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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Have you ever looked into the development history of D3 and why the planned second expansion 'King in the North' was cut and cancelled?

    Money. That's what it came down to. You can google it up. After the RMAH was a total bust and before Loot 2.0 was even implemented, the investors and execs lost faith in it being profitable and pulled their budget to focus on other projects. We know about this.

    https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Diabl...g_in_the_North


    Another issue was Diablo III's revenue model.[2] Reportedly, Blizzard was reluctant to commit to a second expansion because Diablo III lacks a steady revenue stream (aside from its Asian, free to play model), whereas most of its other games involve either a subscription fee (e.g. World of Warcraft) or microtransactions (e.g. Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm), therefore the game has low profitability compared to other Blizzard games in most regions (Asia being a notable exception).[3] This made it difficult for Blizzard to support a team of 100 people working on the game. John Hight begged Morhaime and Blizzard's other executives to wait until Reaper of Souls was shipped before making any final decision on the second expansion, but his requests were denied.[2]
    It's about efficiency. Any business is about efficiency. Nobody needs business, that gets paid for doing nothing. Yeah, it's so nice to charge sub fee for listening music instead of selling it. Cuz you can make one track and earn money forever. Yeah, people die and new ones are expected to buy everything from scratch. Well, not everything. That's why it doesn't always work. But at the end we want to pay for product. That's why it's bad, when companies try to turn their products into services to switch to sub fee model, when it isn't justified. It means, that they're ineffective. They have offices, they have to pay rent for, they have employees, they need to pay to, they have investors, who want their dividends, but they don't produce anything useful. They just exist. Hence it's called "existence tax".

    I know, that they expected RMAH to become their source of infinite "sub fee" and it failed. But their expectations were set way too high. They saw D2's item black market and wanted to control it. They could release D3 as purely SP game and switch to B2P model, but it just wouldn't have been so super-profitable, as sub fee. They just didn't want "small" money. They wanted big money. Blizzard are well known as ineffective company, that gets super-profits while barely releasing any new games. Do you think, it's good?
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2025-01-24 at 09:55 AM.
    FOMO, gating, RNG, grind, overtuning, competition - endgame.
    Solo MMO: no more humiliating queues and toxic competing.
    Aggro and combat: game would only be better without obsoleted mechanics.
    DF in a nutshell: GW2 copy-paste with AFK events and nothing to do.

  2. #402
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Again. Dunno why, but SP game devs are obsessed about making brand new games from scratch instead of making DLCs. That's, what makes SP game development ineffective. Example? Diablo 3. Only one DLC was released for it,
    Are you talking DLC or expansions? Those are not quite the same, here. When I heard 'DLC' I think of something extra but small for the game, such as Mortal Kombat's new fighters, but when I hear "expansions", I think of Reaper of Souls for D3, or WoW expansions.

    And what then? Pointless infinite seasons? Another problem - is devs, wanting so called "existence tax". It's about being jealous about making games, players buy once and then able to play forever.
    Wow, making up BS terms now? Can't use reality to back your arguments, now you're making shit up?

    They think it's unfair, that you play something, get fun, but don't pay for it.
    What do you mean? People do pay for it. They bought the game, after all. What you're describing there is called piracy.

    It's unreasonable to pay for something, if money aren't invested into creating new product.
    Wrong. That's not how it works. You're paying for a game that you get upon purchase, you're not making am investment for future games. If I go to the grocery store and buy a can of corn, it's because I have the intention of buying a can of corn, not because I want to invest in the canned corn industry to make more corn for me to pay in the future.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It's about efficiency. Any business is about efficiency. Nobody needs business, that gets paid for doing nothing. Yeah, it's so nice to charge sub fee for listening music instead of selling it. Cuz you can make one track and earn money forever. Yeah, people die and new ones are expected to buy everything from scratch. Well, not everything. That's why it doesn't always work. But at the end we want to pay for product. That's why it's bad, when companies try to turn their products into services to switch to sub fee model, when it isn't justified. It means, that they're ineffective. They have offices, they have to pay rent for, they have employees, they need to pay to, they have investors, who want their dividends, but they don't produce anything useful. They just exist. Hence it's called "existence tax".

    I know, that they expected RMAH to become their source of infinite "sub fee" and it failed. But their expectations were set way too high. They saw D2's item black market and wanted to control it. They could release D3 as purely SP game and switch to B2P model, but it just wouldn't have been so super-profitable, as sub fee. They just didn't want "small" money. They wanted big money. Blizzard are well known as ineffective company, that gets super-profits while barely releasing any new games. Do you think, it's good?
    If not for the system in place, you wouldn't have any WoW singleplayer content in the first place. The multiplayer-centric subscription model is why Warcraft still has a story mode. RTS had become non-viable for them, in fact for many companies since the genre isn't at the height of popularity it used to be. If not for multiplay-centric business model, the singleplayer story mode would be as gone as Warcraft Adventures, and current Warcraft existing as non-story centric, like we already see with hearthstone and WCRumble. Cuz even games like Overwatch are released without a Story mode at all.

    That has put players like me in a tough spot too. I don't actively play WoW anymore, yet I still come to places like this and WoWhead for news and updates because I am still interested in the story, and WoW is the only place to get it. I am otherwise a daily WCRumble player, a game that I only play since they put Heroes of the Storm maintenance mode with no new content updates. I am a lore enthusiast, and it sucks having to get it through novels, compendiums, online wikis. But that is the state of things.

    The best solution IMO is a separate singleplayer RPG. Not changing WoW, but a new game that runs parallel, much like how Diablo 4 and Immortal both run in the same universe. Or even different universes, if WSS ends up going multiversal. A Solo RPG tackling historic events in depth would be fine, IMO. Like fighting as or alongside Varian to uncover Onyxia's plot in an all new lore definitive adventure. Cover all of WoW's greatest moments and untold adventures (like that of the novels or comics) in a brand new game. No need to fuck with WoW or its current story and gameplay. But there are definitely issues in the way of having this greenlit within Blizzard, it's hard since even WC Adventures Lord of the Clans tried this and utterly failed. The game was practically complete too.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2025-01-24 at 01:22 PM.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The best solution IMO is a separate singleplayer RPG. Not changing WoW, but a new game that runs parallel, much like how Diablo 4 and Immortal both run in the same universe. Or even different universes, if WSS ends up going multiversal. A Solo RPG tackling historic events in depth would be fine, IMO. Like fighting as or alongside Varian to uncover Onyxia's plot in an all new lore definitive adventure. Cover all of WoW's greatest moments and untold adventures (like that of the novels or comics) in a brand new game. No need to fuck with WoW or its current story and gameplay. But there are definitely issues in the way of having this greenlit within Blizzard, it's hard since even WC Adventures Lord of the Clans tried this and utterly failed. The game was practically complete too.
    This is exact mistake, devs constantly make. Separate game would be too expensive to make -> not viable. Devs don't understand several concepts about DLCs. That price should be adequate for amount of content, they provide. I.e. that they shouldn't be way too greedy and therefore try to sell 20% of game for full price. And some even try to sell one skin for that money, yeah. That DLCs should have new content - not content, ripped from main game. This is unfair and players don't like it. DLCs should be optional. Player may like some of them, but nothing bad, if he doesn't like them all. And the most important thing - more DLCs = better. New player doesn't have to buy them all. But once he runs out of things to do, he goes to DLC list and sees 30 DLCs available. What he thinks about it? Man, this is lot more things to do! And he is very likely to buy them all at some point. Game becomes exponentially more profitable. Devs just shouldn't be lazy, greedy and impatient. DLCs will pay off with time.
    FOMO, gating, RNG, grind, overtuning, competition - endgame.
    Solo MMO: no more humiliating queues and toxic competing.
    Aggro and combat: game would only be better without obsoleted mechanics.
    DF in a nutshell: GW2 copy-paste with AFK events and nothing to do.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    This is exact mistake, devs constantly make. Separate game would be too expensive to make -> not viable. Devs don't understand several concepts about DLCs. That price should be adequate for amount of content, they provide. I.e. that they shouldn't be way too greedy and therefore try to sell 20% of game for full price. And some even try to sell one skin for that money, yeah. That DLCs should have new content - not content, ripped from main game. This is unfair and players don't like it. DLCs should be optional. Player may like some of them, but nothing bad, if he doesn't like them all. And the most important thing - more DLCs = better. New player doesn't have to buy them all. But once he runs out of things to do, he goes to DLC list and sees 30 DLCs available. What he thinks about it? Man, this is lot more things to do! And he is very likely to buy them all at some point. Game becomes exponentially more profitable. Devs just shouldn't be lazy, greedy and impatient. DLCs will pay off with time.
    Man its a mistake and people keep buying it so......

    I mean if you think a mistake is winning at capitalism then they should obviously make more mistakes
    3 Major Rules of World of Warcraft Players:
    1. No one on earth wants to play World of Warcraft less than other World of Warcraft players.
    2. The desire to win>The desire for anything else in World of Warcraft. NO EXCEPTIONS
    3. Efficiency will be king no matter how you think it will improve the game.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    price should be adequate for amount of content, they provide.
    Unfortunately we don't live in utopia.
    How much content was your $90 AH brutosaur?

  7. #407
    WoW has retained its popularity over the years because it doesn't force either multiplayer or solo play on its players. You can focus on the pure multiplayer modes if you choose, like Mythic+ or high end raiding, but you can also dip your toes into dungeons, pick up raids, casual PvP, etc. and still enjoy playing through the rest on your own. It's not one or the other, and trying to make it that way would be a great way to kill their subscription numbers.

    This has always been true for WoW, even in the vanilla days. In 2004, World of Warcraft was the solo-friendly game compared to Everquest and its sequel, Dark Age of Camelot and the rest of them. All of those games effectively forced you into groups in order to progress beyond the starter areas. WoW didn't do that, and it was a huge part of its success.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    This is exact mistake, devs constantly make. Separate game would be too expensive to make -> not viable. Devs don't understand several concepts about DLCs. That price should be adequate for amount of content, they provide. I.e. that they shouldn't be way too greedy and therefore try to sell 20% of game for full price. And some even try to sell one skin for that money, yeah. That DLCs should have new content - not content, ripped from main game. This is unfair and players don't like it. DLCs should be optional. Player may like some of them, but nothing bad, if he doesn't like them all. And the most important thing - more DLCs = better. New player doesn't have to buy them all. But once he runs out of things to do, he goes to DLC list and sees 30 DLCs available. What he thinks about it? Man, this is lot more things to do! And he is very likely to buy them all at some point. Game becomes exponentially more profitable. Devs just shouldn't be lazy, greedy and impatient. DLCs will pay off with time.
    You still run into the problem of a singleplayer RPG having finite content, leading you to wait months or years between content updates. What would be the difference to just treating WoW the same way?

    Like if each WoW expansion and major content patch for a singleplayer RPG, would you be complaining about not playing the singleplayer RPG every day? That the DLC takes time to be releaded?

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You still run into the problem of a singleplayer RPG having finite content, leading you to wait months or years between content updates. What would be the difference to just treating WoW the same way?

    Like if each WoW expansion and major content patch for a singleplayer RPG, would you be complaining about not playing the singleplayer RPG every day? That the DLC takes time to be releaded?
    Does Wow actually have lots of content? Remove all repeatable tasks and it's content would be completed within 2 hours. Why can't SP game have the same replayability mechanics? Daily quests, callings, etc.?
    FOMO, gating, RNG, grind, overtuning, competition - endgame.
    Solo MMO: no more humiliating queues and toxic competing.
    Aggro and combat: game would only be better without obsoleted mechanics.
    DF in a nutshell: GW2 copy-paste with AFK events and nothing to do.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Does Wow actually have lots of content? Remove all repeatable tasks and it's content would be completed within 2 hours. Why can't SP game have the same replayability mechanics? Daily quests, callings, etc.?
    That's Roguelikes like Hades and Binding of Issac those have daily quests and is made to be repeatable, you could argue the loot system from FFX where you had to grind the coliseum mobs for endgame loot but jesus christ I can bitch about FFX's post game cause literally its one of the most annoying thing in Square's history and I LOVE Final Fantasy X.
    There's also The Avengers, Gotham Knights and Suicide Squad which was mostly a singleplayer live service game with daily quests and repeatable content and you can see how well that did (hint they failed and failed hard DESPITE having giant IP's attached to them)
    3 Major Rules of World of Warcraft Players:
    1. No one on earth wants to play World of Warcraft less than other World of Warcraft players.
    2. The desire to win>The desire for anything else in World of Warcraft. NO EXCEPTIONS
    3. Efficiency will be king no matter how you think it will improve the game.

  11. #411
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Devs don't understand several concepts about DLCs. That price should be adequate for amount of content, they provide. I.e. that they shouldn't be way too greedy and therefore try to sell 20% of game for full price.
    This shows you have no idea what you're talking about. First, the developers know way more about DLC and its concepts than you. That's a fact. Second, the developers have literally near zero input on the price of the content they create. Which further exemplifies how little you know about this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Does Wow actually have lots of content? Remove all repeatable tasks and it's content would be completed within 2 hours.
    Hardly. Especially if you consider the content of all its expansions.

    Why can't SP game have the same replayability mechanics? Daily quests, callings, etc.?
    So... you complain about the grind, and now you're asking "but why couldn't single-players have grind too?"
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #412
    No, there are way better single player games but WoW has by far the current best raid and dungeon content FFXIV has good content but the combat cycle isn't as good.

  13. #413
    Field Marshal TheWizardFan88's Avatar
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    Hmm yes still. As long as I don't keep getting DC 24 7 that is. Kept on getting disconnected.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Does Wow actually have lots of content? Remove all repeatable tasks and it's content would be completed within 2 hours. Why can't SP game have the same replayability mechanics? Daily quests, callings, etc.?
    Let's put this in perspective then, what SP game has continuous content that isn't a repeatable task or some user generated task like grinding/farming? How long does SP DLC last in any given Singleplayer RPG? 2-3 hours?

    New expansions with story content? Another 5-10 hours?
    Once every 1-2 years?

    WoW offers comparable non repeated content at that pace. That's how I treat WoW, like a 10-hr singleplayer RPG every 2 years. You don't need a continuous sub to enjoy the singleplayer.

    That you choose to stay subbed and complain at the lack of solo non repeated content is your own damn problem. I can only suggest a better way to enjoy the solo content, I can't cure stupidity.

    There's no sense behind what you're actually asking for. You've come circle to demanding predatory FOMO-driven progression grinds be added to singleplayer.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2025-01-25 at 01:15 AM.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Let's put this in perspective then, what SP game has continuous content that isn't a repeatable task or some user generated task like grinding/farming? How long does SP DLC last in any given Singleplayer RPG? 2-3 hours?

    New expansions with story content? Another 5-10 hours?
    Once every 1-2 years?

    WoW offers comparable non repeated content at that pace. That's how I treat WoW, like a 10-hr singleplayer RPG every 2 years. You don't need a continuous sub to enjoy the singleplayer.

    That you choose to stay subbed and complain at the lack of solo non repeated content is your own damn problem. I can only suggest a better way to enjoy the solo content, I can't cure stupidity.

    There's no sense behind what you're actually asking for. You've come circle to demanding predatory FOMO-driven progression grinds be added to singleplayer.
    What I mean - is that Wow isn't replayable due to multiplayer. Wow is replayable, cuz one player needs ~14-16 items and raid boss drops just 4 random ones for 25 players once a week. Multiplayer - is more about psychological trick to make what player does meaningful. Cuz otherwise it would just be very bad game with extreme time/RNG-gating. Can SP game use exactly the same replayability mechanics? Sure. Daily quest, weekly quests, random events. Again. There are SP games, that have potentially infinite replayability. Terraria for example. They're limited by getting tired of playing the same game only. But this can be fixed via new content. Playing exactly the same game, but in new environment. One new planet. In new time. In present. In future. Players' psychology is tricked very easily. It's easy to make players think, that some sort of saronite is super cool and different from copper, they had in Vanilla, while technically they're the same. Some games have infinite potential. It's devs lacking imagination, who don't fully use it. Wow is one of such games.
    FOMO, gating, RNG, grind, overtuning, competition - endgame.
    Solo MMO: no more humiliating queues and toxic competing.
    Aggro and combat: game would only be better without obsoleted mechanics.
    DF in a nutshell: GW2 copy-paste with AFK events and nothing to do.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    What I mean - is that Wow isn't replayable due to multiplayer. Wow is replayable, cuz one player needs ~14-16 items and raid boss drops just 4 random ones for 25 players once a week. Multiplayer - is more about psychological trick to make what player does meaningful. Cuz otherwise it would just be very bad game with extreme time/RNG-gating. Can SP game use exactly the same replayability mechanics? Sure. Daily quest, weekly quests, random events. Again. There are SP games, that have potentially infinite replayability. Terraria for example. They're limited by getting tired of playing the same game only. But this can be fixed via new content. Playing exactly the same game, but in new environment. One new planet. In new time. In present. In future. Players' psychology is tricked very easily. It's easy to make players think, that some sort of saronite is super cool and different from copper, they had in Vanilla, while technically they're the same. Some games have infinite potential. It's devs lacking imagination, who don't fully use it. Wow is one of such games.
    WoW is replayable even regardless of multiplayer. There are repeatable quests and dailies, there are things to collect, old raids to solo for mounts and tmogs, you can craft and farm professions, play the AH, go exploring or just have fun flying.

    You can already do all of that now, and it isn't any different than if you were to do the same in terrarria. You are still generating your own content by just doing stuff in the world and making your own goals.

    Why are you saying SP game could use dailies? WoW already has the very thing you are asking for. Dailies are not restricted to multiplayer.


    Some games have infinite potential. It's devs lacking imagination, who don't fully use it. Wow is one of such games.
    All hypothetical potential is limitless. It is also not bound by constraints of reality. It's pure fantasy.

    Like we could say why not give players the choice to leave factions and join the villains? These kind of ideas are not impossible. They are all potential. But they also ignore the design of the game that Blizzard set out to create, and are extremely unlikely to happen. To address this example, WoW is not built to be an emergent RPG that writes a story around every action and choice your character makes. It never was intended to be that. To address your argument, WoW isn't set out to be a SP RPG with infinite gameplay. I'll go out in a limb to even day multiplay is not infinite, it is mostly capped by rewards and progression. It all stops after you max your gear. The only things I'd consider infinite are things you do for yourself without game-driven purpose, things you do for fun rather than for any reward. Things like exploration, farming, grinding mobs, or PvP. Things you'd do for the sake of doing it.

    That's why your suggestions are absurd. You've removed yourself from reality to create some idealized version of a Singleplayer WoW that only exists in your head. You can bitch and cry about why devs are lazy all you want, it doesn't make you any less clueless about the things you talk about.

    It's like asking why there isn't a Harry Potter vs Godzilla movie, and hyper focusing on how successful it'd be abd how stupid film makers are for not doing it. And yeah, as cool as the idea is, there's nothing realistic about it ever happening, outside of parody or twisted fanfic.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2025-01-25 at 10:00 AM.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    WoW is replayable even regardless of multiplayer. There are repeatable quests and dailies, there are things to collect, old raids to solo for mounts and tmogs, you can craft and farm professions, play the AH, go exploring or just have fun flying.

    You can already do all of that now, and it isn't any different than if you were to do the same in terrarria. You are still generating your own content by just doing stuff in the world and making your own goals.

    Why are you saying SP game could use dailies? WoW already has the very thing you are asking for. Dailies are not restricted to multiplayer.
    No. You can't generate your own content in Wow. Wow isn't designed to be solo-friendly. Solo-friendly content in Wow is byproduct of certain MP mechanics, like having new level cap in new xpack to make all old rewards obsoleted. Dunno, how to say it better. Yeah, you can play it as content, but it's not created intentionally by devs and therefore isn't guaranteed to exist. It appears accidentally. You have to be very lucky to get good solo-friendly content, cuz it usually appears due to some MP design "mistakes", like flying, LFD/LFR, Garrisons, etc., devs constantly regret and can remove at any moment. Example? ZM. It was playable due to pure luck. One small change and whole SL would be unplayable, as it was back in MOP times.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2025-01-25 at 03:33 PM.
    FOMO, gating, RNG, grind, overtuning, competition - endgame.
    Solo MMO: no more humiliating queues and toxic competing.
    Aggro and combat: game would only be better without obsoleted mechanics.
    DF in a nutshell: GW2 copy-paste with AFK events and nothing to do.

  18. #418
    This thread is rapidly turning into the playing a Pidgeon in chess metaphor....
    3 Major Rules of World of Warcraft Players:
    1. No one on earth wants to play World of Warcraft less than other World of Warcraft players.
    2. The desire to win>The desire for anything else in World of Warcraft. NO EXCEPTIONS
    3. Efficiency will be king no matter how you think it will improve the game.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    No. You can't generate your own content in Wow.
    Things like roleplaying, having an in game wedding, or organized events like world PVP 'let's go burn down Tarren Mill today', or the infamous lvl 1 Hogger Raid events are all user generated content. It means anything that users come up with or create to entertain themselves, which includes organized events like these. It applies to solo play too, since you could be RPing your character to kill goblins in booty bay as an act of vengeance for killing your parents, all for the sake of accruing bloodsail reputation. That fictional motivation helped me stay sane grinding my Bloodsail Admiral hat.

    Wow isn't designed to be solo-friendly.
    WoW has many aspects which are solo friendly, many which aren't. It is all shades of grey.

    Pet Battles, professions like Archaeology, and most Questing is designed for solo, for example. Some of these can't even be done in groups, like flying challenges.

    Solo-friendly content in Wow is byproduct of certain MP mechanics, like having new level cap in new xpack to make all old rewards obsoleted. Dunno, how to say it better. Yeah, you can play it as content, but it's not created intentionally by devs and therefore isn't guaranteed to exist. It appears accidentally. You have to be very lucky to get good solo-friendly content, cuz it usually appears due to some MP design "mistakes", like flying, LFD/LFR, Garrisons, etc., devs constantly regret and can remove at any moment. Example? ZM. It was playable due to pure luck. One small change and whole SL would be unplayable, as it was back in MOP times.
    Solo is definitely a byproduct, if that is all you choose to do. That is why a majority of casual solo players do the sensible thing and only subbed when they feel it's worth playing. Most players don't treat WoW like an abusive relationship they can't leave, while fantasizing that it will miraculously change to meet their personal needs.

    What you:re describing is more a case of Stockholm syndrome than 'good and bad design'.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2025-01-25 at 05:35 PM.

  20. #420
    While I play mostly solo, I would not play it as a Single Player game. I would expect more from it as a single player game.

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