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  1. #201
    Legendary! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah. Blizzard catered to their "core" auditory and changed their game, so it's no longer solo-friendly. Has it become better?
    It has absolutely become better. They have added more content you can do solo than ever before. Any additions to the game, similar to solo-friendly content or not, is better.

    What you consider "solo-friendly" once again has to come into question. You've spent years trying to explain your stance and never can do more than vaguely post what you think Blizzard's intentions are, throw out random and arbitrary numbers for statistics you pull out of your ass, and never once answer the very first question: why do you still play WoW if you truly believe the drivel you spout about it?

    And this "core audience" you keep referencing: you mean the people who... play the game?
    Who do the things in-game that are available to them?
    Or do you mean people who aren't you
    Last edited by KOUNTERPARTS; 2025-01-13 at 06:55 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    eh... i have some 2h on average per day in wow, that is 60h a month for 11e of sub and 50e expansion which is for roughly 2 years, so 50/24 2 and something lets be generous and go with 4 so total of 15e for 60h
    i think you would struggle a bit even to find game that you can play for 60h and still not be done in todays market, let alone one that costs only 15e, multiple games for that amount are delusion, unless you include some games on steam with 90% off

    so maybe you could get more from other games for the same money if you play VERY LITTLE wow, in which case yeah, dont pay for service that you dont use, duh...
    but if you actualy do play actively (and hell there are people who play WAY more than 2h a day on average) its very cheap in comparison...

    and before you go with "but you do the same things multiple times" yeah, you do, like in most of the games, VERY few games have little to no repetition, and those wouldnt be for 15e...
    Comparing the repetition in WoW (or most MMOs) to the repetition in most single-player games is disingenuous at best. Retail WoW is about repetition. It's the core of the game. You do the same content over and over and over again, often with days between it at best, but sometimes just minutes.

    If you are down for minimalist visuals, Caves of Qud will give you hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours for $30.

    Elder Scrolls 5 can easily give you a couple of hundred hours, and it's usually around $10.

    You can get 100+ hours out of Fallout 3, and that's usually similar to ES5.

    Darkest Dungeon can give you a hundred hours. It's $24.

    I recently got 80 hours out of a free game called Moonring.

    Pathfinder: Kingmaker is 199 hours on HowLongToBeat for a completionist. It's $4 right now.

    I can keep going because if I search Steam for single-player RPGs under $5 I get almost 10,000 results. If 99% of them are trash, that's 100 games to play.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    It has absolutely become better. They have added more content you can do solo than ever before. Any additions to the game, similar to solo-friendly content or not, is better.

    What you consider "solo-friendly" once again has to come into question. You've spent years trying to explain your stance and never can do more than vaguely post what you think Blizzard's intentions are, throw out random and arbitrary numbers for statistics you pull out of your ass, and never once answer the very first question: why do you still play WoW if you truly believe the drivel you spout about it?

    And this "core audience" you keep referencing: you mean the people who... play the game?
    Who do the things in-game that are available to them?
    Or do you mean people who aren't you
    I've read probably hundreds of his posts, and I have no idea what he wants.
    Last edited by NineSpine; 2025-01-13 at 07:36 PM.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    what the game had then it doesnt have now? and specificaly please, not some vague shit...
    It had solo progression. It's hard to explain, if you've never played such way. WOD for example. Leveling to 90 in all previous xpacks was some sort of journey. I liked leveling in WotLK, Cata, MOP (except no flying). So, it was great to replay all these xpacks while leveling. Then it was short intro at 90. Then Garrison, that was available immediately, not gated behind leveling or something like that. Then leveling to 100 in very immersive locations. Then opening Tanaan. Since then I was able to do outdoor endgame. But I was completing leveling anyway, because I liked it. Tanaan had perfect difficulty. 90% of rares were soloable in base gear. Other 10% - in full Baleful. Tanaan was about ~40-60mins of mandatory daily content. Then I had time to play other characters, if I wished to. And then leveling Garrison via logging in 2 times/day. In a morning and evening.

    Almost the same for Legion. Except I didn't like to complete whole leveling. Especially later stages, like Suramar. Cuz Legion was first xpack in Wow's history, that suffered from what I call quest bloat. I liked to complete one location. Azsuna for example. Then Class hall campaign. Then, again, mission table. Then WQs to complete callings. And leveling mission table followers.

    And what we have in DF? Broken leveling? Part of leveling is account wide and part isn't? So you have to always start in main location and then you have 2 boring locations, where you have to help some no-name mobs from old xpacks. Then you have to go to Emerald Dream, where you have another boring part of campaign. Just a little bit longer one, but still boring. And then that's it. Nothing else to do. Because everything else - is bunch of scheduled GW2 AFK events, that are about waiting for 50 mins for event, that lasts for 10 minutes. But only if there are other players to do everything for you, while you can sit AFK there. Because events aren't soloable.

    Only things you can do there: solo or TW dungeons. You get tired of same TW dungeons pretty quickly. Especially when you have to wait for 15-20 minutes only to get 71+ healer/tank, who wipes your group 100500 times in a row. And solo dungeons? They're way too boring. I understand, that reward system takes into account, that I can aim at any specific item, cuz there is no deserter there, so I can restart it at any moment. Yeah, it's not less effective, than ZM's RNG fraud, so it could take month for some item to appear. But playing such way is way too boring.
    FOMO, gating, RNG, grind, overtuning, competition - endgame.
    Solo MMO: no more humiliating queues and toxic competing.
    Aggro and combat: game would only be better without obsoleted mechanics.
    DF in a nutshell: GW2 copy-paste with AFK events and nothing to do.

  4. #204
    I'd pay good money for a well-made single player Warcraft game.

    Single player WoW is not that game, of course, because it's not designed as a single-player game.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  5. #205
    Legendary! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It's hard to explain
    Clearly. I'd give you points for attempting to explain but this is the same song and dance you engage in over and over and over.
    Walls of text and saying absolutely nothing at the same time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    because it's not designed as a single-player game.
    Shhhh, don't tell people that. They are the same people who still play Super Mario 64 and complain they can't explore more of the outside of the castle.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Clearly. I'd give you points for attempting to explain but this is the same song and dance you engage in over and over and over.
    Walls of text and saying absolutely nothing at the same time.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Shhhh, don't tell people that. They are the same people who still play Super Mario 64 and complain they can't explore more of the outside of the castle.
    The only thing I can parse out from the walls of text are "I used to like the content, but now I don't." Cool man, same here, so I stopped playing retail. Problem solved.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    a lot of empty words
    so to sum up the tirade, content you actualy mentioned:
    quests, rares, world quests, mision table... which except the mision table - which is few clicks and thats it, that i barely see as content - we ALL HAVE, and much more on top...

    and i know you are mentaly elsewhere but current game is tww, not df, but what df had?
    well, all you mentioned except mision tables, plus about half a dozen world events... like im not saying you have to like them but they are there ON TOP of things you mentioned, so just bcs you DECIDED to ignore majority of content doesnt mean there is less content, no matter how twisted logic you use to excuse that delusions...

    i loved wrath (i main DK since), but the amount of non-raid content it had compared to modern expansions is LAUGHABLE, if expansion or patches like that were released today it would be hated... we are talking about expansion that had CLASS TUNING as patch feature...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    snip
    so your examples are either:
    not less than 15bucks
    ages old
    more comparable to minesweeper
    repetitive
    in MASSIVE discount
    combination of above

    why just not go with chess? to me that would be closer to good example than any you used...

    also, there might be 10000 games under 5bucks, but there is reason for that... most of them are unplayable shite... and those 10-20 (definitely not 100 lol) that are worth the look are usualy short as hell...

    likee im not saying its impossible to find "alternative", just saying for what wow is and how much fun you can have out of it its very cheap...
    ofc there always be alternative, simply bcs people enjoy different things, personaly for me all games you mentioned TOGETHER would be pretty much 0h of fun, if they are woth your time and money to you good for you, for me i wouldnt bother with them even for free
    Last edited by Lolites; 2025-01-13 at 09:03 PM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    so your examples are either:
    Sorry, I'm having a little trouble because I can't even see the goalpost anymore after all those shifts you are doing. That thing is on the other side of the city now.

    not less than 15bucks
    Why does every game have to be under $15? If it gives you multiple months of play, WoW costs more than $15 over that time. In fact, it always costs more than $15 on average, because of expansions.

    ages old
    Oh, now old games don't count for... reasons.

    more comparable to minesweeper
    I'm not even sure which game you are referring to.

    repetitive
    This criticism would mean something if we weren't comparing it to WoW.

    in MASSIVE discount
    Ah yes, we all now how when we buy games we are concerned with the sticker price and not what it actually will cost us. What even is this argument?

    combination of above
    Don't even know what you are referring to.

    why just not go with chess? to me that would be closer to good example than any you used...
    You genuinely believe that WoW is closer to Chess than it is to Elder Scrolls or Pathfinder?

    It's extremely clear that no matter what I listed you would make excuses for why it doesn't count. Every other game in the universe could literally be free and you'd have some way to pretend that they all don't count.

    also, there might be 10000 games under 5bucks, but there is reason for that... most of them are unplayable shite... and those 10-20 (definitely not 100 lol) that are worth the look are usualy short as hell...
    Except Pathfinder, which is $4 right now, and has hundreds of hours of content.

    likee im not saying its impossible to find "alternative", just saying for what wow is and how much fun you can have out of it its very cheap...
    ofc there always be alternative, simply bcs people enjoy different things, personaly for me all games you mentioned TOGETHER would be pretty much 0h of fun, if they are woth your time and money to you good for you, for me i wouldnt bother with them even for free
    If your argument is "I only like one video game and I refuse to even acknowledge the existence of the rest of them" then just say so, rather than make some batshit argument about how games don't count if they are from 2011, or how it's only OK to be repetitive if you have the word "warcraft" in the name.
    Last edited by NineSpine; 2025-01-13 at 09:06 PM.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    so to sum up the tirade, content you actualy mentioned:
    quests, rares, world quests, mision table... which except the mision table - which is few clicks and thats it, that i barely see as content - we ALL HAVE, and much more on top...

    and i know you are mentaly elsewhere but current game is tww, not df, but what df had?
    well, all you mentioned except mision tables, plus about half a dozen world events... like im not saying you have to like them but they are there so just bcs you DECIDED to ignore majority of content doesnt mean there is less content, no matter how twisted logic you use to excuse that delusions...

    i loved wrath (i main DK since), but the amount of non-raid content it had compared to modern expansions is LAUGHABLE, if expansion or patches like that were released today it would be hated... we are talking about expansion that had CLASS TUNING as patch feature...
    Why ask questions, if you don't like answers? What do you want to hear? Listing kinds of content is pointless, because they have to work as whole to be enjoyable. Progression route - is the most important thing for me. That's why I always describe progression routes of xpacks, I liked to play. Current xpacks don't have such progression routes, cuz they aren't desingned to be played such way. They may have disjoined parts of content here and there in the best case. Zero content in the worst case. I give DF as example because if DF is so bad, why do you think that TWW is better? Name any changes (except delves), that make it better than DF.
    FOMO, gating, RNG, grind, overtuning, competition - endgame.
    Solo MMO: no more humiliating queues and toxic competing.
    Aggro and combat: game would only be better without obsoleted mechanics.
    DF in a nutshell: GW2 copy-paste with AFK events and nothing to do.

  10. #210
    It's already a singleplayer game. You don't need to group to do anything but raid.

    better question is: Would you still play WoW if they reverted back to teamplay (I.E: needing the class and not the player) go back before everyone was homogenized to heal themselves, have big bursty CDs etc.

    The reason Classic still exist in the capacity it does is because it values teamwork over the Solo player. Sure you can' play classic solo, but you're not going to enjoy it.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i loved wrath (i main DK since), but the amount of non-raid content it had compared to modern expansions is LAUGHABLE, if expansion or patches like that were released today it would be hated... we are talking about expansion that had CLASS TUNING as patch feature...
    Quests
    Wrath: 3,849
    War: 1,883

    Launch Dungeons
    Wrath: 12
    War: 8

    Battlegrounds
    Wrath: 2 + Wintergrasp
    War: 1

    Factions
    Wrath: 7
    War: 4
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #212
    No, I play classic with my wife as "our game" and raiding is kind of like date-night. We make nice easy to eat pick food and have a blast with our guild.

    I would however play a single player Warcraft game taking you through Wc1-Wc3 TFT as an Action RPG (Witcher-like)

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Quests
    Wrath: 3,849
    War: 1,883

    Launch Dungeons
    Wrath: 12
    War: 8

    Battlegrounds
    Wrath: 2 + Wintergrasp
    War: 1

    Factions
    Wrath: 7
    War: 4
    This is the equivalent of using average model polygon count to determine the quality of a video game. I'm actually impressed by your ability to consistently make the worst comparisons on this message board.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It had solo progression. It's hard to explain, if you've never played such way. WOD for example. Leveling to 90 in all previous xpacks was some sort of journey. I liked leveling in WotLK, Cata, MOP (except no flying). So, it was great to replay all these xpacks while leveling. Then it was short intro at 90. Then Garrison, that was available immediately, not gated behind leveling or something like that. Then leveling to 100 in very immersive locations. Then opening Tanaan. Since then I was able to do outdoor endgame. But I was completing leveling anyway, because I liked it. Tanaan had perfect difficulty. 90% of rares were soloable in base gear. Other 10% - in full Baleful. Tanaan was about ~40-60mins of mandatory daily content. Then I had time to play other characters, if I wished to. And then leveling Garrison via logging in 2 times/day. In a morning and evening.
    So your ideal WoW situation is:

    - Leveling (not too much or too little, just the right amount to call it a journey)
    - Max level endgame zone with 40-60 min/day mandatory content (not too hard or too easy)
    - Some in-game chores to complete so you can log on every morning and eveing to sort them

    Huh. You like busywork.

    Still can't really figure out why you're playing one expac behind, but at this point, I think it's probably better if you don't try to explain it.
    Last edited by AudibleEscalation; 2025-01-13 at 11:09 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    This is the equivalent of using average model polygon count to determine the quality of a video game. I'm actually impressed by your ability to consistently make the worst comparisons on this message board.
    Show me on the doll where the math hurt you.

    You are still allowed to like the current expansion even if WoTLK had plenty of content. You'll be ok. Stop acting like anything but "EVERY OLDER VERSION OF WOW WAS A DOGSHIT MISTAKE! THE CURRENT EXPANSION IS PERFECTION! PRAISE ION! PRAISE MICROSOFT" is some horrific bad faith offense.
    Last edited by NineSpine; 2025-01-13 at 11:21 PM.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Show me on the doll where the math hurt you.
    It's not the math that hurts me, it's the fact that these comparisons ignore all the other things that have changed about the game in the 15 years between their development to draw an empirical conclusion which doesn't track with reality. Put another way, referring only to the quests: If 90% of the quests are "collect 20 bear asses," and there are simply twice as many of them, that doesn't necessarily mean that one is better than the other. (It also doesn't account for things like WQs.) It's simply a bad metric to compare things by.

    You are still allowed to like the current expansion even if WoTLK had plenty of content. You'll be ok. Stop acting like anything but "EVERY OLDER VERSION OF WOW WAS A DOGSHIT MISTAKE! THE CURRENT EXPANSION IS PERFECTION! PRAISE ION! PRAISE MICROSOFT" is some horrific bad faith offense.
    Whatever you say, Mr. Quixote.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's not the math that hurts me, it's the fact that these comparisons ignore all the other things that have changed about the game in the 15 years between their development to draw an empirical conclusion which doesn't track with reality. Put another way, referring only the quests: If 90% of the quests are "collect 20 bear asses," and there are simply twice as many of them, that doesn't necessarily mean that one is better than the other. (It also doesn't account for things like WQs.) It's simply a bad metric to compare things by.

    Whatever you say, Mr. Quixote.
    You are the only one talking about what is "better". If you stopped getting so weirdly, reflexively defensive of retail WoW for a second, you'd know we are talking about quantity, not quality.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Futch View Post
    It's already a singleplayer game. You don't need to group to do anything but raid.

    better question is: Would you still play WoW if they reverted back to teamplay (I.E: needing the class and not the player) go back before everyone was homogenized to heal themselves, have big bursty CDs etc.

    The reason Classic still exist in the capacity it does is because it values teamwork over the Solo player. Sure you can' play classic solo, but you're not going to enjoy it.
    Ah, yes. Retail wow, not known for insane levels of coordination and teamwork required at all.
    "Your Mother." -Blade, Midnight Suns

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You are the only one talking about what is "better". If you stopped getting so weirdly, reflexively defensive of retail WoW for a second, you'd know we are talking about quantity, not quality.
    It still doesn't track even in that regard because it assumes that what players do when they're bored is... do quests, or something. There weren't hundreds and thousands of max level characters out their finishing Loremaster just for the helluvit. No, a vast majority were mostly doing group content -- an area of the game where if you compare WotLK to TWW on, TWW wins handily. I'm not defending TWW as much as I am criticizing the ways you try to bend reality to fit your bad arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Ah, yes. Retail wow, not known for insane levels of coordination and teamwork required at all.
    I'm soloing +15s with ease. Granted, I have 4 other NPCs in the group that sometimes say things like "stop pulling too much, we're dying" and "what the fuck dude, just wipe the boss already," but I assume that's because Blizzard is bad at programming and will eventually stop making it so they leave my group after the first wipe.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It still doesn't track even in that regard because it assumes that what players do when they're bored is... do quests, or something. There weren't hundreds and thousands of max level characters out their finishing Loremaster just for the helluvit. No, a vast majority were mostly doing group content -- an area of the game where if you compare WotLK to TWW on, TWW wins handily. I'm not defending TWW as much as I am criticizing the ways you try to bend reality to fit your bad arguments.
    Nothing you said has anything whatsoever to do with which expansion had more content. If you want to argue with someone about which has the better endgame structure, go find someone who is talking about that. I'm talking about the volume of content, because that is the issue that was raised.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Ah, yes. Retail wow, not known for insane levels of coordination and teamwork required at all.
    It's pretty clear that that is not what they were talking about.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

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