeable future.

[sam86]

Draenei and Orc ( including Mag'har) players aren't born of Azeroth though.

Heart of Azeroth may be the key to being Maw Walker, not 'being born in Azeroth. Consider even Arthas was Azeroth born and couldn't escape the Maw.

agree, which shows how worse the story is
why exactly were we chosen to have the heart? if u play a draenei hd or emo elf in BFA, u are supposedly just starting out, this is the first adventure u doing, yet u are given the heart because? ur achievement? what achievement? being born? and in case of draenei hd not even on azeroth?

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Dude, we were literally granted the "heart of Azeroth" artifact in Bfa and through it gained new powers, meaning a bond with the world soul through it.

Why do you keep making such assessments which are easily debunked by taking a quick peek at the Warcraft Wiki?!

again i just typed why it doesn't make sense

It's not just "being born on Azeroth," it requires a connection to the worldsoul of Azeroth herself, as in attunement to the Heart of Azeroth as was the case during BfA. Every Maw Walker is essentially one of the heroes bearing a Heart of Azeroth amulet, which canonically speaking is only a handful of people including the PC. Scores of souls and physical people trapped in the Maw during Shadowlands were born on Azeroth and found themselves incapable of leaving the Maw before we showed up to activate the Waystone to Oribos and create a way out for others.

and why is that? it is just because, yes that's the reason, 'because' no reason, that's my argument here, we became the uber super ultimate everything because we are just that, born that
even official lore-wise some lightforge draenei got heart of azeroth, those guys story start at bfa timeline, they join alliance (even if horde gave them exact same help.. but who gives a fuck?), bfa starts, yeah some draenei hd are billion of years old but the playable one is someone who just starting his journey/adventure
so he/she starts, get heart of azeroth because u are special, u have connection, what an amazing reason...
i can understand an undead warlock get connected because at least he has the potential to exist since 2003, since day forsaken were 'born', but that isn't how wow story is, the story is we are special because we are, not for any other reason, at least i thought reason was because we are born on azeroth but the reason is even worse, it is because we are born, we just exist, not even on azeroth (at time of birth at least), no the reason we are special is because we are special, end of text and explanation
there is a reason why a very solid critic to wow story is it became stupid, worse than a saturday morning cartoon, not to mention blizz is trying to give us a single player story in a mmo, how many lorewise paladin helped in BL? according to story given to us, it is supposed to be just 1, the problem is that one is everyone who was playing paladin

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As i already said, one or multiple, the specs still rely on a pet.

no it isn't
in older times, warlock pet (just pet) was strong, but not as strong as hunter one, the pet was ur helper, he was ur bitch, u control him and do what u want
now? yeah warlock is stronger than a pet, but he summons 1502 pet, warlock dmg now is mainly by pets, not helped by pets
if not clear: lets say that pre-legion warlock demo dmg was 70% and his pet 30%, post-legion warlock dmg is at most 40% and his many pets 60%
there is difference between u doing the job and someone help, and he is doing the job and u help, for me the 2nd was hunter BM since classic

[Triceron]

agree, which shows how worse the story is
why exactly were we chosen to have the heart? if u play a draenei hd or emo elf in BFA, u are supposedly just starting out, this is the first adventure u doing, yet u are given the heart because? ur achievement? what achievement? being born? and in case of draenei hd not even on azeroth?

Because we are PROVEN champions of Azeroth, who have gone through the trials and tribulations of to ovtain our power and position. The Wordsoul has acknowledged our player achievements. Gathering Azerite and attuning our character to the heart's power is part of the reason our character is the Mawwalker, not because we were born into that position.


You don't like it? You don't have to. I don't like Blood Elves being in the Horde, not since TBC, not now. The player race lore has ALWAYS bent for the sake of the greater narrative, and lore is the fictional canon. You don't have to like it, but you can't argue against canon.

Besides, working for your achievements and being rewarded by attunement is FAR better than your shitty 'you were born with it' explanation. So even if you don't like it, being born a Mawwalker is just beyond stupid and makes even less sense in the Shadowlands.

[Aucald]

and why is that? it is just because, yes that's the reason, 'because' no reason, that's my argument here, we became the uber super ultimate everything because we are just that, born that
even official lore-wise some lightforge draenei got heart of azeroth, those guys story start at bfa timeline, they join alliance (even if horde gave them exact same help.. but who gives a fuck?), bfa starts, yeah some draenei hd are billion of years old but the playable one is someone who just starting his journey/adventure
so he/she starts, get heart of azeroth because u are special, u have connection, what an amazing reason...
i can understand an undead warlock get connected because at least he has the potential to exist since 2003, since day forsaken were 'born', but that isn't how wow story is, the story is we are special because we are, not for any other reason, at least i thought reason was because we are born on azeroth but the reason is even worse, it is because we are born, we just exist, not even on azeroth (at time of birth at least), no the reason we are special is because we are special, end of text and explanation
there is a reason why a very solid critic to wow story is it became stupid, worse than a saturday morning cartoon, not to mention blizz is trying to give us a single player story in a mmo, how many lorewise paladin helped in BL? according to story given to us, it is supposed to be just 1, the problem is that one is everyone who was playing paladin

Are you asking some form of existential question about why some people are heroes and others aren't, or are you nitpicking at the core gameplay plinth where you play the hero around whom the game story revolves? Beyond what should be fundamentally obvious, the Waystones activate for those who've undergone the attunement process to Azeroth because they were designed to do so. Why is that? We don't actually know, but according to sources like the attendants of Oribos and the Enlightened, the First Ones created them as a failsafe knowing that such heroes would be necessary in the future, which is why the prophecy of the Maw Walker existed in the first place.

[Al Gorefiend]

agree, which shows how worse the story is
why exactly were we chosen to have the heart? if u play a draenei hd or emo elf in BFA, u are supposedly just starting out, this is the first adventure u doing, yet u are given the heart because? ur achievement? what achievement? being born? and in case of draenei hd not even on azeroth?

Same reason an undead warlock that RPs as a puppy killing remorseless PvPer is given the heart of azeroth / artifact weapon / wrathion's bff.

Because the story is the exact same and NPCs treat you the exact same rather you are a heroic sexy looking human or sleazy gross little goblin. You can just use a toy to make yourself look like an ogre and take quests to kill ogres from NPCs that hate ogres. It doesn't matter, RPing in this game is half suspension of disbelief.

[username993720]

Not all cosmic powers need pantheons?

So, there's potential for all cosmic foces to have a class based on their pantheon?

Hearthstone divides EVERYTHING into different classes. Look at the Music themed expansion, splitting every music genre into each class. Look at the Rastakhan expansion, where each Loa was assigned to a different class too. Loa should be a theme of a single class like Shadow Hunter, not split up to every class. Same with Music being a theme for Bards, not just spread to every class.

There's a big difference between designing a class and designing a HS expansion based. They do not have the same common goals in mind. All themes in HS are treated like Covenants, designed to fit each class. Hearthstone is not goal oriented around creating new classes like Bards or Shadow Hunters.

Gonk and Pa'ku are druid Loas.
Rezan and, potentially, Shirvallah, are Paladin Loas.
Now, that is not to say that there couldn't be a Shadow Hunter class.
Blizzard's cancelled Path of the Titans, for example, allowed you to follow a particular Titan and be granted its powers. Now, it'd make more sense for them to be allocated according to class rather than you, as a class, be given access to other domains, like covenants.

Again, depends on the presentation and execution.

Black eyes and glaives are nothing new either, but that's what made Nightwarrior Tyrande cool, right? Or even Dark Ranger which you want to be a class. Nothing is unique that couldn't be represented by Hunters or DKs, yet you still want a class dedicated to it right? You want it to be a class not because it's something new, but because you think the concept has the potential to be explored as a new class . Now, apply this to what Devs are doing to plan a shortlist of classes for a new expansion

Potential for exploring themes and gameplay is the reason why I argue for any class to be playable. Not because of it being new or being a fan favourite, but because of what I think the Designers at Blizzard may want to explore next, and what journey of exploration they want to give to players for the expansion as a whole. Evoker exists for this very reason, as a means of exploring Draconic magic, culture and themes in a single playable class. Again, I defended their existence despite not caring about them personally, because I recognized the potential twinkling in the eyes of the developers. They dropped massive hints towards this.

You can apply this to all previous expansion classes too. Some were fan favourites, some were not even requested, but the common goal was all the same for every class - Potential exploration of new themes (related to a new expansion)

The strongest candidates for new classes will be defined by the story and setting plans for a new expansion. If a class can be written to fit a Titan themed setting, it will be more likely than a class with a rigidly defined theme, like Blademaster or Shadow Hunter for an expansion like the Last Titan. It doesn't mean Blademasters or Shadow Hunters are implausible, it means they're less likely for the foreseeable future.

Ok, but a class based on a very specific weapon? Like, without it, you are nothing, basically.

no it isn't
in older times, warlock pet (just pet) was strong, but not as strong as hunter one, the pet was ur helper, he was ur bitch, u control him and do what u want
now? yeah warlock is stronger than a pet, but he summons 1502 pet, warlock dmg now is mainly by pets, not helped by pets
if not clear: lets say that pre-legion warlock demo dmg was 70% and his pet 30%, post-legion warlock dmg is at most 40% and his many pets 60%
there is difference between u doing the job and someone help, and he is doing the job and u help, for me the 2nd was hunter BM since classic

What did Demo talents do if not enhance your minions?

[Triceron]

So, there's potential for all cosmic foces to have a class based on their pantheon?

Not all Cosmic Forces have Pantheons. Fel, for example, is mostly known to be organized under Sargeras, otherwise we know little of Demonic forces that are not united under the Legion.

Gonk and Pa'ku are druid Loas.
Rezan and, potentially, Shirvallah, are Paladin Loas.
Now, that is not to say that there couldn't be a Shadow Hunter class.

So what is the point you want to make here? Titans assigned to other classes in HS is also not to say there couldn't be a singular Pantheon themed class. You already reached the conclusion yourself.

Blizzard's cancelled Path of the Titans, for example, allowed you to follow a particular Titan and be granted its powers. Now, it'd make more sense for them to be allocated according to class rather than you, as a class, be given access to other domains, like covenants.

DK's design is an amalgam of all Scourge Heroes of WC3, even dipping into units. Their design is a representation of a Scourge faction. Ghouls, Gargoyles, Necromancers, Abominations, Death Knights, Liches, Dreadlords and Frost Wyrms are all a part of a single class.

Covenants splits up multiple Death Realm themes and allows players to pick what they want. Even if some classes are more thematic to a certain realm, they are free to attune themselves with any Covenant they choose.

Why would it 'make more sense' to go with spreading a theme to multiple classes instead of distilling it into one?
Both routes are equally viable, and we have examples of both types of design in the game.

Blizzard can condense a whole factions worth of theme and distill it into a single class. Blizzard can also split up themes into Subfactions which players can choose to attune themselves with. There is no competition between the two, they can both exist at the same time.

Ok, but a class based on a very specific weapon? Like, without it, you are nothing, basically.

Just like there are different types of Superheroes, some who are defined by their weapon choices, some who aren't. What is Green Lantern without their ring? Ironman without his suit?

Is a DK nothing without their Runeblade? Literally all their lore implies all their magic is tied to their weapon as a power source.

I think it's a neat thought experiment, but it doesn't impact class design because gameplay will never separate the player from their power source.

What you're bringing up here is a nitpick. You're just fussing over details that don't really matter in the long run. The player can't lose their class abilities, class resource, or the use of a dedicated class weapon.

I think there's a level of suspension of disbelief that allows it to be what it is. Like you may have problems with every Paladin running around with their own Ashbringer, but that's just how things work in an MMO revolving around player characters. Isn't it more concerning that every Titan Killer has their own Gorschalach? But you're more concerned about them losing the weapon. So is it really that big of a deal when the bigger lore breaking point isn't even the first thing you have problems with?

[username993720]

Not all Cosmic Forces have Pantheons. Fel, for example, is mostly known to be organized under Sargeras, otherwise we know little of Demonic forces that are not united under the Legion.

Who knows...maybe there's a Chaos pantheon.

So what is the point you want to make here? Titans assigned to other classes in HS is also not to say there couldn't be a singular Pantheon themed class. You already reached the conclusion yourself.

Right.
It's just that their powers aren't something we haven't seen before.

DK's design is an amalgam of all Scourge Heroes of WC3, even dipping into units. Their design is a representation of a Scourge faction. Ghouls, Gargoyles, Necromancers, Abominations, Death Knights, Liches, Dreadlords and Frost Wyrms are all a part of a single class.

Covenants splits up multiple Death Realm themes and allows players to pick what they want. Even if some classes are more thematic to a certain realm, they are free to attune themselves with any Covenant they choose.

Why would it 'make more sense' to go with spreading a theme to multiple classes instead of distilling it into one?
Both routes are equally viable, and we have examples of both types of design in the game.

Blizzard can condense a whole factions worth of theme and distill it into a single class. Blizzard can also split up themes into Subfactions which players can choose to attune themselves with. There is no competition between the two, they can both exist at the same time.

So, the question remains, how will it manifest?
As a new class? As a system? Both?

Just like there are different types of Superheroes, some who are defined by their weapon choices, some who aren't. What is Green Lantern without their ring? Ironman without his suit?

Is a DK nothing without their Runeblade? Literally all their lore implies all their magic is tied to their weapon as a power source.

I think it's a neat thought experiment, but it doesn't impact class design because gameplay will never separate the player from their power source.

What you're bringing up here is a nitpick. You're just fussing over details that don't really matter in the long run. The player can't lose their class abilities, class resource, or the use of a dedicated class weapon.

I think there's a level of suspension of disbelief that allows it to be what it is. Like you may have problems with every Paladin running around with their own Ashbringer, but that's just how things work in an MMO revolving around player characters. Isn't it more concerning that every Titan Killer has their own Gorschalach? But you're more concerned about them losing the weapon. So is it really that big of a deal when the bigger lore breaking point isn't even the first thing you have problems with?

DKs aren't tied to a single weapon and we had artifacts before. I don't know... it's just so very specific. Titankiller... does it mean it's Fel?

[Triceron]

Who knows...maybe there's a Chaos pantheon.

Okay?

Right.
It's just that their powers aren't something we haven't seen before

We've seen some of it in action in Legion, with the raid against Argus where the Titans step in to assist in our fight. We've encountered plenty of Watchers too, who are the Titan's direct servants. It would elaborate on that sort of theme.

So, the question remains, how will it manifest?
As a new class? As a system? Both?

If we're talking about a survey for a new class, what do you think the topic is about?

DKs aren't tied to a single weapon and we had artifacts before. I don't know... it's just so very specific. Titankiller... does it mean it's Fel?

It is whatever Blizzard would want it to be.

Gorschalach is not Gorribal, so it wouldn't exactly be fel. It is the reunited parts of both pieces of the weapon. It could stay fel, it could be purified, or it could be both.

Also, just to clear confusion, the Sword of Sargeras in Silithus remains unnamed, so it may or may not be Gorribal or part of Gorshalach. But the name Gorshalach is canon, as it's name appears in a trinket that drops from Argus encounter.

[sam86]

Are you asking some form of existential question about why some people are heroes and others aren't, or are you nitpicking at the core gameplay plinth where you play the hero around whom the game story revolves? Beyond what should be fundamentally obvious, the Waystones activate for those who've undergone the attunement process to Azeroth because they were designed to do so. Why is that? We don't actually know, but according to sources like the attendants of Oribos and the Enlightened, the First Ones created them as a failsafe knowing that such heroes would be necessary in the future, which is why the prophecy of the Maw Walker existed in the first place.

yes, and that is what i mean as a bad story, exactly as u describing

Same reason an undead warlock that RPs as a puppy killing remorseless PvPer is given the heart of azeroth / artifact weapon / wrathion's bff.

no it isn't same reason
big difference between RP and actual story, I can RP that i slayed 2.5 million alliance but lorewise i didn't, lorewise i'm a belf paladin who started by stealing light from naruu, got redeemed thanks to Draenei and so on
any 'rp' i do isn't official lore
now on other hand, it is official lore that any of allied race we get at legion end got the heart for nothing

Because we are PROVEN champions of Azeroth

1- check Aucald answer for my post
2- seriously? what exactly did an emo belf prove exactly the second u created him to be chosen by azeroth heart? official lore he literally proved nothing, he is just starting, but he is the most uber emo belf ever because nothing, again just check Aucald answer, or just tell me ur statement: what did any of legion allied races do to get heart of azeroth, or even better: what did any allied race from BFA do to be a mawwalker, or are all allied races out of wow stories? didn't we even meet some of them in SL?

[Triceron]

yes, and that is what i mean as a bad story, exactly as u describing

Sure, you can think it is bad, but it's the explanation you get.

2- seriously? what exactly did an emo belf prove exactly the second u created him to be chosen by azeroth heart? official lore he literally proved nothing, he is just starting, but he is the most uber emo belf ever because nothing, again just check Aucald answer, or just tell me ur statement: what did any of legion allied races do to get heart of azeroth, or even better: what did any allied race from BFA do to be a mawwalker, or are all allied races out of wow stories? didn't we even meet some of them in SL?

All BFA allied Races would have had ample time to gather azerite and attune to the Heart of Azeroth.

If you're asking what allied races do to be worthy, then it's implied that all player characters if any race or allied race has the potential to be a champion of Azeroth, by measure of their character or their accomplishments. Good or evil, selfish or altruistic, what matters is that they are they type to rise up to the challenge to defend Azeroth against its greatest threats. Think of Green Lantern's ring choosing its next bearer, or a Symbiote finding its next host. Even the most unlikely candidates may have potential for greatness.

This would be the implied reason why a sadistic Warlock or an opportunistic Rogue would be deemed as worthy as the most esteemed Paladin or Druid. It isn't all about what they've done or what race or class they are. The common through line is that all player characters of either faction will fight to defend Azeroth, even if they are newcomers to the planet.

And which races are you talking about got introduced in Shadowlands? You talking about the racial skin customizations?

[sam86]

Sure, you can think it is bad, but it's the explanation you get.
All BFA allied Races would have had ample time to gather azerite and attune to the Heart of Azeroth.
If you're asking what allied races do to be worthy, then it's implied that all player characters if any race or allied race has the potential to be a champion of Azeroth, by measure of their character or their accomplishments.
And which races are you talking about got introduced in Shadowlands? You talking about the racial skin customizations?

ok so the explanation u giving, is the 'potential', this is exactly what i'm complaining about
also i can't recall BFA clearly but we get the heart before we get any azerite at all, unless u talking about silithus skirmish, which didn't involve most of both factions in first place?
as for race i think i saw at least a kul'tiran, but this is so minor that u can ignore it if u don't want to, so minor to be relevant to the problem that wow main drive from cata forward is because we have 'potential'

[Aucald]

yes, and that is what i mean as a bad story, exactly as u describing

Which part are you referring to - the hero gameplay contrivance, or the nature of the Waystones and their function as designed by the First Ones?

[username993720]

Okay?

Should we have a class based on that?

We've seen some of it in action in Legion, with the raid against Argus where the Titans step in to assist in our fight. We've encountered plenty of Watchers too, who are the Titan's direct servants. It would elaborate on that sort of theme.

I mean Death, Life, Arcane, Lightning, Time are not something our classes lack.

If we're talking about a survey for a new class, what do you think the topic is about?

We're not. This thread isn't even about it. We're speculating what to expect out of TLT.

It is whatever Blizzard would want it to be.

Gorschalach is not Gorribal, so it wouldn't exactly be fel. It is the reunited parts of both pieces of the weapon. It could stay fel, it could be purified, or it could be both.

Also, just to clear confusion, the Sword of Sargeras in Silithus remains unnamed, so it may or may not be Gorribal or part of Gorshalach. But the name Gorshalach is canon, as it's name appears in a trinket that drops from Argus encounter.

It is Sargeras who obliterated the Titan pantheon. Not anyone else. So, likely Fel.

[Al Gorefiend]

yes, and that is what i mean as a bad story, exactly as u describing

no it isn't same reason
big difference between RP and actual story, I can RP that i slayed 2.5 million alliance but lorewise i didn't, lorewise i'm a belf paladin who started by stealing light from naruu, got redeemed thanks to Draenei and so on
any 'rp' i do isn't official lore
now on other hand, it is official lore that any of allied race we get at legion end got the heart for nothing


1- check Aucald answer for my post
2- seriously? what exactly did an emo belf prove exactly the second u created him to be chosen by azeroth heart? official lore he literally proved nothing, he is just starting, but he is the most uber emo belf ever because nothing, again just check Aucald answer, or just tell me ur statement: what did any of legion allied races do to get heart of azeroth, or even better: what did any allied race from BFA do to be a mawwalker, or are all allied races out of wow stories? didn't we even meet some of them in SL?

What did the dragonborn do to become worthy? Wake up in a wooden cart??? Worst story ever

[Triceron]

Should we have a class based on that?

Does a Chaos Pantheon exist? Maybe.

Should we get a class based on a maybe?

Well, the answer is also maybe.

I mean Death, Life, Arcane, Lightning, Time are not something our classes lack.

What were classes lacking when we got Demon Hunters?

We're not. This thread isn't even about it. We're speculating what to expect out of TLT.

Borrowed power is hopefully a thing of the past. Fans hated it, Blizzard listened. They have been quite vocal about the shift to Evergreen systems focus.

Current design philosophy centers on evergreen systems like expanding on Classes and adding Hero Talents. Evergreen systems are designed to be meaningful progression for the long term. You can see this with features like Player Housing as well. I think a new class and new HT options would be much more likely than Covenants 2.0.

It is Sargeras who obliterated the Titan pantheon. Not anyone else. So, likely Fel.

Have you read the description of the class concept or are you just drawing conclusions based on the placeholder class name?

Titankillers combine the sword fragments of Taeshalach and Gorribal to use the powers of Gorshalach and connect to the cosmic powers of the titans, to destroy any threat to Azeroth.

Does that sound like Fel to you? Looks like you just want to attack a strawman instead of discussing the class concept. What next? Your character has to be the size of a Titan to wield the sword? Or you can only be a Titan race to use Titan powers? Or if we have Titankiller as a class, then we need Firstone Killer and Void Lord killer classes as well?

Why are you discussing around the concept? If you don't like it, just say it and move on. You don't need to try and prove it to be a bad idea. I even said I agreed it's not a great concept.

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ok so the explanation u giving, is the 'potential', this is exactly what i'm complaining about
also i can't recall BFA clearly but we get the heart before we get any azerite at all, unless u talking about silithus skirmish, which didn't involve most of both factions in first place?
as for race i think i saw at least a kul'tiran, but this is so minor that u can ignore it if u don't want to, so minor to be relevant to the problem that wow main drive from cata forward is because we have 'potential'

Untested heroes who come a across a great power source is generally a fantasy trope. Bilbo Baggins even fits this category. So sure, hate the trope all you want.

You're aware that Warcraft and all its fantasy lore is built on tropes, right? Everything is a twist on a trope or an homage to something else that has existed. But you seem blissfully unaware when it comes to the Mawwalker lore. It's literally just another trope. The lore already treats your player as a 'chosen one', and your character lives out a Hero's Journey story based in a more lighthearted Warhammer Fantasy ripoff universe.

You know ever since Legion, the story of WoW's player characters has never gotten much more complex than being campy fantasy Chosen One schlock. Why is Mawwalker the hill you choose to die on? Player character narrative is just backstory for why you're questing and raiding in a new zone.

[username993720]

Does a Chaos Pantheon exist? Maybe.

Should we get a class based on a maybe?

Well, the answer is also maybe.

Could we get a class based on the Shadowlands covenants? People certainly thought so. But, then you realized Venthyr and Necrolord themes are found in the Death Knight class, Night Fae in the Druid and Kyrian in the Priest.

What were classes lacking when we got Demon Hunters?

A proper demon transformer, i guess.

Borrowed power is hopefully a thing of the past. Fans hated it, Blizzard listened. They have been quite vocal about the shift to Evergreen systems focus.

Current design philosophy centers on evergreen systems like expanding on Classes and adding Hero Talents. Evergreen systems are designed to be meaningful progression for the long term. You can see this with features like Player Housing as well. I think a new class and new HT options would be much more likely than Covenants 2.0.

Can HTs stay forever?
I mean you add and add and add... you'll get to a point where it's taking too much of potential other classes.

Have you read the description of the class concept or are you just drawing conclusions based on the placeholder class name?

Titankillers combine the sword fragments of Taeshalach and Gorribal to use the powers of Gorshalach and connect to the cosmic powers of the titans, to destroy any threat to Azeroth.

Does that sound like Fel to you? Looks like you just want to attack a strawman instead of discussing the class concept. What next? Your character has to be the size of a Titan to wield the sword? Or you can only be a Titan race to use Titan powers? Or if we have Titankiller as a class, then we need Firstone Killer and Void Lord killer classes as well?

Why are you discussing around the concept? If you don't like it, just say it and move on. You don't need to try and prove it to be a bad idea. I even said I agreed it's not a great concept.

Wait...
How is it a Titankiller if it uses the powers of the Titan pantheon? When i think of a Titankiller, i think of Sargeras, or someone smaller killing a bigger enemy like the Olympians vs the Titans or David vs Goliath.

[Triceron]

Could we get a class based on the Shadowlands covenants? People certainly thought so. But, then you realized Venthyr and Necrolord themes are found in the Death Knight class, Night Fae in the Druid and Kyrian in the Priest.

Could it be possible? Yes. Was it ever likely? Not really, since like you said many of those themes exist in DKs, which is why they were at the forefront of the expansion even.

1. We don't have any class that is inherently Titan themed, or prepped to explore their particular use of Cosmic Powers.
2. Blizzard is moving away from borrowed power systems
3. Survey has many Titan themed class concepts, likely aimed at TLT expansion
4. Survey is still considered a leak that has not been formally debunked

A proper demon transformer, i guess.

So would you say we needed a class for that? Is that all the Demon Hunter brings to the table?

Can HTs stay forever?
I mean you add and add and add... you'll get to a point where it's taking too much of potential other classes.

They will be staying like Specs and Professions will. And if it takes the potential of other classes? Good, then that leaves more room for better Class concepts while lesser ones get absorbed and represented as HT. Like I said, I wouldn't be opposed to a general Witch class that has Witchdoctor as a HT, instead of a dedicated Witchdoctor class. This would be a good thing.

Then they can work on expanding HT further to bridge in more visual customizations, and better talents that properly reflects the class concepts.

Wait...
How is it a Titankiller if it uses the powers of the Titan pantheon? When i think of a Titankiller, i think of Sargeras, or someone smaller killing a bigger enemy like the Olympians vs the Titans or David vs Goliath.

That's your problem.

You're hyperfocused on a name, and not the concept. Titankiller could easily be a placeholder name. Did you know what the DK was called in WC3? AntiPaladin.

The actual concept in the survey outlines it clearly - it uses Gorshalach to harness the cosmic power of the Titans.

[username993720]

Could it be possible? Yes. Was it ever likely? Not really, since like you said many of those themes exist in DKs, which is why they were at the forefront of the expansion even.

1. We don't have any class that is inherently Titan themed, or prepped to explore their particular use of Cosmic Powers.
2. Blizzard is moving away from borrowed power systems
3. Survey has many Titan themed class concepts, likely aimed at TLT expansion
4. Survey is still considered a leak that has not been formally debunked

What you consider Titan powers is just existing powers:
Aman'thul controls Time, Eonar Life, Argus Death, Norgannon Arcane magic, Golganneth Storm, Khaz'Goroth Blacksmithing, Aggramar martial skills, and Sargeras currently Fel.

So would you say we needed a class for that? Is that all the Demon Hunter brings to the table?

It's the main theme of the DH.

They will be staying like Specs and Professions will. And if it takes the potential of other classes? Good, then that leaves more room for better Class concepts while lesser ones get absorbed and represented as HT. Like I said, I wouldn't be opposed to a general Witch class that has Witchdoctor as a HT, instead of a dedicated Witchdoctor class. This would be a good thing.

Then they can work on expanding HT further to bridge in more visual customizations, and better talents that properly reflects the class concepts.

That's like expecting the specs to add more and more talents, without end, with every expansion. We ended up with MoP talent tree, in the end, because of that.

That's your problem.

You're hyperfocused on a name, and not the concept. Titankiller could easily be a placeholder name. Did you know what the DK was called in WC3? AntiPaladin.

The actual concept in the survey outlines it clearly - it uses Gorshalach to harness the cosmic power of the Titans.

Anti-Paladin is exactly what a DK is - a Dark Knight.
If that's how they, allegedly, market the class, don't you think it needs to be clear?

[Triceron]

What you consider Titan powers is just existing powers:

It's all in how they use and manifest the powers.

Just like a Mage, Evoker, Monk and Shaman and Warlock all use the element of Fire, but manifested in very different ways.

Since a Mage has fire spec, do you think Shamans, Evokers, Monks and Warlocks are all doing more of the same? Or do you think their uses of fire are justifiably different?

Shamans can summon fire elementals and use Lava. Warlocks use Shadowflame and burning Fel. Evokers use empowered blasts of deep crimson flames of life. Each class has its own spin on the same element of Fire.

Titan powers would be nuanced in the same way, like I gave you examples of Argus sourced Death powers not using disease or rot, but a form if re-origination and 'unmaking' that targets the soul of the enemies. We haven't explored how Life, Time, Storm, Smithing and Martial powers could be manifested through Titan Powers. How is Time magic different between Bronze Dragons, Mages and the Titans? We haven't explored it yet

It's the main theme of the DH.

But why did we need a Demon Hunter if Warlocks already had it? They aren't bringing anything new that couldn't be added as customizations for Warlock, right?

This is how you argue against Celestial Lancers folding their spear theme into Warriors. See the parallel? I'm playing devils advocate here. I'm using your argument against you to show how disingenuous it is, and how it even undermines expansion classes by questioning what they brought to the table and pointing out that either it isn't new, or it could be given to existing classes.

This is how Teriz argued against classes like the DH and the Dragonsworn in the past. You're literally using his same arguments, and frankly it's nothing more than empty fallacies that misses the point of what Blizzard looks for in a new class. If new themes were a high priority, there's no reason why we had a DH and Evoker before a class with a new theme like a Tinker or a Bard.

That's like expecting the specs to add more and more talents, without end, with every expansion. We ended up with MoP talent tree, in the end, because of that.

There is always a limit, and the limit is designed by Blizzard. Just like the level cap doesn't shoot up to lvl 200+, it always scales down every few expansions.

Anti-Paladin is exactly what a DK is - a Dark Knight.
If that's how they, allegedly, market the class, don't you think it needs to be clear?

AntiPaladins typically aren't Undead Summoners who use Frost and Death magic. In Warcraft 2, that's exactly what a Death Knight was, and it carries that theme and archetype over to the new generations of DKs in WoW.