Would you still play WoW if it was totally single-player?

[WowIsDead64]

Things like roleplaying, having an in game wedding, or organized events like world PVP 'let's go burn down Tarren Mill today', or the infamous lvl 1 Hogger Raid events are all user generated content. It means anything that users come up with or create to entertain themselves, which includes organized events like these. It applies to solo play too, since you could be RPing your character to kill goblins in booty bay as an act of vengeance for killing your parents, all for the sake of accruing bloodsail reputation. That fictional motivation helped me stay sane grinding my Bloodsail Admiral hat.

What you describe - is playing on RP servers. It's a little bit different thing. You can RP weddings in any game. Even in Tetris. I'm RPish, otherwise I wouldn't like RPGs, but not to such degree. But what you're right about - is that if game doesn't support your playstyle, then only option that is left for you - to entertain yourself. That's, what I've been doing in Wow for all those years. Problem is - in order for it to work, devs shouldn't be against your playstyle. Game should be some kind of fuel for your playstyle. Not opposite. They shouldn't prevent you from playing how you like. They shouldn't intentionally push you out of game. Unfortunately, that's what Blizzard do. It was ok to "kill goblins in booty bay as an act of vengeance for killing your parents", but only when they were soloable. But Blizzard decided to make goblins elite and rare-elite, so they could only be killed in groups.

[Triceron]

What you describe - is playing on RP servers. It's a little bit different thing. You can RP weddings in any game. Even in Tetris

Yes. The point is you can make your own fun, define what it means to you. Roleplay is one example, but not the only. Speedrunning is another example, like trying to rush through a dungeon or level up 1-60 in X hours.

You can do it in any game, but does that matter? Collecting points and top score matters in many games, not just Donkey Kong, right? The point is the act of doing this can be fun for the player. It is part of the sandbox experience, and WoW offers many avenues for players to make their own fun.

. I'm RPish, otherwise I wouldn't like RPGs, but not to such degree. But what you're right about - is that if game doesn't support your playstyle, then only option that is left for you - to entertain yourself. That's, what I've been doing in Wow for all those years. Problem is - in order for it to work, devs shouldn't be against your playstyle. Game should be some kind of fuel for your playstyle. Not opposite. They shouldn't prevent you from playing how you like. They shouldn't intentionally push you out of game. Unfortunately, that's what Blizzard do. It was ok to "kill goblins in booty bay as an act of vengeance for killing your parents", but only when they were soloable. But Blizzard decided to make goblins elite and rare-elite, so they could only be killed in groups.

Yes and no.

Some people get their kicks out of trolling, harassment, griefing, botting and all sorts of unsavory, frowned upon activities. Devs should not design the game around everyone's playstyle. It should be open enough to accommodate a wide variety, but that's the extent.

Catering to everyone makes the game fun for no one.

[WowIsDead64]

Yes. The point is you can make your own fun, define what it means to you. Roleplay is one example, but not the only. Speedrunning is another example, like trying to rush through a dungeon or level up 1-60 in X hours.

You can do it in any game, but does that matter? Collecting points and top score matters in many games, not just Donkey Kong, right? The point is the act of doing this can be fun for the player. It is part of the sandbox experience, and WoW offers many avenues for players to make their own fun.

Yes and no.

Some people get their kicks out of trolling, harassment, griefing, botting and all sorts of unsavory, frowned upon activities. Devs should not design the game around everyone's playstyle. It should be open enough to accommodate a wide variety, but that's the extent.

Catering to everyone makes the game fun for no one.

Bingo! It sounds like you've tried to put solo playing in one line with such things, like trolling, harassment, griefing, botting and all sorts of unsavory, frowned upon activities, that would be obvious strawman argument. But you also mentioned speedrunning. Guess what? Playing solo is like speedrunning. Whole idea is to stay self-sufficient. You might argue, that speedrunning is for geeks, i.e. for minority, and that game doesn't have to support it. Yeah. There are speedrunning communities, where players speedrun everything, no matter what game they play and if it supports speedrunning or not. Ordinal players may not be hardcore speedrunners. But guess what? Playing solo can be compared to speedrunning, yeah. But playing solo is more "normal", than even multiplayer, because there are more solo games, than multiplayer ones. You can't say, that playing solo is for geeks. You can't say, that playing solo is for minority.

And then just imagine, that game not only doesn't support certain playstyle. It has mechanics, that prevent it. I.e. anti-mechanics. For example time-gating to prevent speedrunning. How would you play such game, if you would be speedrunner? You wouldn't. Yeah, Wow is great example of anti-game, that is full of anti-mechanics. But at the same time devs provide explicit speedrunning content in order not to alienate speedrunning community. Yeah, M+. What we ask for - is just to support SP as legitimate way of playing this game. We don't even ask to design game for solo players. What we ask for - to remove anti-mechanics, that prevent us from playing this game.

Simply because hating certain playstyle is unreasonable. For now it's purely about "It's MMO and therefore it has to be anti-solo".

[lookitsgordo]

Hell no. This game is mainly good BECAUSE of the multiplayer aspect.

[saixilein]

I did this back in tbc/wotlk era, where i had my own server and its got pretty boring after ~ 25 levels.

So big no.

[Triceron]

But you also mentioned speedrunning. Guess what? Playing solo is like speedrunning.
----
Playing solo can be compared to speedrunning, yeah. But playing solo is more "normal", than even multiplayer, because there are more solo games, than multiplayer ones. You can't say, that playing solo is for geeks. You can't say, that playing solo is for minority.

Players who play WoW for its solo content, who do not do any multiplay at all are numerous indeed. And the majority of this subgroup unsubs when content is low. The players that stays and bitches about outpacing the content are absolutely in a minority, At least speedrunners enjoy what they're doing and will also unsub when content runs dry, they aren't hate-playing the game out of some sort of addiction to speedrunning.

Hateplaying is what I'm trying to present to you as an unsavory playstyle Begrudgingly playing a game, being unable to self regulate ( pacing or taking a break ) and irrationally hating the 'lack of content' and blaming others (lazy Devs, Multiplayer crowd) for their own inadequacies. It isn't much different from the mentality of botting or griefing, since all of these behaviours stem from boredom of the game while still engaging in it. Botters choose to circumvent time investment and effort to obtain in game 'rewards', while griefers merely look for the easiest way to get a quick kill. None of these players care about how their actions affect others, with hateplayers being an active nuisance socially outside the game, like complaining to friends or anonymously online, often petitioning for changes that suit their needs

Little different than the people who hatewatch movie or tv series and bitch about it online. It's become somewhat popularized, but is still poor behaviour. It is still a playstyle.

And then just imagine, that game not only doesn't support certain playstyle. It has mechanics, that prevent it. I.e. anti-mechanics. For example time-gating to prevent speedrunning. How would you play such game, if you would be speedrunner? You wouldn't.

You hit the nail in the head. People should do things out of the enjoyment of it, or for the purpose of reaching a noble accomplishment or self driven goal. Like grinding sucks, but it is purposeful to achieve progression for your character. That feeling of progression is satisfying once all the effort is put in.

If it is not worth doing and the progression and goal is no longer satisfying, then that's the time to move on.

Yeah, Wow is great example of anti-game, that is full of anti-mechanics. But at the same time devs provide explicit speedrunning content in order not to alienate speedrunning community. Yeah, M+. What we ask for - is just to support SP as legitimate way of playing this game. We don't even ask to design game for solo players. What we ask for - to remove anti-mechanics, that prevent us from playing this game.

Simply because hating certain playstyle is unreasonable. For now it's purely about "It's MMO and therefore it has to be anti-solo".

No, I see this as an excuse for hateplaying.

Again, you're taking to someone who plays WoW Solo on an irregular basis, and who still enjoys the content that is available. You can't bullshit me on the time gating being a problem when it is something ALL games are faced with at some point in time. Like waiting for ANY DLC sucks, but content consumption outpacing the content is not a developer mistake, it is a normal expectation. What we do in reaction is all our own behaviour.

Blaming the devs and community for outpacing niche content, while refusing to engage in any other activity that the game provides, is all player driven choice. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head to stay subbed or do content they don't want to do.

And Anti Game mechanic is nothing but bullshit. It doesn't mean anything.

There are always things we don't like to do in order to get things done. Players are conditioned to meet a set of challenges in exchange for a reward or character progression. Questing is fun when you get a reward, not so much fun in doing the actual challenge. From one perspective, challenge can be seen as the thing getting in the way of instant gratification. Ie- why do I have to do think or use strategy to gamble when I can just pull a lever instead? Abd I ask you, what is the difference in a challenge I do not find not enjoyable and an Anti-game mechanic?

So is travelling on foot anti-game? Is having to kill trash mobs that spawn in your path anti-game? Is having to talk to NPCs anti game? 'Anti-gaming mechanics' is nothing more than a buzzword you created to categorize anything that you deem unrewarding. I'm illustrating how I can easily apply it to any game mechanic that could be potentially bothersome to any player. There is no universally understood definition behind this term, you are using it in a generalized way to encapsulate 'things you don't like'.

There's no point to this since what you dislike is only relevant to you. You're trying to project your dislikes as objective problems by calling it 'anti gaming mechanics'.

That being said, I recognize there are many legitimate flaws with WoW's design. am not defending WoW's flaws. I am calling out the use of a non existent buzzword to encapsulate 'all things you personally think is bad', which muddles the discussion into rants about unspecific problems, some which may not be problems at all.

[WowIsDead64]

Players who play WoW for its solo content, who do not do any multiplay at all are numerous indeed. And the majority of this subgroup unsubs when content is low. The players that stays and bitches about outpacing the content are absolutely in a minority, At least speedrunners enjoy what they're doing and will also unsub when content runs dry, they aren't hate-playing the game out of some sort of addiction to speedrunning.

Hateplaying is what I'm trying to present to you as an unsavory playstyle Begrudgingly playing a game, being unable to self regulate ( pacing or taking a break ) and irrationally hating the 'lack of content' and blaming others (lazy Devs, Multiplayer crowd) for their own inadequacies. It isn't much different from the mentality of botting or griefing, since all of these behaviours stem from boredom of the game while still engaging in it. Botters choose to circumvent time investment and effort to obtain in game 'rewards', while griefers merely look for the easiest way to get a quick kill. None of these players care about how their actions affect others, with hateplayers being an active nuisance socially outside the game, like complaining to friends or anonymously online, often petitioning for changes that suit their needs

Little different than the people who hatewatch movie or tv series and bitch about it online. It's become somewhat popularized, but is still poor behaviour. It is still a playstyle.

Again. You use some sort of strawman argument, that is based on assumptions and beliefs and isn't baked up by anything. And some other guys in this thread constantly blame me for ignoring this argument. This logic: SP content is bad and can't retain players => SP players become bored and unsub quickly => If they don't unsub, they start hating game and become source of all game's problems (e.g. toxicity, griefing, botting, etc.). It's wrong. There are much more problems with MP players, constantly unsubbing due to stupid reasons, such as "I feel lonely in this game", than with SP players like me, for whom it might be enough to have ZM treasure grind to be busy for 2 years. I don't even talk about bots. Nobody uses them due to boredom. They're used by professionals, for whom selling gold - is IRL business.

Abd I ask you, what is the difference in a challenge I do not find not enjoyable and an Anti-game mechanic?

Anti-mechanics aren't about challenge only. They're implemented to counter certain playstyles. Example? Non-skippable dialogs/cut-scenes, that prevent players from skipping story. Or, again, time-gating to prevent players from speedrunning. But challenge can be used as excuse, when implementing them. Or as actual mechanic to prevent casual playstyles. In case of Wow challenge is used to force grouping with other players. Because at some point challenging content turns into unplayable one. And therefore it's anti-mechanic for SP players.

[Triceron]

Again. You use some sort of strawman argument, that is based on assumptions and beliefs and isn't baked up by anything. And some other guys in this thread constantly blame me for ignoring this argument. This logic: SP content is bad and can't retain players => SP players become bored and unsub quickly => If they don't unsub, they start hating game and become source of all game's problems (e.g. toxicity, griefing, botting, etc.). It's wrong. There are much more problems with MP players, constantly unsubbing due to stupid reasons, such as "I feel lonely in this game", than with SP players like me, for whom it might be enough to have ZM treasure grind to be busy for 2 years. I don't even talk about bots. Nobody uses them due to boredom. They're used by professionals, for whom selling gold - is IRL business.

Anti-mechanics aren't about challenge only. They're implemented to counter certain playstyles. Example? Non-skippable dialogs/cut-scenes, that prevent players from skipping story. Or, again, time-gating to prevent players from speedrunning. But challenge can be used as excuse, when implementing them. Or as actual mechanic to prevent casual playstyles. In case of Wow challenge is used to force grouping with other players. Because at some point challenging content turns into unplayable one. And therefore it's anti-mechanic for SP players.

And that is perspective, because the game NEVER advertised itself as intending to be played SP from beginning to end. Multiplayer is the standard for end game, always. You can't solo speedrun a new raid on release, that is by intention if design, it is not anti-speedrun mechanic. The parameters of speedrunning simply wouldn't be applied to Raids, until they are soloable. Or, there could be a group-based speedrunning challenge, like Blizzcon has had in the past with top guilds competing against each others progress.

People can choose to RP in any game they please. This does not mean Tetris should be designed to accommodate roleplaying. Having no dialogue options is not an anti roleplay mechanic. Not being able to customize your tetris piece is not an anti roleplay mechanic. The game simply isn't designed for the intent of roleplaying. Roleplaying in Tetris would be user generated.

Again, you're just using this buzzword you made up to excuse your own poor behaviour.

No speed runner ever calls a time gate an anti-mechanic. If you are familiar with speed running, even unskippable cutscenes are PART of the run. It isn't unfair if everyone expects it as part of the time it takes to accomplish the run. It may be a nuisance, but that's all it is. Speed Running adapts its tines to whatever game is being challenged. If the fastest run for an RPG with 2hrs of unskippable dialogue is 2hrs 15 minutes, then that is the bar to hit, for everyone equally. And if it's not a fun game to speed run, then people move on. They recognize its value, and react accordingly, not force their playstyle on changing the game to suit their needs. They don't dwell on having the devs change their RPG to be more speedrun viable. No speed runner does that.

They adapt to what is there, not advocate to change the gane to suit their style. If the devs remove an exploit, the speedrunning community has to adapt. That is how it works

content is bad and can't retain players => SP players become bored and unsub quickly => If they don't unsub, they start hating game and become source of all game's problems

The logic is specific to YOUR argument. No one else here is mirroring any of your sentiments on mp being the source of SP problems. There is no 'SP players like me' demographic here, you can't point to a single person in this thread, who is sharing your complaint against MP. You are merely talking about yourself in plural, to artificially sound like you're representing a group. Yet such a group does not exist. There are SP players who may be disappointed by WoW, but none of them. are 'like you'..

No one else here is hateplaying Singleplayer 'like you'. And you don't speak out on anyone's behalf or represent any group if hateplaying singleplayer is your personal hangup. Who are you fooling here? Me or yourself?

I'm putting your specific argument in the same behaviorial category as botters and griefers, because the root cause of your issue is burnout/boredom and irresponsibly blaming others for one's own lack of self control. Same as a botter or griefer trying to say the game should be accommodating for players like them, while being unable to recognize that their own actions are the root of the problem. To you, it sounds like victim blaming, but burning yourself out on content is your own responsibility. I've done so myself in the past, and I was fortunate to recognize I had no one else to blame but myself, and take steps to improve my mental state. Blizzard isn't forcing any solo player to stay subbed. If they are lacking content, then it is what it is. Complaining that devs are lazy or other players are to blame for lack of content is just scapegoating your own problems.

[WowIsDead64]

And that is perspective, because the game NEVER advertised itself as intending to be played SP from beginning to end. Multiplayer is the standard for end game, always. You can't solo speedrun a new raid on release, that is by intention if design, it is not anti-speedrun mechanic. The parameters of speedrunning simply wouldn't be applied to Raids, until they are soloable. Or, there could be a group-based speedrunning challenge, like Blizzcon has had in the past with top guilds competing against each others progress.

People can choose to RP in any game they please. This does not mean Tetris should be designed to accommodate roleplaying. Having no dialogue options is not an anti roleplay mechanic. Not being able to customize your tetris piece is not an anti roleplay mechanic. The game simply isn't designed for the intent of roleplaying. Roleplaying in Tetris would be user generated.

Again, you're just using this buzzword you made up to excuse your own poor behaviour.

No speed runner ever calls a time gate an anti-mechanic. If you are familiar with speed running, even unskippable cutscenes are PART of the run. It isn't unfair if everyone expects it as part of the time it takes to accomplish the run. It may be a nuisance, but that's all it is. Speed Running adapts its tines to whatever game is being challenged. If the fastest run for an RPG with 2hrs of unskippable dialogue is 2hrs 15 minutes, then that is the bar to hit, for everyone equally. And if it's not a fun game to speed run, then people move on. They recognize its value, and react accordingly, not force their playstyle on changing the game to suit their needs. They don't dwell on having the devs change their RPG to be more speedrun viable. No speed runner does that.

They adapt to what is there, not advocate to change the gane to suit their style. If the devs remove an exploit, the speedrunning community has to adapt. That is how it works

Yeah, hardcore speedrunners can speedrun anything. Even Diablo 2, that is RNG-based game. There are other players, who can play game some "wrong" way and it's ok for them. They can solo current raids via using starvation tactics. They can play some sort of self-sufficient mode in Vanilla. I'm not hardcore. I can't play game, if it isn't designed for my playstyle. I can't play game, if it designed against my playstyle.

I don't say, that challenge is anti-mechanic. But it can be used as anti-mechanic. Blizzard use it as anti-mechanic for SP players to push them out of game.

The logic is specific to YOUR argument. No one else here is mirroring any of your sentiments on mp being the source of SP problems. There is no 'SP players like me' demographic here, you can't point to a single person in this thread, who is sharing your complaint against MP. You are merely talking about yourself in plural, to artificially sound like you're representing a group. Yet such a group does not exist. There are SP players who may be disappointed by WoW, but none of them. are 'like you'..

No one else here is hateplaying Singleplayer 'like you'. And you don't speak out on anyone's behalf or represent any group if hateplaying singleplayer is your personal hangup. Who are you fooling here? Me or yourself?

I'm putting your specific argument in the same behaviorial category as botters and griefers, because the root cause of your issue is burnout/boredom and irresponsibly blaming others for one's own lack of self control. Same as a botter or griefer trying to say the game should be accommodating for players like them, while being unable to recognize that their own actions are the root of the problem. To you, it sounds like victim blaming, but burning yourself out on content is your own responsibility. I've done so myself in the past, and I was fortunate to recognize I had no one else to blame but myself, and take steps to improve my mental state. Blizzard isn't forcing any solo player to stay subbed. If they are lacking content, then it is what it is. Complaining that devs are lazy or other players are to blame for lack of content is just scapegoating your own problems.

There are SP players in Wow. You can even see many of them in this thread. Stop pretending, that they don't exist. There are here. Right here. You just ignore them. Playing game, that isn't designed for you is about amount of anti-mechanics, you can tolerate. It was ok for me to play Wow, when outdoor was about dailies, that were soloable and only exceeding competition was problem, I had workaround for - not to play current content. Current design isn't tolerable. There can be players, for whom it's still ok. But we talk about tendency. Making changes like this - is about shrinking SP community in Wow. And goal is obviously - to eliminate it completely. What is reason for it, other than devs hating SP players for some reason?

Again. It's not burnout/boredom problem. Burnout and boredom are caused by lack of new content. Again. I just don't want to do WOD Garrison or Legion Class Hall for 100500th time in a row, yeah. Problem is completely different. Game wasn't designed for me right from start, yeah. But it has taken lots of time for me to realize, what is actually wrong with it. Now I tell directly, what is wrong with it instead of telling things like "no flying is bad", "exceeding challenge is bad", "exceeding competition is bad", etc. It's like coming out. I just didn't think about it back in old days, when I started playing Wow. May be I was younger and tolerated more things. But older you get - wiser you become.

Perception of game might change. You should understand, that game is felt differently, when you're noob. You just don't feel all problems. You start feeling them, as you become more experienced. I try to remember, why I don't remember all that terrible Vanilla's leveling. I guess, it's due to several reasons. I came from private server, where situation with game mechanics was even worse. Nothing worked. Talents didn't work. Abilities didn't work. Of course playing game, where everything worked was much more enjoyable. Plus my first character was Draenei. Therefore I started playing in TBC starting location, that had better quality. Plus my 70lvl friend helped me to level. He carried me in 5ppls, so I got some blues, that helped me to outgear things. First xpack, I started playing as experienced player - was Cata.

Major idea, you constantly miss. Yeah, genre doesn't suit me. And never has. But game was different back in old times. I don't remember overcrowding on WotLK and Cata releases, despite of playing those xpacks on release (release day, not later!). I don't remember overcrowding during MOP leveling. First time, when I encountered overcrowding in my life - was Molten Front. First time, when it became problem - was MOP dailies. What do I want to say? I want to say, that game has CHANGED! It wasn't so solo-unfriendly back in old days. It has CHANGED to more solo-unfriendly. And it was intentional change. If it would have been bad for me initially - I WOULD HAVE NEVER EVEN STARTED PLAYING IT. That's why I talk about anti-mechanics. I talk about them, cuz they have been implemented intentionally.

And I just don't understand this change. Because Wow was so successful vs that time's MMOs exactly because it was more casual and solo-friendly. Changing it - is about turning Wow into "just another MMO", like GW2 or Wildstar. One of them is dead and other is barely alive. That's, what Blizzard want? Just another niche project with niche auditory instead of cultural phenomenon, Wow was back in old days? They have Vanilla Classic for players, who don't tolerate changes. Haven't Blizzard realized, that what Vanilla players actually wanted - was their nostalgia? I.e. that Retail would have never suited them, no matter what Vanilla mechanics would have been put into it. They wanted Vanilla. I understand them. Due to some reasons only version of Civilization I like - is Civ 1, despite of newer versions being obviously better. It's about getting used to some version of game, I guess. So, why keep trying to change Retail into something more and more hardcore? Why can't we just let casual Retail be?

Game WAS successful despite of it being less "MMOish" back in old days. Game wasn't overcrowded back then and nobody cried about feeling lonely. So, what? May be Blizzard are actually in dead loop of try to cater to MP players to solve declining playerbase problem, while only making things even worse?

[Triceron]

I can't play game, if it isn't designed for my playstyle. I can't play game, if it designed against my playstyle.

Then why are you playing WoW? It literally is not designed for your play style. Yet you are still playing it. Don't bullshit me you can't when you're actively subbed and playing it.


I don't say, that challenge is anti-mechanic. But it can be used as anti-mechanic. Blizzard use it as anti-mechanic for SP players to push them out of game.

There are SP players in Wow.

Yes, and you are talking to one.

I have told you time and time again I am also a primarily solo casual player. I didn't used to be, but that is what i am now. I can't ignore solo players if I am ine of them.

I want to say, that game has CHANGED! It wasn't so solo-unfriendly back in old days. It has CHANGED to more solo-unfriendly. And it was intentional change. If it would have been bad for me initially - I WOULD HAVE NEVER EVEN STARTED PLAYING IT.

They have Vanilla Classic for players, who don't tolerate changes

You just described yourself here. Classic was made for you. Do you disagree?

Why can't we just let casual Retail be?

Why can't you just let casual Retail be? What you are asking for is Classic Plus (Classic design with fresh new content) more than a reasonable change for Retail.

I see it like the Sonic community. You have many different Sonic game genres that have accrued a large shared fanbase, but fans want different games. I am a classic 2D Sonic fan, I prefer games like Sonic CD and Sonic Mania. But I still tolerate 3D games being made for other fans, I don't petition changing Sonic Frontier into a 2D classic. That's the difference. I can let 3D Sonic be what it is.

You can let retail be retail. You just haven"t learned to let go.

[WowIsDead64]

Then why are you playing WoW? It literally is not designed for your play style. Yet you are still playing it. Don't bullshit me you can't when you're actively subbed and playing it.

You just described yourself here. Classic was made for you. Do you disagree?

If only permanent WOD/Legion Classic servers would exist.

[Triceron]

If only permanent WOD/Legion Classic servers would exist.

To be honest? I'd probably support your argument if you took it to the Classic forums abd petitioned for new content. But because we are discussing retail, I think you've missed the entire point of Blizzard's intent for retail design, and how it literally isn't for you.

[Gestopft]

Ask me a dozen years ago, and I probably say no, but given all of the time I've invested in to these characters, the world, and the lore? Probably yes?

That said, I think one of the things that WoW has over other games IS the group element, in particular the role of a dedicate healer, which I find so enjoyable.

[WowIsDead64]

To be honest? I'd probably support your argument if you took it to the Classic forums abd petitioned for new content. But because we are discussing retail, I think you've missed the entire point of Blizzard's intent for retail design, and how it literally isn't for you.

Game design isn't only factor. There are also QOL and loss of progress. That's why I talk about WOD and Legion only. Cata and MOP are bad xpacks, but everything before that is way too obsoleted. That's why I think, that Classic isn't right approach here. Some sort of xpack-wide Timewalking would be much better. Pros - no loss of modern QOL features and progress, while having access to old good content.

What is Blizzard's intent for retail design? To turn in into just another generic MMO, like GW2?

[MrLachyG]

If only permanent WOD/Legion Classic servers would exist.

and pray tell what in WoD and Legion are more single player than there is currently? dailies and world quests? that's about it. In TWW you have at least 5-6 activities that you can do solo on top of world quests

[Mysterymask]

and pray tell what in WoD and Legion are more single player than there is currently? dailies and world quests? that's about it. In TWW you have at least 5-6 activities that you can do solo on top of world quests

Have you not kept up on the wowisdead64 lore?

The dude thinks the mission tables is the peak of World of Warcraft gameplay...

[Triceron]

Game design isn't only factor. There are also QOL and loss of progress. That's why I talk about WOD and Legion only. Cata and MOP are bad xpacks, but everything before that is way too obsoleted. That's why I think, that Classic isn't right approach here. Some sort of xpack-wide Timewalking would be much better. Pros - no loss of modern QOL features and progress, while having access to old good content.

What is Blizzard's intent for retail design? To turn in into just another generic MMO, like GW2?

But that's again your opinion.

WoD and Legion had terrible solo in some cases too.

Legion was lucky to have lots of content, that's its only pro. Otherwise it was filled to the brim with FOMO. You can't even use artifacts today, the entire progression system is gone. WoD was terrible with Garrisons replacing world content.

At least MoP had Timeless Isle

[AcidicSyn]

If anything this'd make me resub, at least until I crunch through the story.

[Mysterymask]

But that's again your opinion.

WoD and Legion had terrible solo in some cases too.

Legion was lucky to have lots of content, that's its only pro. Otherwise it was filled to the brim with FOMO. You can't even use artifacts today, the entire progression system is gone. WoD was terrible with Garrisons replacing world content.

At least MoP had Timeless Isle

Just to add to the Legion stuff
Still absolutely hate soloing legion dungeons killing a boss and "Oh look Relics...so many useless useless Relics"

[WowIsDead64]

But that's again your opinion.

WoD and Legion had terrible solo in some cases too.

Legion was lucky to have lots of content, that's its only pro. Otherwise it was filled to the brim with FOMO. You can't even use artifacts today, the entire progression system is gone. WoD was terrible with Garrisons replacing world content.

At least MoP had Timeless Isle

WOD is the most solo-friendly xpack in Wow's history. At least after patch 6.2.

Yeah, Legion had it's own problems. Quest bloat, jump/navigation puzzles, flying being gated behind terrible Suramar rep-grind, wasted Broken Shore and Argus. But at least they were avoidable. I just wouldn't even play Legion before 7.2. FOMO and RNG were problems for min-maxers only. Remember? Covenants had exactly the same problem. Players like me, for whom player power isn't just mean for competing with other players - things like borrowed powers and RNG-gating don't really matter. Random legendaries? Who cares. They aren't needed for player, who only does outdoor content. Legion just has the best pros/cons ratio for me.

Timeless Isle? Overcrowded claustrophobic no-flying locations aren't for me. That's why I was unsubbed in MOP almost all the time. No flying during leveling destroyed leveling. mandatory FOMO rep-grinds destroyed dungeons. Overcrowding destroyed dailies. No-flying locations destroyed everything else. Perfect example of xpack, that had 0 content for me. Only thing, I liked about MOP - how immersive it's locations were. I liked music and relaxing atmosphere.