SOLUTION! To Tank & Healer Shortage?

[Xath]

The best way to alleviate the shortage would be to allow you to designated a second character when tanking or healing to recieve vaults. I like tanking I don't tanking because I don't want to do more than 8 10s a week I don't find it fun. The other thing that would help a lot is dropping the 1/6 mythic to 8 and have 10 be 2/6 mythic items.

[NineSpine]

These are the people who could wake up tomorrow to find out Blizzard removed every difficulty level above Heroic and still find a way to blame the elites if Blizzard doesn't give them a full set of the best gear in the game just for logging in.

If you think Blizzard homogenized classes for the sake of solo players and not for the sake of high end balance, I don't think you are dealing with reality. M+ requires that classes be homogenized, because every potential group must have the tools to deal with every potential challenge.

[Relapses]

If you think Blizzard homogenized classes for the sake of solo players and not for the sake of high end balance, I don't think you are dealing with reality. M+ requires that classes be homogenized, because every potential group must have the tools to deal with every potential challenge.

I'm not sure how you'd infer I'm a fan of homogenization from that post. There are simply people who will never be happy with anything Blizzard ever does. Until vertical progression is removed entirely from the game and Blizzard gives players a free BiS geared toon just for logging in, people at the bottom rungs of the foodchain are going to find ways to blame the top players for every problem they perceive with the game.

[Biomega]

I'm not sure how you'd infer I'm a fan of homogenization from that post. There are simply people who will never be happy with anything Blizzard ever does. Until vertical progression is removed entirely from the game and Blizzard gives players a free BiS geared toon just for logging in, people at the bottom rungs of the foodchain are going to find ways to blame the top players for every problem they perceive with the game.

Don't worry, even if they did that, I can see it in front of my eyes already... "Great, Blizzard have finally caved to the mythic tryhards and given them free BiS-geared toons just for logging in, because those elitist parselords think they're too good to grind gear like the rest of us. WAY TO CATER TO THE 0.01% BLIZZARD, RUINING OUR GAME AS ALWAYS."

It's just not constructive to think about motivation. What matters is getting a good handle on causes and practicable solutions.

[javierdsv]

Every single "solution" will have pros and cons.

We just need ANY solution getting implemented. The problem is they're not doing anything at all, wait.. let me take that back, they're actually nerfing tanks and/or healers every 2 patches, which I find hilarious.

[HansOlo]

Came to me in my dreams last night: We don't need to push players into re-rolling main spec tank or heals if that's not fun for them. What we DO need is more players trying those roles out enough - more than once or twice - to see if they might grow to like them. So what if there were incentives for *everyone* to try them once a week? What if every player with tank or heal off-spec were to pick a dungeon level in their comfort zone and give it a go? And even if it was scary that first time, try it again once a week?

Tiers:

1. 1-star: Heroic, TW, Normal (leveling) Dungeons
2. 2-star: Mythic Zero & untimed Mega Dungeons
3. 3-star: Mythic Plus Dungeons

Incentives:

• Tanking one dungeon gives you buff for 5% less damage taken in that tier and below until next weekly reset.
• Healing one dungeon gives you buff for 5% more healing received in that tier and below until next weekly reset.
• While tanking or healing, you have low % chance of special **MOUNT** only available to tanks and healers, new one each season.

Hoped-for Outcomes:

• Competitive players will absolutely aim to get these buffs weekly, to help them with their push keys.
• Flood of tanks and healers infused into queues for low-level keys. Yes, many of those will be stretching outside their comfort zones. Mistakes will be made. But that's what low keys are for, and most players who DPS 8s & 10s are perfectly capable of tanking/healing 3s and 5s. Heck, many of these players could tank or heal the 10s; they just lack motivation to do so.
• All players (including very casual) would consider tanking or healing, even if just a TW, for shot at the mount.
• Some small % of these players would discover, over course of a season, that they actually look forward to tanking and healing. Now that they've tried it enough to stop being scared of it.

Details to be sorted:

• Is 5% the right buff? I think that's about right. Any less, and might be ignored. Any more, and Blizz would have to start tuning around it, which would be unfair to those who choose not to participate.
• What should % for mount drop be? Should it scale with key level? I'm not fussed either way on these details; whatever Blizz & community want is fine.

Basis of this whole proposal is to give players reason to try it at least once a week over extended period, in hopes that it might grow on them as they become more comfortable with it.

I have a better idea.

TMOG is a big deal. How about you earning tokens as tank/healer. For the tokens, you can unlock really cool DPS outfit?

That's a very elegant solution.

[Biomega]

I have a better idea.

TMOG is a big deal. How about you earning tokens as tank/healer. For the tokens, you can unlock really cool DPS outfit?

That's a very elegant solution.

Well, either this is not going to be desirable enough - in which case it doesn't actually fix anything, and will at best have an extra tank/healer here and there.

Or it's going to be extremely desirable - in which case runs will be full of tanks/healers who hate being there and don't know what they're doing, but have to go through this anyway just to get The Thing™. All the while the reasons why tanks/healers don't like tanking/healing are still there, and now being experienced by even more people who are even less prepared to put up with them.

Forcing people into content they don't like has not worked well in the past. It's usually been a breeding ground for toxicity.

[pinkz]

Do you really think it was "top players" that wanted more sustain for solo play? Rather than casuals who keep dying to regular mobs because they don't know what they're doing? I mean, really? Which seems more likely?

i never said anything about solo play, do not believe this thread is about solo play. if it was, why would tanks and healers be a issue in solo play? adding sustains trend was before solo shuffle, delves, etc. players going into random grouping in WOW like LFD, LFR, BGs, pug M+ and pug raids, imo is sorta a solo play, you are not guaranteed neck beard DPS, healing, or tanking

[Relapses]

Well, either this is not going to be desirable enough - in which case it doesn't actually fix anything, and will at best have an extra tank/healer here and there.

Or it's going to be extremely desirable - in which case runs will be full of tanks/healers who hate being there and don't know what they're doing, but have to go through this anyway just to get The Thing™. All the while the reasons why tanks/healers don't like tanking/healing are still there, and now being experienced by even more people who are even less prepared to put up with them.

Forcing people into content they don't like has not worked well in the past. It's usually been a breeding ground for toxicity.

Right -- the problem with incentives is that it incentivizes the wrong behavior. In theory, it helps participation. In execution, people start looking at the role as a chore that they just have to do, not because they want to do it.

That's why I said a few posts back that I think we're looking at the problem from the wrong angle. We shouldn't be incentivizing more people to tank or heal if they don't want to do it; we should be incentivizing groups that are successful to continue doing content together. Like, right now if you blast a dungeon and +2 or +3 it, nobody says anything and they usually just peace the fuck out after a couple "ggs." That same group would almost assuredly be just as successful in the higher key level, the game simply does nothing to incentivize staying in a group together to try it. I get that this could lead to another type of toxicity but I don't see the harm in Blizzard giving extra Crests/VP to groups who continue to do content together. It doesn't necessarily even have to be push keys, either. If the group chooses to just blast a bunch of +8s for few hours for vault keys, it'll just make the journey that much less of a hassle.

[Alroxas]

in TW dungeons, LFD right now we are seeing DPS specing as tanks, coming into a dungeon and changing back to the DPS or healing spec to tank

imo new players that see this, go with the OP training wheel option which means not rolling a actual tank. when they reach max level they have a class that has a tank spec and no clue how to play it

Abusing the TW queue in that fashion leads to a quick kick and now with deserter debuff applying to kicked players - I don't think that's as prevalent now as it used to be.

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The other thing that would help a lot is dropping the 1/6 mythic to 8 and have 10 be 2/6 mythic items.

Infinitely farmable mythic track loot would be a bad idea for the health of the game. Think about it - first week if you don't no-life it, good luck trying to get in to PuGs on week 2. Sorry your item level is too low because the party leader has got Mythic 6/6 players applying left and right.

[Relapses]

Abusing the TW queue in that fashion leads to a quick kick and now with deserter debuff applying to kicked players - I don't think that's as prevalent now as it used to be.

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Infinitely farmable mythic track loot would be a bad idea for the health of the game. Think about it - first week if you don't no-life it, good luck trying to get in to PuGs on week 2. Sorry your item level is too low because the party leader has got Mythic 6/6 players applying left and right.

I might be mistaken but I think he was referring to the Vault reward, not the dungeon reward. This would essentially bring it back in line with how it was for most of DF.

[Biomega]

i never said anything about solo play, do not believe this thread is about solo play.

I'm not sure you understood me correctly. You said things were changed at the request of top players/influencers - I'm disagreeing with this, and think that all those changes are much more likely there to benefit casual solo players than top players/influencers who play primarily in groups. Whether this thread is about solo play or not doesn't matter - my point is that I disagree with your posited motivation for Blizzard's actions.

You seem to be very confused about what I'm actually objecting to.

[Xath]

Abusing the TW queue in that fashion leads to a quick kick and now with deserter debuff applying to kicked players - I don't think that's as prevalent now as it used to be.

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Infinitely farmable mythic track loot would be a bad idea for the health of the game. Think about it - first week if you don't no-life it, good luck trying to get in to PuGs on week 2. Sorry your item level is too low because the party leader has got Mythic 6/6 players applying left and right.

I meant in vault sorry if that wasn't clear that's what it was for basically all of dragonflight and it felt much more alt friendly. Also I am one of those players :P