Would you still play WoW if it was totally single-player?

[Mysterymask]

But there are groups of players, who have similar tastes. MP playerbase and SP playerbase - are very big groups.

You realize there's quite a bit of overlap between those groups right
Like hell with the WC3 example a lot of people played the campaign and then went right into online playing DOTA. I myself enjoy playing Wow but will dabble in Balatro and am going to enjoy FF7 Rebirth tonight after a couple of Marvel Infinite games with a buddy. Most people aren't solely singleplayer or solely multiplayer many people do both and happily.

You aren't the world buddy

[Kilpi]

Whats the point of self expression in a single player game. Express yourself to yourself? I usually just go with default character name and appearance since I am the only one playing and therefore do not need individualism

What? You think self expression is pointless if you don't share your stuff with others? You think everyone that paints, creates music, does whatever form of self expression is doing it to share with others? Same with games. I don't care what other people think about what I do in games, even in WoW. I transmog my character because I want my character to look cool while I do stuff. If no one sees my character ever, why would I care? A lot of singleplayer games have transmog in some form? Why? No one else can see your character, so why would that be needed?

That's a weird take...

[Triceron]

Whats the point of self expression in a single player game. Express yourself to yourself? I usually just go with default character name and appearance since I am the only one playing and therefore do not need individualism

That's you though. Plenty of people pick characters that suit their personal choices over using 'whatever default'. That you don't care doesn't mean it is somehow pointless to do.

Individualism is very common in any singleplayer game with choices. Having preferences over certain characters, weapons, abilities, classes or upgrade paths... All of that is unique to you and a form of individual choice. Even choosing to use raccoon suit over fire flower is a form of self expression, albeit quite a simplified version. Choice and preference is all a part of defining how you play, abd how it is unique to you. That unique play style is a form of self expression, your personal customized way to play.

It's not just in naming a character, it's in everything you do. Your choice to talk to an NPC or skip past them, your choice to break all jars or search a room for possible secrets, your choice to kill every enemy in your path or just run past them. These are all part of your identity, whether you are intent in public expression or not.

Same way playing a piece of music is a form of self expression. Even if you're playing an instrument and following a template that millions of others have also used, the way you play is unique to you. Even if no one is there to hear it.

[WowIsDead64]

You realize all of this and everything you value here os subjective, right? Whether a game is good, whether it has replay value, whether it has immersion - all of these are subjective.

No one can tell you whether a game is good or bad, whether it has replay value to you, or whether it will be immersive. These are all subjectively defined.

For example, I am a pragmatic power gamer. I don't often get immersed in many games (especially RPGs), I treat them as glorious health bars and numbers. So when I play Zelda or Mass Effect or Witcher, I'm not bought into the story and world, I tend to distance myself from it. I enjoy RPGs more for their design and combat mechanics, I often don't get lost in story or the world. In fact, I'm a notorious cut scene skipper. I find that complex combat mechanics and puzzles often take me out of any immersive experience. I still admire music and graphics, but more as a backdrop for gameplay than me being 'in a world'. I tend to be more immersed when not playing a game and just randomly exploring with no goal in mind. But if there is a quest to do or a mob to kill? My mind is set on efficiency and calculations, like how a speedrunner plays.

But a game like 2D Sonic? I get immersed into the world much more than any RPG I've played, including all those you listed. Diablo 2 is also a game that I love, both aesthetically and through gameplay. But I've never lost myself in the world the way I have for a platformer like Sonic. And my experience is my own, no one can define immersion for me any more than I could define that Sonic is more immersive than RPGs for other people.

And the point here is that WoW if has become a game that you personally have found less replayable, it doesn't mean the game actually is less replayable. Just like if you don't find a truck sim to be very immersive, it only applies to you as an individual.

All games can be considered immersive, and that value is purely subjective. Even the original Atari or Amiga games that used ascii can be immersive to people. Look at Dwarf Fortress, which was purely ascii based. Look at Minecraft, with its intentionally pixelated aesthetics. Hell, even Tetris has been commended for providing immersive experiences.

IMO, if you want more replay out of WoW, maybe you could find an RP server that might provide some immersion to the monotony of end game multiplayer grinds. Having real time immersive interaction could make up for the 'board game's deficits. Much like how D&D is built around user generated immersion, moreso than any predetermined campaign module.

These groups are also valuing good and bad subjectively.
You said earlier it was not subjective, while you are openly admitting now that it is, and that large groups can share similar tastes. Those tastes are still subjective.

May be immersion isn't 100% right word here. It's more about liking gameplay. Not all people are able to buy IRL train. Even toy train, cuz good toy train can be expensive. IRL toys also have limitations. Real train station would require lots of space, money and effort to build. Plus you usually want bigger toys, when you grow up. And real IRL train isn't affordable. That's why we play video games instead of buying real IRL toys. Video games don't have such limitations. Some people like cars. Some people like trains. Some people like planes. Some people like fantasy worlds. That's it. Yeah, you're too pragmatic to understand it. But not all players are like you. We play games not because they have things to do for us. If you do it, then you're manipulated by predatory mechanics like FOMO. We play games, because we like it. And in this case replayability value doesn't matter.

And again. For now we don't talk about changing game such way, that would suit my individual subjective needs. We talk about large group of players. SP playerbase. What SP playerbase needs - is not to rely on other players. No content should require any external help. Everything else - is about details.

[MCMLXXXII]

Great analogy, everyone who likes trains really wants a train station?
Or maybe they just buy a modeltrain?
Comparing this to trains: you want to have a train so you buy an aeroplane. Not the same but it's also transportation.

WoW is an MMO, that means multiplayer. And even though it's a multiplayer game they've catered the single players enough the last couple of expansions, even more then in the past.

[BlackBoss]

I’m playing now as a single player. Delves and not having to group up for quests is awesome. If I need help, list myself, someone joins, we kill together and both receive credit and leave group. It’s euphoric! No drama, no racism (all my characters have “Black” in the name and I get racist whispers on a pretty normal basis). I haven’t had this much fun in the game since Wrath. The mythic plus stuff worries me as it did seem as though that was very competitive which breeds shitty behavior and attitudes, but the delves are life! Loving them. I do miss raiding with my guild.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

No. The game is a good MMO but not a good single-player game. If I wanted to play a single-player loot-collection game, there are many better ones to play.

[Ielenia]

But there are groups of players, who have similar tastes. MP playerbase and SP playerbase - are very big groups.

You're missing the point (and I'd go as far as claiming you're intentionally ignoring it) that there's no such thing as an "objectively good" game (or game feature), because "good" or "bad" is always a matter of personal preference, i.e., subjective.

You of all people should know that, considering every time you laud a game or game feature as "good", there's a ton of people who respond to your claims disagreeing with you. Lots of people, if not the majority.

[Triceron]

May be immersion isn't 100% right word here. It's more about liking gameplay. mechanics like FOMO. We play games, because we like it. --- And in this case replayability value doesn't matter.

Again, all values here are subjective, and if you can't quantify a reason for chsnge beyond 'because I want it', you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

You see, we got here because you implied there being a problem with the game, with its immersion or its replay value or it just 'being bad'. Now we're at a point where you realize these are the wrong words, and that these values aren't important.

You're now shifting goalposts to something you never discussed with me before, that being 'predatory mechanics like FOMO'.

Again, this is not a problem with the game. If you know FOMO exists and you still buy into it, it is 100% on you to blame. Just like knowing a substance to be addicting and still using it. Do we say Cocaine should be made less addicting so drug users can more freely enjoy it without fear of repercussion? No, we don't. The only way to beat it is to not buy into it and learning self restraint. I know this from experience, having been addicted to WoW and burning myself out on it years ago. I'm also a big LEGO fan, a company notorious for retiring sets early and building up FOMO. The best and only way to combat it is self restraint and will power. Because FOMO is a form of addiction brought on by an individual, and you need to recognize that. It is an irrational FEAR. It is also privy to individuals, and the way to combat it is to recognize it, and employ self restraint, not by chsnging with content release or rewards.

All games, and even movies, have an element of FOMO to them. For RPG's it's often meta driven like experiencing a story before some asshat online spoils the twist. And how do things like this get spoiled online? When people can't control their passion and seek out places where open discussion happens, risking things getting leaked. Again, a lack of self control. This problem doesn't exist if one simply avoids social media related to it. It wouldn't pop up on your feed if you aren't seeking it out.

And what examples of FOMO are exactly ruining Singleplayer? Let's face it, it's not. You're just ranting about problems that are unrelated to what you actually want to do. What are you missing out on if you don't do the content while it's fresh? Most if not all FOMO rewards are tied to multiplayer content anyways, while things like Trading Post cosmetics are purely optional. You only miss out on things you feel you need to have to enjoy the game, and only individuals can combat their desires. Ultimately the only way to Blizzard could combat FOMO is to not give out rewards or having a story with interesting events worth discussing. Is that what everyone wants?

Like I have distanced myself from feeling a need to collect everything to beat my own addiction. I burned out and had to kearn the hard way. I still deal with it today collecting other things, like Lego or any type of Collectible figures that interest me. I have s bit of OCD in completing things for the sake if completion, more than it really interests me. Like if someone gifted me a single season of a TV show, I'd want to get all seasons to complete it. Everyone has to deal with this in their own way. The practices are not predatory if you learn to not take the bait. Make sense? Self restraint on desire of things that you don't need to make you happy. FOMO plays on individuals manifesting desires and self gratification, much in the same way gambling does. I don't buy into loot boxes for the same reason, self restraint.

And again. For now we don't talk about changing game such way, that would suit my individual subjective needs. We talk about large group of players. SP playerbase. What SP playerbase needs - is not to rely on other players. No content should require any external help. Everything else - is about details.

This is the worst type of argument, and illustrates the 'Fix what isn't broken' problem with your ideas here.

You want to design for a large group, yet literally no one has taken your side in this entire argument, illustrating how alone you are and how far removed in reality you are to what people actually want for singleplayer.

I sm a solo WoW player too, and like I said, you don't speak for me. So who ARE you speaking out for? Where is this large group supporting your argument? Reality check - you're alone in this. You are advocating for yourself while hiding behind a facade of a fictional large group of players that want exactly what you want.

This is no difference than if I said removing world PVP would bring back millions of unsubbed players who hate open world pvp like me. You see how easy it is to make empty claims to support my completely bogus argument? Or I could say we should remove WoW and focus on Starcraft MMO because there were more SC fans than Warcraft 2/3 players. I'm backed by millions of SC fans who wants an MMO. See? Easy to claim.

[WowIsDead64]

You try to lead this discussion to dead end, cuz we don't have SP vs MP metrics. No metrics = subjective. Yeah? SP games exist. There are successful AAA SP games. There is SP auditory. Therefore there is nothing wrong about adding SP elements and removing MP limitations to make game more accessible for wider auditory. Almost all MP games are about making game intentionally bad just for sake of keeping it MP. For example everybody realizes, that FOMO is bad. But no FOMO => no player retention => worse quality of MP content => losing even more players => even worse quality of content. It's like swimming against current.

[Triceron]

You try to lead this discussion to dead end, cuz we don't have SP vs MP metrics. No metrics = subjective. Yeah? SP games exist. There are successful AAA SP games. There is SP auditory. Therefore there is nothing wrong about adding SP elements and removing MP limitations to make game more accessible for wider auditory. Almost all MP games are about making game intentionally bad just for sake of keeping it MP. For example everybody realizes, that FOMO is bad. But no FOMO => no player retention => worse quality of MP content => losing even more players => even worse quality of content. It's like swimming against current.

Removing what limitation?

What multiplay FOMO is in the way of your content?

Your entire argument centered on a baseless 'grass is greener' fallacy, that any multiplayer devrlopment is 'costing you raid tier'.

Like Blizzard has even hired a completely new team to tackle things like Plunder Storm and Player Housing, which doesn't affect raid balance or questing or PVP development. Yet here you sre suggesting it is a threat to singleplayer, with zero evidence to back it up, just a gut feeling and a knee jerk reaction.

Like I said, why change multiplayer if your concern has nothing to do with multiplayer? Your arguments are completely and subjectively irrational. You do understand, everyone here has replied to you pointing out your irrationality, right? You just keep circling with more more subjective values and opinions that doesn't support why multiplayer jas anything to do with your want for better solo play.

What solo FOMO mechanics are you even complaining about? You can't even give a single example.

If you unsubbed TODAY, what solo content are you missing out on that you can't do a month-year later?

[Speyfer]

That's actually a nice topic of discussion, and to think about, but i'd answer no, the whole atmosphere would be different.
But a Warcraft 4 in a RPG style? Hell yeah!

[Azerothian Explorer]

Imagine that you log in to WoW and all team-making aspects are completely gone. You can only and exclusively do single player actions alone.

That means you can do levelling with questing and mage tower/single player raids/dungeons and you can do any kind of 1V1 PvP.

You can not raid/5man/group or do any kind of team-PvP but you can only publicly chat to set up 1V1/trading/public brawls.

I've been enjoying the classic and csta raid scenes.

I wouldn't mind seeing WoW end up as a single player game down the line at some stage of end of life.

[Lumicide]

WoW's basically not even in a salvageable state, insofar as its ability would be to hold its own as a SP game. Story is vastly too bad, and so poorly presented. Content in need of pruning just sits their wasting away as if the amount of time you spend within any expansion other than the present is enough to get a hint of its experience. Mechanics aren't generally fun enough on their own. Tanking and healing really only feel good in groups of humans, and DPS might be able to hold its own in Mage Tower type setting, but little else.

WoW's held up by its social element. I don't even mind repeating raids, even when I'm saved to them, to help my friends... (and, better yet, to murder them!)

[WowIsDead64]

Removing what limitation?

What multiplay FOMO is in the way of your content?

Your entire argument centered on a baseless 'grass is greener' fallacy, that any multiplayer devrlopment is 'costing you raid tier'.

Like Blizzard has even hired a completely new team to tackle things like Plunder Storm and Player Housing, which doesn't affect raid balance or questing or PVP development. Yet here you sre suggesting it is a threat to singleplayer, with zero evidence to back it up, just a gut feeling and a knee jerk reaction.

Like I said, why change multiplayer if your concern has nothing to do with multiplayer? Your arguments are completely and subjectively irrational. You do understand, everyone here has replied to you pointing out your irrationality, right? You just keep circling with more more subjective values and opinions that doesn't support why multiplayer jas anything to do with your want for better solo play.

What solo FOMO mechanics are you even complaining about? You can't even give a single example.

If you unsubbed TODAY, what solo content are you missing out on that you can't do a month-year later?

Like if I wouldn't have been explaining, why MP is limitation for whole thread. Again. MP content is intentionally designed such way, that playing with other players should be better, than playing solo. It includes intentionally ruining all SP activities due to "Why would player bother about playing MP, if SP would be better?". And again. That's not because devs are monsters. That's because players have to be funneled into MP content to keep it afloat. Because once activity drops - all kinds of problems start to happen, like queues, wait times, lower quality of groups. And players log into game not to wait and not to struggle then. If player has just one hour of play time, he doesn't want to waste 2/3 of it. Drop of activity is exponential process. It's like chain reaction. Once it has started - it's hard to stop it. Actually easy. Devs just need to add more rewards, like new mount for example. But it also causes "reward inflation" problem. That's, what we see now with all that Trading Post junk.

The biggest question: is it worth it? Lots of effort is pumped into keeping whole system afloat instead of just making fun game. For what? For experience, that isn't even enjoyable? That is toxic instead, cuz players get angry due to dealing with all those MP problems? Do we need illusion of MP, devs use in attempt to solve MP problems? Illusion of MP - is when players aren't distinguishable from bots. Social interaction is removed in attempt to make MP life easier. But then other players exist just for sake of existing, while majority of MP limitations are still there.

[Triceron]

Like if I wouldn't have been explaining, why MP is limitation for whole thread. Again. MP content is intentionally designed such way, that playing with other players should be better, than playing solo. It includes intentionally ruining all SP activities due to "Why would player bother about playing MP, if SP would be better?". And again. That's not because devs are monsters. That's because players have to be funneled into MP content to keep it afloat. Because once activity drops - all kinds of problems start to happen, like queues, wait times, lower quality of groups. And players log into game not to wait and not to struggle then. If player has just one hour of play time, he doesn't want to waste 2/3 of it. Drop of activity is exponential process. It's like chain reaction. Once it has started - it's hard to stop it. Actually easy. Devs just need to add more rewards, like new mount for example. But it also causes "reward inflation" problem. That's, what we see now with all that Trading Post junk.

The biggest question: is it worth it? Lots of effort is pumped into keeping whole system afloat instead of just making fun game. For what? For experience, that isn't even enjoyable? That is toxic instead, cuz players get angry due to dealing with all those MP problems? Do we need illusion of MP, devs use in attempt to solve MP problems? Illusion of MP - is when players aren't distinguishable from bots. Social interaction is removed in attempt to make MP life easier. But then other players exist just for sake of existing, while majority of MP limitations are still there.

If the game is not fun for large groups of players, why do they still play? None of them are having fun, everyone is an addict? I disagree with that assessment.

Like I said, it seems you want enough solo content to justify your monthly sub, while you handicap yourself from playing a majority of end game content by not participating. This is not the games fault.

Even if they did add more mounts, you'd find another reason to complain. The problem is grass is greener syndrome. Adding more mounts would still be contributing to FOMO, still be an artificial means of replay, still not 'fun'.

And speaking of Fun, what does that even mean to you? You aren't doing a majority of the content anyways. Nor are you playing classic.

You're clearly not satisfied by WoW, why not move on and return later? It's worked wonders for me, as someone who finishes content quickly. In the meantime, WC Rumble is what I play daily.

[Mysterymask]

If the game is not fun for large groups of players, why do they still play? None of them are having fun, everyone is an addict? I disagree with that assessment.

Like I said, it seems you want enough solo content to justify your monthly sub, while you handicap yourself from playing a majority of end game content by not participating. This is not the games fault.

Even if they did add more mounts, you'd find another reason to complain. The problem is grass is greener syndrome. Adding more mounts would still be contributing to FOMO, still be an artificial means of replay, still not 'fun'.

And speaking of Fun, what does that even mean to you? You aren't doing a majority of the content anyways. Nor are you playing classic.

You're clearly not satisfied by WoW, why not move on and return later? It's worked wonders for me, as someone who finishes content quickly. In the meantime, WC Rumble is what I play daily.

It's shit like this is why I try not to interact with him. I highly doubt he's actually doing half the shit he says he's doing and just throwing buzzwords and sticking to stories that get the most attention. Maybe it's because he needs attention or he's enough of a narcissist that he gets a sick pleasure posting crazy bullshit so half the thread becomes the "Let's make sense out of Wowisdead64" thread

Honestly after a while you realize he isn't saying anything at all

[AudibleEscalation]

You're clearly not satisfied by WoW, why not move on and return later? It's worked wonders for me, as someone who finishes content quickly. In the meantime, WC Rumble is what I play daily.

He's either someone who is severely addicted and mentally incapable of letting go or he just gets a kick out of writing down his brain flow and has way too much free time on his hands. Lot of the stuff he refers to is 10+ year old things, the rest seems to be some kind of fabrication of wowhead posts and his own imagination. Most of the time he doesn't know how modern WoW works or what players do online. He talks about Timewalking like it's the only feature in the game.

After a while, none of it means anything. It's a shame that almost every thread in this forum tends to end up in state where someone tries to argue with logic and he tosses his word salad text walls for pages and pages.

Either way, I don't think everything is "OK" with him, but there's really not much one can do, except try to ignore his posts and eject yourself from threads when you start seeing more than one word salad per page.

And speaking of Fun, what does that even mean to you?

According to him, earlier in this thread, the last time he had fun in the game was Tanaan Jungle. That was in 2015. I think it says a lot.

[Mysterymask]

He's either someone who is severely addicted and mentally incapable of letting go or he just gets a kick out of writing down his brain flow and has way too much free time on his hands. Lot of the stuff he refers to is 10+ year old things, the rest seems to be some kind of fabrication of wowhead posts and his own imagination. Most of the time he doesn't know how modern WoW works or what players do online. He talks about Timewalking like it's the only feature in the game.

After a while, none of it means anything. It's a shame that almost every thread in this forum tends to end up in state where someone tries to argue with logic and he tosses his word salad text walls for pages and pages.

Either way, I don't think everything is "OK" with him, but there's really not much one can do, except try to ignore his posts and eject yourself from threads when you start seeing more than one word salad per page.

Best way I deal with it is ignore function then like I have to click a button and ask myself "do I really want to reply to him" it mostly works but sometimes his "I speak for everyone" crap gets under my skin and well human gonna human

[AudibleEscalation]

Best way I deal with it is ignore function then like I have to click a button and ask myself "do I really want to reply to him" it mostly works but sometimes his "I speak for everyone" crap gets under my skin and well human gonna human

Yeah. Wish the ignore function actually hid posts and reply quotes.
I sometimes try to dig around in his brain for couple of rounds, purely out of layman's hobby interest in psychology, but it saps energy so most of the time I just scroll by.