SOLUTION! To Tank & Healer Shortage?

[Northern Goblin]

That's not really a SOLUTION, though, is it?

"What's the solution to the insane egg prices?"
"Cook something without eggs in it!"

Mythic Delves, tanks and healers can go solo then and forget the world exists.

[TBM X]

That is just silly - even if a healer or tank role was added to my main toon's class, I wouldn't heal or tank in PuGs. The issue is the responsibility burden is higher for those roles compared to DPS and I'd rather NOT have that stress.

Moreover, there's a lot of bad players in the lower pools at this point in the season in lower keys. It's quite bad - here's an example: Had a shaman with around 2k score doing a Workshop +9 just yesterday who was targeted by K.U.J.O.'s leap attack and moves toward the undamaged cube causing it to become a Junk Bomb and leaving us with no where to hide during his Venting Flames. Also Shaman was slow to dispel the Blazing Chomp which nearly killed the tank.

2k score isn't nothing but you would expect a player to have some baseline on what to do - but nope, this is what you get at this point of the season in low keys. Players failing upwards.


And it's going to get worse - the added gear tracks during S2 turbo mode + puzzling cartel chips and later with corruption powers, failing upwards is going to be the norm.

That's your choice whether you want to heal or not in Pug.

But what if classes that are pure DPS could tank or heal as an additional specialization that will alleviate the shortage? Some players prefer their class mainly because of fantasy, theme, or it just fits them well enough to actually enjoy the game. Why not give mage Chrono specialization where they can rewind time with magic spells or Shaman an Earthwarden Specialization where they can tank? It is already there, it is just that players like you prefer to keep problem the same than offering a functioning solution.

[Biomega]

Mythic Delves, tanks and healers can go solo then and forget the world exists.

Oh absolutely. Or quit the game or whatever else, entirely up to them.

But none of those SOLVE the tank/healer shortage is my point. You can ignore the problem or make it so it doesn't affect you - but that doesn't mean the problem is solved. It only means you don't care about the problem anymore, even though it still exists.

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That's your choice whether you want to heal or not in Pug.

But what if classes that are pure DPS could tank or heal as an additional specialization that will alleviate the shortage? Some players prefer their class mainly because of fantasy, theme, or it just fits them well enough to actually enjoy the game. Why not give mage Chrono specialization where they can rewind time with magic spells or Shaman an Earthwarden Specialization where they can tank? It is already there, it is just that players like you prefer to keep problem the same than offering a functioning solution.

The problem with that is that it doesn't actually get at the core issues. Those issues are not "I want to tank, but not on those classes" - they are "I don't want to tank, because being a tank is a toxic hellhole of responsibility and abuse" (in so many words). Being a Shaman tank doesn't magically mean you now don't have all that egregious responsibility, or don't suffer abuse.

While I'm sure adding more tank specs to other classes WOULD, in fact, increase the number of tanks SOMEWHAT, it would be far from a massive impact and it would not address the core issues tanks are complaining about.

[Alroxas]

What happens if a DPS dies, for example? Does that leave the 2 remaining DPS to handle the mechanic or can the tank/healer get involved at that point? If one of the DPS is constantly failing the mechanic, is letting them die and someone else taking over going to be the best call? Should letting a failing DPS die ever be the right call in high end content?

I get what you're saying, and I agree with you on it, but how to do it is in a way that doesn't lead to degenerate gameplay is the real question that needs to be answered I feel.

Swampface's tether change is a good example - They made the healer exempt from the mechanic unless someone dies then it targets the healer and should another person dies after that then the odd person out gets exempt from the mechanic.

But the nature of the change greatly shifted the mechanic (and stress) away from healers. Which is what the goal is - in order to make tanking and healing MORE appealing to players (especially in PuGs), the game needs to make it more appealing to do because in it's current state those two roles are very demanding and high stress relative to DPS which to be frank have a much easier time.


As for gimmick mechanics - yeah it's unfortunate that Blizzard may have to resort to that but maybe not. I could think of a few ways that mechanics that could work:

- Siegecrafter blackfuse back in SoO had a conveyor belt mechanic where a DPS would go and DPS a target that would determine what the rest of the raid would need to do - that could be adopted into a mechanic in a dungeon. A DPS could navigate over one of 3 switches that determines what kind of adds/mechanics the party would need to deal with. AND as a bonus difficulty - repeats of the same switch would increase that add/mechanics damage by some crazy high percentage so you have to pick the other options eventually.

- Alternatively, take that 2nd boss in Grim Rail Depot but expand that Assault Cannon mechanic. Provide a means for "crazy" high DPS but require the DPS to do secondary actions like killing adds to get ammo and loading said ammo into the cannons to fire at boss. Sure the option is always there to just DPS the boss but if the canon's DPS is significantly high (like each time it fires it takes 1/4 of the boss' total HP away) then the trade off might be worth the DPS to do the extra mechanics.

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It is already there, it is just that players like you prefer to keep problem the same than offering a functioning solution.

Having a mage be able to heal (or a shaman be able to tank) isn't a solution. More tank and healer specs don't magically create more tanks and healers for the game.

First, players have to want to be in those roles - which currently they don't because relatively speaking tanking and healing are higher responsibility and stress roles compared to DPS.

Second, WoW currently has 6 tank specs and 6 healing specs in game right now which is more than Blizzard can handle in terms of balancing for those two roles. Just look at tank diversity and healer diversity especially in dungeons. Sure things are usually fine in most dungeons under +10 but as you go higher, you start to see the dreaded "Meta". That's just going to get worse if all specs in the game have access to all 3 roles.

Third, the only real way to make players want to tank or heal more is to either make those roles more appealing OR make DPS less appealing. So either further reduce the amount of responsibility/stress that tanks and healers have (which to be honest leads to some pretty bad dungeon/encounter designs) OR start adding MORE responsibility and stress to the DPS.

There's a reason why in higher keys (+13 and higher), DPS use defensives a lot more proactively and are more reactive to interrupting/stunning enemy mobs - because at those higher key levels - those are 1-shots. No amount of healing (from the healer) is going to save the DPS so they pay a LOT more attention (or they simply die and the group probably falls apart after too many deaths). Meanwhile, over in the sub +10 dungeon, led a dungeon in number of interrupts... as a balance druid which has a 1 min CD on their interrupt (well technically 45s with the talent).

[Ereb]

Having a mage be able to heal (or a shaman be able to tank) isn't a solution. More tank and healer specs don't magically create more tanks and healers for the game.

So play a tank or healer for a while instead of that mage? Be a part of the solution, not problem. If everybody did that, the mage wouldn't have any issues with que times, or at the very least they would be significantly lower.

[Alroxas]

So play a tank or healer for a while instead of that mage? Be a part of the solution, not problem. If everybody did that, the mage wouldn't have any issues with que times, or at the very least they would be significantly lower.

I have both a well geared (660+) tank and healer but I don't do it in PuGs because the PuG M+ experience is horrible, unrewarding and just plain BAD especially in the lower key range. The amount of stress and responsibility (relative to PuG DPS) is the issue.


Until that changes (the stress and responsibility), there's very little that Blizzard can do to make me want to tank or heal in PuGs. Sure I'll do it for my guildmates or for pre-mades with my friends but at least with them, I know they can at least shoulder some of the responsibility and play competently even on their alts.

[Ereb]

I have both a well geared (660+) tank and healer but I don't do it in PuGs because the PuG M+ experience is horrible, unrewarding and just plain BAD especially in the lower key range. The amount of stress and responsibility (relative to PuG DPS) is the issue.

The only stress available is self-inflicted...I pug 10s all the time (at 660+ you can too) and majority of those runs are smooth and event less. Especially as the tank as you control the pace you just do what u do and that's it. lol

Pugs aren't the problem. Your mindset is.

[Alroxas]

The only stress available is self-inflicted...I pug 10s all the time (at 660+ you can too) and majority of those runs are smooth and event less. Especially as the tank as you control the pace you just do what u do and that's it. lol

So what tank doesn't need to know routes ahead of time? Or know about various skips? Or techniques to be efficient in count or handling certain mobs (like Bubbles in Floodgate)?

Sorry but my BS meter is going way off on this one.

[Ereb]

So what tank doesn't need to know routes ahead of time? Or know about various skips? Or techniques to be efficient in count or handling certain mobs (like Bubbles in Floodgate)?

Sorry but my BS meter is going way off on this one.

yea the BS meter is picking up your own filth LMAO.

I have gotten KSM and KSH every season, on multiple classes, as tank (Im a tank main). I almost NEVER study or look up routes that shit is cringe. You learn your own routes by playing the game. I am not special. I am not amazing at WoW either. I am as normal and basic of a bitch as you'll find. If I can do it you can I promise you. Finding spots in the dungeon where you know you need to meet a certain % requirement before continuing, and creating your own route that way. It's not like it is ever going to change for months and months and months as the season endures

Everything you mentioned is learned naturally by just playing the game bro. If you tank with your guildies already like you claim, you know everything you have to do anyway? So doubling down in the BS is your approach?

Like I said, bad mindset. If you want to hold yourself back by all means, but don't pretend it's the game's fault lol

You like like a PHD is needed to play wow, when in reality it's nothing more than basic effort.

[Alroxas]

yea the BS meter is picking up your own filth LMAO.

Well then agree to disagree then. But you haven't changed my opinion on the subject matter - I still won't tank or heal a PuG M+ unless there's drastic changes. I'm fine with staying DPS until then.

[Ereb]

Well then agree to disagree then. But you haven't changed my opinion on the subject matter - I still won't tank or heal a PuG M+ unless there's drastic changes. I'm fine with staying DPS until then.

I'm not here to change your mind I'm here to tell it like it is. You are free to continue to be part of the problem

[Twdft]

So what tank doesn't need to know routes ahead of time? Or know about various skips? Or techniques to be efficient in count or handling certain mobs (like Bubbles in Floodgate)?

Sorry but my BS meter is going way off on this one.

If you get to +10 you kinda ran every dungeon a couple times already so you should have at least a rough route in your head.

And it doesn't really matter if you get it down to the last %. The other day I tanked a +6 floodgate on a trash alt and forgot to clear the bomb after big mama. We got back to it before Swampface and a good laugh was had by everyone. I really don't know why some people encounter so much bad vibes in m+ or think every thing has to be perfect. High keys should be more perfect play but up to +10 just have a rough plan and go tank it.

[StrawberryZebra]

Swampface's tether change is a good example - They made the healer exempt from the mechanic unless someone dies then it targets the healer and should another person dies after that then the odd person out gets exempt from the mechanic.

I'm not sure how your groups handle Swampface, but mine pretty much always just stack on the tank and move left whenever he does a Mudslide. It's not really a "mechanic" as much as it's a minor annoyance.

I'm also confident that you've never been tethered to an Outlaw Rogue on this boss - It's not a good time. You get dragged all over the damn place whenever they use Killing Spree. Demon Hunters are a pain in the neck here too. Far from forcing DPS to adjust their movement, it pushes the hassle onto the person they're tethered too.

So what tank doesn't need to know routes ahead of time? Or know about various skips? Or techniques to be efficient in count or handling certain mobs (like Bubbles in Floodgate)?

Mythic Dungeon Tools handles most of this. Having the route open on a second monitor does the job too. Once you've done the dungeon a few times you figure out how to route it without needing them but they're useful as a learning tool. MDT is useful for sharing your route with others which, in my experience at least, helps cut down the number of times DPS "help" with pulling trash.

I almost never bother with skips in my routes - My experience has usually been that they cause more problems than the solve. And the more complex the skip, the more problems it causes. I use the Sam rule. Sam is a Warlock I play with who's ability to ass-pull is unrivaled. Walking around groups is fine, so are Warlock portals. Anything that involves a jump, mounts or patrols is a no-no. Anything that involves Death skips Mind soothe or any form of stealth is off the table too. Sam will fuck that up, guaranteed.

The Sam rule is, simply, "Can Sam do this skip reliably?". If its a yes, then it's usually a safe one for a PUG. If not, then it's not going in the route. That might upset Johnny Big Bollocks who wants to do every single skip know to mankind, but when he tanks the key he can use his route. When I tank it, we're doing mine.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The solution is that if a queue lasts for 5 minutes or longer for Blizzard to begin drafting people at random as tanks. Doesn't matter what your spec is. Are you a Warlock? You get a 500% HP and DEF buff and aggro stance slapped on you and a temporary taunt button. You vill tank or you will get banned from WoW for 10 days. Now start pulling!

[Relapses]

The solution is that if a queue lasts for 5 minutes or longer for Blizzard to begin drafting people at random as tanks. Doesn't matter what your spec is. Are you a Warlock? You get a 500% HP and DEF buff and aggro stance slapped on you and a temporary taunt button. You vill tank or you will get banned from WoW for 10 days. Now start pulling!

This is, perhaps, the worst suggestion I've ever seen on this forum.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

This is, perhaps, the worst suggestion I've ever seen on this forum.

Worse, it's not even a creative troll. Low effort.

re: swampface I usually stand on the other side as a healer to try and bait a few of the slams so nobody else has to move. I don't think it's a big deal either way, but I find it also makes it easier for me to dodge waves while healing with less clutter.

[thunderdragon2]

there are many tanks and healers in the game, they just dont want to play with randoms, sue to the abuse that mainly tanks take when joining a pug every1 just automatically blame the tank/healer when a death or wipe occurs. this make them not want to play in pugs and only guild/friend gprs

[Alroxas]

re: swampface I usually stand on the other side as a healer to try and bait a few of the slams so nobody else has to move. I don't think it's a big deal either way, but I find it also makes it easier for me to dodge waves while healing with less clutter.

Yes you can do that now (after blizzard made the change) but initial launch of floodgate, you couldn't do this. The healer could be picked to be tether just like any other player which meant stacking with the DPS and tank and moving the same direction lest you be yanked by the chain.

Which was also frustrating to deal with along with the waves and damage that needed to be healed during that phase - hence the change to exempt the healer from the tethers (unless someone dies) so that the healer can pre-position safely and just focus on healing (and less on movement/dodging)

March 12, 2025
Dungeons and Raids

• Operation: Floodgate
• Swampface chains targeting updated to prefer non-healers

(source)

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there are many tanks and healers in the game, they just dont want to play with randoms, sue to the abuse that mainly tanks take when joining a pug every1 just automatically blame the tank/healer when a death or wipe occurs. this make them not want to play in pugs and only guild/friend gprs

It's not just blame, it's also that the M+ environment is also bad in lower keys - the expectation is that DPS believes that healers and tanks can make up for their "mistakes".

Case in point, Stonevault in TWW S1 - doing a lowish key (around a +6) about a month into S1 on my healer alt. Run is going poorly but I still with it because hey it's a +6 right? We get to the last boss and Void Speaker puts a debuff that cannot be dispelled by the healer. You have to physically move to a void rift to get rid of it (or be a DK with AMZ but there's no DKs in the group so it doesn't apply). Sure enough, the DPS don't remove their debuffs and start dying. And we wipe, after the wipe I tell them the mechanic and how to deal with it (move to the void rift to remove the debuff). And we wipe again to the very same mechanic. Eventually after the 3rd or 4th attempt, we finish the dungeon and I suggest to the group - hey it might be worthwhile for them to run these dungeon at the M0 level at the minimum to learn the mechanics because not knowing even the basics is going to be rough for them going even higher in keys.

Their response? "Fuck no, ain't nobody got time for that"

Well, that's pretty much one of the primary reasons why I don't want to heal or tank for PuGs.