Could the Horde have "won" the Second War against the Alliance in a fair fight?

[Ereb]

wtf is a fair fight? The way it went down originally was fair.

"All is fair in war"

[Skytotem]

Fairness is for sports and tests, do not seek fairness in war, seek victory.

[Syegfryed]

I believe you know what I mean. The Orcish Horde had so much help from outside sources and events that suited them. Remove all the Burning Legion assets (Death Knights, Warlocks, Fel Energy, Undead) and Deathwing's Dragon Soul which provided enslaved red dragons

How is that any different from the alliance having their own assets like gryphons, mages, paladins and arcane energy?

You know in the game these units were perfectly paired to show how the factions were evenly matched right?.

remove Alterac's betrayal which helped them reach Lordaeron

Wouldn't make any difference.

and have the Alliance of all these Kingdoms to take them seriously from the start

And if the horde was united without infighting... if the horde didn't had killed tons of their own clans back in outland... if they had brought all of the people from outland to azeroth from start, if they didn't had ditched their alliance with the Amani, if they had reach for the other trolls....

if if if. there is that saying "if my grandma had two wheels she would be a bicycle"

[NekoOwlAzure]

How is that any different from the alliance having their own assets like gryphons, mages, paladins and arcane energy?

You know in the game these units were perfectly paired to show how the factions were evenly matched right?.

That's more akin to the Orcs having Wolves, Shamanistic culture, Warlock magic and Warrior strength. The thing is the Orcs were kinda sent as just dogs of the Legion though, like the Legion sent them to cause destruction for their purpose.

[Syegfryed]

That's more akin to the Orcs having Wolves, Shamanistic culture, Warlock magic and Warrior strength.

Wolves would be paired with horses, a strong horse calvary might be better than wolves due to being more of then, its harder to breed wolves and it take tons of resources to feed then

Shamanistic? they were no longer that at the time, their warlocks were the alliance mages, their death knight were the alliance paladin, if orcs had strength the alliance had better equipment

The thing is the Orcs were kinda sent as just dogs of the Legion though, like the Legion sent them to cause destruction for their purpose.

That doesnt rly change much the outcoming, dogs or not they would have won without their infighting and defection

[NekoOwlAzure]

Wolves would be paired with horses, a strong horse calvary might be better than wolves due to being more of then, its harder to breed wolves and it take tons of resources to feed then

Shamanistic? they were no longer that at the time, their warlocks were the alliance mages, their death knight was the alliance paladin, if orcs had strenght the alliance had better equipement



That doesnt rly chahnge much the outcoming, dogs or not they would have won without their infighting and defection

But what do the Orcs have that is their own though? The Gryphons were flying mounts used by the Dwarves. The Orcs fighting as themselves might be one thing, but being driven on by the Legion, fuelled by them etc could be a different thing.

[Syegfryed]

But what do the Orcs have that is their own though?

Does it matter? human magic was taught by the elves, how is that any different from kil'jaden teaching gul'dan and him teaching the others?

The Gryphons were flying mounts used by the Dwarves.

The dwarves that also fought for the alliance.

The Orcs fighting as themselves might be one thing

The humans never fought as themselves either.

[NekoOwlAzure]

Does it matter? human magic was taught by the elves, how is that any different from kil'jaden teaching gul'dan and him teaching the others?


The dwarves that also fought for the alliance.



The humans never fought as themselves either.

Well they might've had some things that were fighting as themselves but if they only got as far as they did because the Legion made them able to then I'm not sure that's something to be too proud of.

[Syegfryed]

Well they might've had some things that were fighting as themselves but if they only got as far as they did because the Legion made them able to then I'm not sure that's something to be too proud of.

Same way humans only are this advanced because the elves made them able to.

[NekoOwlAzure]

Same way humans only are this advanced because the elves made them able to.

Well they probably were themselves learning it, and the same could be said about Orcs learning warlock magic from Kil'jaeden, but I'm not sure the same could be said about twisting them as death knights and that.

[vian]

Ofc, only reason the alliance is still there is because of plotarmor.

[Aucald]

Well they probably were themselves learning it, and the same could be said about Orcs learning warlock magic from Kil'jaeden, but I'm not sure the same could be said about twisting them as death knights and that.

Not to mention that, according to Rise of the Horde, Kil'jaeden could literally just psychically thrust new spells and abilities into the minds of orcish Warlocks, and did so before the siege of Shattrath City on Draenor. Human magi had to manually learn and become proficient with the practice of arcane magic taught by the elves. The Blood-Curse stemming from the orcs' consumption of the blood of Mannoroth also increased their natural durability, enhanced their strength, and bestowed them with what is described as an "unstoppable feral rage and bloodlust."

[Syegfryed]

Well they probably were themselves learning it, and the same could be said about Orcs learning warlock magic from Kil'jaeden, but I'm not sure the same could be said about twisting them as death knights and that.

That gul'dan who did, it was his "spell" and his doing

[Darth-Piekus]

Just to clarify on the matter. The Orcsish Horde had help by plenty of outside forces to bring Azeroth down.
1)The Burning Legion taught them fel and death magic through Guldan and Nerzhul and they had none before in order to counter the Paladins who had no answer yet.
2)Deathwing gave them the Dragon Soul so they could enslave Alexstrasza and use her to breed and make dragons as also other Red Dragons so they had an answer for Gryphon Riders and the Kul Tiran fleet.
3)Getting a free pass from Alterac's betrayal which without it the events could have gone differently.
4)The Alliance as a coalition of nations not taking the situation seriously from the start. In fact the elves responded only when Quel Thalas was threatened.

[Daronokk]

Just to clarify on the matter. The Orcsish Horde had help by plenty of outside forces to bring Azeroth down.
1)The Burning Legion taught them fel and death magic through Guldan and Nerzhul and they had none before in order to counter the Paladins who had no answer yet.
2)Deathwing gave them the Dragon Soul so they could enslave Alexstrasza and use her to breed and make dragons as also other Red Dragons so they had an answer for Gryphon Riders and the Kul Tiran fleet.
3)Getting a free pass from Alterac's betrayal which without it the events could have gone differently.
4)The Alliance as a coalition of nations not taking the situation seriously from the start. In fact the elves responded only when Quel Thalas was threatened.

So? The Burning Legion and Deathwing were kind of aligned with the Horde back then. It's part of the invading force.

If you want to play that game you could also include Titans / Old God influence for the Alliance as most of their races were formed by the Titans or were supercharged through the Well of Eternity giving them an advantage.

[Hardwing]

I think these are multiple scenarios at once:
1.If Gul'dan hadn't betrayed Doomhammer in Quel'thulas? If he had simply waited until the Horde engages Kul'tiras? The Horde would have won, even if Alterac still closed the mountain passes and it would have come the long way, or had to fight its way through, a third of the Horde, maybe more(Twilight Hammer, Stormreavers, Amani, Ogre Magi, Death Knights, etc.), would have supported an undivided Horde force, maybe just clash with Lothar's arriving forces. It would have been the climatic final battle Orgrim would have found worthy, but with them united and all these victories behind them? The Horde would have won after a hard fight.

2.If neither Alterac nor Gul'dan had betrayed ... pretty much scenario 1.

3.If all the Orc Clans left on Draenor had jojned the initial campaign of the Second War? Victory, even if with Gul'dan's betrayal. Maybe the Thunderlord Clan might have climbed the cliffs of Alterac as they seem to be gifted to do? Maybe(all Orc Clans), the Frostwolves would have at least shown their brethren secret ways through? Even if Orgrim sent a group of them after Gul'dan, he would have enough warriors and leaders ready to fill the gap.

4.If all Horde Forces/Orc Clans had joined Orgrim at the final battle of Blackrock Mountain? A Horde victory, but a limited one. Even if due to surprise, maybe Draenor's Orc Clans suddenly appearing, Alliance forces were routed, Horde Forces would be decimated by the losses of the Lordaeron Campaign and now would have to fight through Khaz Modan again to even reach the northern continent which might have been fortified. Even with a fresh army, this time the Horde might not be able to land in Lordaeron and might face an ever escalating, maybe decade long conflict, if both sides manage to recruit allies like in BfA but on steroids.

[Syegfryed]

Just to clarify on the matter. The Orcsish Horde had help by plenty of outside forces to bring Azeroth down.
1)The Burning Legion taught them fel and death magic through Guldan and Nerzhul and they had none before in order to counter the Paladins who had no answer yet.
2)Deathwing gave them the Dragon Soul so they could enslave Alexstrasza and use her to breed and make dragons as also other Red Dragons so they had an answer for Gryphon Riders and the Kul Tiran fleet.
3)Getting a free pass from Alterac's betrayal which without it the events could have gone differently.
4)The Alliance as a coalition of nations not taking the situation seriously from the start. In fact the elves responded only when Quel Thalas was threatened.

1. Elves taught humans arcane magic and the naaru taught the humans light magic.

2. You think the alliance ALLIES didnt give then resources as well? you literally listed then.

3. It couldnt, they could just forced their way trough

4. If the horde was also united, all the clans were in azeroth and they didn't infight, thingd would be handled different as well.

[Joyreym]

If everything had happened differently from what happened, could the horde have won?Yes, I think the bronze dragonflight has made it very clear that there are countless variants of all the events that occurred. In many of them, the horde could definitely have won, and in several others, the Alliance could have won.So, in my view, it matters little to discuss military tactics; literally anything could have happened.

I don't know if this is a general consensus or just an impression I have of the story they want to tell, but they are hinting that perhaps our timeline is not the true one, if we can say that any timeline is 'true' and if it makes a difference to define it that way, since in the other timelines they breathe air and feel pain just like the inhabitants of Azeroth.

[Darth-Piekus]

1)While it is true Elves taught humans arcane magic it was a mutual alliance as the humans helped the elves in their war against the trolls. The difference regarding the Burning Legion is that they never taught Orcs Fel and Death Magic. They pretty much forced fed it in their minds for the sole purpose to invade Azeroth and be their personal army of destruction.
2)The Alliance as a coalition had mutual resources. They never had outside help from Old Gods or Titans who were absent for millennia. The Burning Legion, Deathwing and his Dragon Soul, the Twilight Hammer etc etc pretty much were forces that helped the Orcish Horde not for the Horde's benefit but to establish their own goals. They gained dragons so they could be able to fight gryphon riders and the Kul Tiran fleet. Fel and Death magic gave them the means to equal the Paladins.
3)I also think Alterac could not have beaten the Orcish Horde alone but think of the delay and the time they could buy for Lothar's Army to surround Doomhammer.
4)If the Horde had all the clans united they still couldn't win an Alliance of Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes and 7 Human Kingdoms that would take them seriously from the start. Definately not without assets that I described above. After all Maraad did say back in WoD that the Draenei alone had enough firepower to wipe the Orcs the moment they landed on Draenor and they didn't do it as they were a peaceful race.
5)I will agree though in one thing. The history could have been written differently in so many different scenarios.

Just so you know. I totally respect your opinion. It's ok. I just happen to have a different opinion.