Low Drop Rate on the Highest Performing Trinkets

[exochaft]

This argument is nonsensical, because on paper, only people doing +21 NW and +20 Mists actually need BiS items, and everyone else "can get better at the game". But nobody's telling a heroic raider that he should be fine with 580 ilvl as long as he gets good enough to be on a level of Echo raiders, so he shouldn't feel entitled to better gear.

It's none of yours or anyone's buissnes where my skill caps and why, and asking for logs to prove a point is ludicrous. I can be disabled, I can be half blind, I can simply be a slow thinker (or clicker). It doesn't matter. What matters is that I should be rewarded if I invest time into the game and complete relevant content, week after week. IMHO it's not ok in ANY game to play for multiple weeks without seeing a relevant reward (which late into the season often happens with the vault bingo, due to its random nature and no bad luck protection). And I consider design that supports this (even if "by omission", which is not the case here, as we had better bad luck protection in past seasons) a predatory practice.

EDIT: Honestly, the more I think about it, the more bullshit this whole argument sounds. Why is this entitlement thing even in the conversation? If I, a heroic raider and weekly +10 enjoyer, kill a boss week after week, and you, a CE wannabe and future MDI champion, do the same thing, than we are both entitled to the exact same rewards. So why even mention: "Well, you don't need it"? It's some next level gaslighting going on here, to defend bad design in the name of... well, I can't even fathom what. It's scary how some people here are programmed to defend Blizzard at all cost.

To be fair, if someone is still sticking around with WoW at this point, there's a decent chance one will play the game no matter what Blizz does. Not to say that's everyone, but Blizz probably found their player floor around Shadowlands... i.e. we can use and abuse X amount of players and they'll never leave. I tend to all it institutionalization, but programming works too.

The "you don't need it" argument has never held water. If we want to get really technical, that line of logic would imply that almost all mythic raiders don't need mythic gear because "world first raiders can clear raids with mostly heroic ilvl gear, so anyone who can't obviously needs to git gud!" The counter would be that non-world first raiders need the gear as a crutch, which then undermines the usual line of "you don't need it" as increasing ilvl is basically the only crutch one has now to beat content. Ultimately, the "you don't need it" argument stems from a certain strain of elitism that's been fostered by the design of the game; yes it'll exist anywhere, but WoW has been designed in a way that gear promotes such thinking.

Imagine if the following change was made to the game: all gear ilvl caps at heroic raid level while mythic raids are designed around everyone having full heroic ilvl gear equipped. Suddenly, gear progression has a much more broadly attainable end point for many players, and mythic raiding is suddenly completely about skill and not gear disparity (it basically becomes the Mage Tower but for raiding, rewarding non-power gain items/cosmetics). People would suddenly find the irony that the top end mythic raiders would probably be more than fine with this (as well as the vast majority of players), and the people screaming the loudest about "this gear isn't for you, git gud if you want it" would probably be the most irate with such a change. While I'd love for such a change to occur, I think Blizz would be terrified of such a change as they'd probably find out that a good portion of mythic raiders probably don't want to be there as they're only chasing ilvl and gear power while not giving a toss about mythic raiding in general... a further irony would be that it mythic raiding would be more accessible than ever but would simultaneously see a large drop off in participation in all likelihood.

[Relapses]

This argument is nonsensical, because on paper, only people doing +21 NW and +20 Mists actually need BiS items, and everyone else "can get better at the game". But nobody's telling a heroic raider that he should be fine with 580 ilvl as long as he gets good enough to be on a level of Echo raiders, so he shouldn't feel entitled to better gear.

That's not what I'm saying either?

It's none of yours or anyone's buissnes where my skill caps and why, and asking for logs to prove a point is ludicrous. I can be disabled, I can be half blind, I can simply be a slow thinker (or clicker). It doesn't matter. What matters is that I should be rewarded if I invest time into the game and complete relevant content, week after week. IMHO it's not ok in ANY game to play for multiple weeks without seeing a relevant reward (which late into the season often happens with the vault bingo, due to its random nature and no bad luck protection). And I consider design that supports this (even if "by omission", which is not the case here, as we had better bad luck protection in past seasons) a predatory practice.

You mentioned coins earlier but fail to account for how the GV is intended to be the BLP replacement for coins. Coins were pure RNG but there was a slight bit of determinism added in the GV by giving you (the potential for) multiple pieces to choose from. Is it not better to choose from 3 rewards than it is to pray you get the one item of seven that you need from a specific boss? I agree that the ability to target a specific boss' loot table was a nice perk that the GV doesn't have but I also understand why Blizzard would be reticent to reintroduce coins when we already have the GV.

EDIT: Honestly, the more I think about it, the more bullshit this whole argument sounds. Why is this entitlement thing even in the conversation? If I, a heroic raider and weekly +10 enjoyer, kill a boss week after week, and you, a CE wannabe and future MDI champion, do the same thing, than we are both entitled to the exact same rewards. So why even mention: "Well, you don't need it"? It's some next level gaslighting going on here, to defend bad design in the name of... well, I can't even fathom what. It's scary how some people here are programmed to defend Blizzard at all cost.

Brother, I'm not even defending Blizzard here lmfao. I've said in every post on the subject that I think that BLP can be improved. I'm just pointing out that people have this weird tendency to put way more value on drop rates and that has a tendency to feed into underperformance. A player doesn't get their BiS in the first week so they excuse their suboptimal performance on the fact that they don't have their BiS trinket. The trinket continues to not drop for them and they continue to underperform. Surely, it's the trinket that's not dropping that's causing the suboptimal performance, right?

[Twdft]

The "you don't need it" argument has never held water.

My argument in this thread is that 99.9% of players do not need the highest performing trinket, they will achieve their goal with any combination of trinkets usable by their spec. There's a difference between want and need, and I never said you can't want something.

[Rageonit]

My argument in this thread is that 99.9% of players do not need the highest performing trinket, they will achieve their goal with any combination of trinkets usable by their spec. There's a difference between want and need, and I never said you can't want something.

Out of curiosity: what if your goal is to get the trinket? For any reason at all, lets not be judgmental. Is there any way to achieve the goal of getting a specific item without getting said item? Or are you going to explain next that items aren't goals, but only means to other goals.

[conkrete]

To be fair, if someone is still sticking around with WoW at this point, there's a decent chance one will play the game no matter what Blizz does. Not to say that's everyone, but Blizz probably found their player floor around Shadowlands... i.e. we can use and abuse X amount of players and they'll never leave. I tend to all it institutionalization, but programming works too.

The "you don't need it" argument has never held water. If we want to get really technical, that line of logic would imply that almost all mythic raiders don't need mythic gear because "world first raiders can clear raids with mostly heroic ilvl gear, so anyone who can't obviously needs to git gud!" The counter would be that non-world first raiders need the gear as a crutch, which then undermines the usual line of "you don't need it" as increasing ilvl is basically the only crutch one has now to beat content. Ultimately, the "you don't need it" argument stems from a certain strain of elitism that's been fostered by the design of the game; yes it'll exist anywhere, but WoW has been designed in a way that gear promotes such thinking.

Imagine if the following change was made to the game: all gear ilvl caps at heroic raid level while mythic raids are designed around everyone having full heroic ilvl gear equipped. Suddenly, gear progression has a much more broadly attainable end point for many players, and mythic raiding is suddenly completely about skill and not gear disparity (it basically becomes the Mage Tower but for raiding, rewarding non-power gain items/cosmetics). People would suddenly find the irony that the top end mythic raiders would probably be more than fine with this (as well as the vast majority of players), and the people screaming the loudest about "this gear isn't for you, git gud if you want it" would probably be the most irate with such a change. While I'd love for such a change to occur, I think Blizz would be terrified of such a change as they'd probably find out that a good portion of mythic raiders probably don't want to be there as they're only chasing ilvl and gear power while not giving a toss about mythic raiding in general... a further irony would be that it mythic raiding would be more accessible than ever but would simultaneously see a large drop off in participation in all likelihood.

Nailed it. If "gear doesn't matter" I wonder why the race to world first guilds are so obsessed with heroic splits and put themselves in situations to maximize their chances at getting these drops. They're good so they don't need it.

The human ego is fascinating.

[Twdft]

Out of curiosity: what if your goal is to get the trinket? For any reason at all, lets not be judgmental. Is there any way to achieve the goal of getting a specific item without getting said item? Or are you going to explain next that items aren't goals, but only means to other goals.

Yeah when the goal is just to have the thing no matter the properties then you're right, there's nothing to discuss since the goal is not based in anything other than subjective preference.

Seems a bit off topic for a thread that is specifically about the property of highest performing trinkets tho...

[Glorious Leader]

To be fair, if someone is still sticking around with WoW at this point, there's a decent chance one will play the game no matter what Blizz does. Not to say that's everyone, but Blizz probably found their player floor around Shadowlands... i.e. we can use and abuse X amount of players and they'll never leave. I tend to all it institutionalization, but programming works too.

The "you don't need it" argument has never held water. If we want to get really technical, that line of logic would imply that almost all mythic raiders don't need mythic gear because "world first raiders can clear raids with mostly heroic ilvl gear, so anyone who can't obviously needs to git gud!" The counter would be that non-world first raiders need the gear as a crutch, which then undermines the usual line of "you don't need it" as increasing ilvl is basically the only crutch one has now to beat content. Ultimately, the "you don't need it" argument stems from a certain strain of elitism that's been fostered by the design of the game; yes it'll exist anywhere, but WoW has been designed in a way that gear promotes such thinking.

Imagine if the following change was made to the game: all gear ilvl caps at heroic raid level while mythic raids are designed around everyone having full heroic ilvl gear equipped. Suddenly, gear progression has a much more broadly attainable end point for many players, and mythic raiding is suddenly completely about skill and not gear disparity (it basically becomes the Mage Tower but for raiding, rewarding non-power gain items/cosmetics). People would suddenly find the irony that the top end mythic raiders would probably be more than fine with this (as well as the vast majority of players), and the people screaming the loudest about "this gear isn't for you, git gud if you want it" would probably be the most irate with such a change. While I'd love for such a change to occur, I think Blizz would be terrified of such a change as they'd probably find out that a good portion of mythic raiders probably don't want to be there as they're only chasing ilvl and gear power while not giving a toss about mythic raiding in general... a further irony would be that it mythic raiding would be more accessible than ever but would simultaneously see a large drop off in participation in all likelihood.

Ive long argued that mythic raiding should essentially function as a challenge mode. This would also provide the benefit of even finer tuning as player ilvl would be standard across the board.

[Rageonit]

Yeah when the goal is just to have the thing no matter the properties then you're right, there's nothing to discuss since the goal is not based in anything other than subjective preference.

Your goal to kill a boss or complete a mythic key is as subjective as my goal to get an item. It's just something you want to do; not something dictated by a higher necessity. I get an item that makes me excited; and you get a rio score that makes you excited. Both are equally superfluous.

[Byleth]

Imagine if the following change was made to the game: all gear ilvl caps at heroic raid level while mythic raids are designed around everyone having full heroic ilvl gear equipped. Suddenly, gear progression has a much more broadly attainable end point for many players, and mythic raiding is suddenly completely about skill and not gear disparity (it basically becomes the Mage Tower but for raiding, rewarding non-power gain items/cosmetics). People would suddenly find the irony that the top end mythic raiders would probably be more than fine with this (as well as the vast majority of players), and the people screaming the loudest about "this gear isn't for you, git gud if you want it" would probably be the most irate with such a change. While I'd love for such a change to occur, I think Blizz would be terrified of such a change as they'd probably find out that a good portion of mythic raiders probably don't want to be there as they're only chasing ilvl and gear power while not giving a toss about mythic raiding in general... a further irony would be that it mythic raiding would be more accessible than ever but would simultaneously see a large drop off in participation in all likelihood.

I mean you could just say, Imagine if wow was like FFXIV. It's the exact same point. That is exactly how FFXIV raiding works.

[Tech614]

I mean you could just say, Imagine if wow was like FFXIV. It's the exact same point. That is exactly how FFXIV raiding works.

Nah, FFXIV gets basically max gear by doing the equivalent to LFR or even just buying it off the market board. XIV doesn't really have a comparable difficulty to heroic, you have brain dead normal raids and then a jump to savage, and savage raiders will only have a slight weapon advantage over the people that grind their weekly normals out.

The only comparable difficulties between the games are normal/alliance raids to LFR. The other difficulties can not really be compared between the games. Savages are harder than WoW heroics but not as hard as WoW Mythics and Ultimates are basically their own thing with nothing similar to that boss rush style of encounter in WoW.

[Fitsu]

Also seems flawed. What if I'm after a second duplicate 1H for my Frost DK? Getting a loot drop marked off (and unable to drop again) would actually be bad.

I did mention it would be a choice, so you could still play with the current system where it would be pure RNG if your trying to get multiple of the same item.

You could then use the system when you RNG your first weapon to help target farm the second.

It could also reset once you've found every item in the dungeon.

[Alroxas]

Except they didn't. It was 464 gear at a time when max ilvl gear was 528. "raid ready" was just marketing bullshit for "this is the minimum ilvl to que for LFR".

Congrats on falling for the marketing scam by thinking they where selling actual good gear. They sold gear that was a full 2 seasons behind the current max ilvl, and this wasn't a new thing either- the boosts always gave you similar ilvl gear in every single preorder phase of a new xpac since the boost has been a thing. Literally the only thing that changed was them calling it "raid ready" and people like you falling for the marketing words. The free boost you got with buying TWW gave you the same damn gear as the "raid ready boost" lmfao.

And missing my point as well... note the very next line I stated:

Wouldn't be too far of a stretch for some C-suite executive that is so out of touch with the player base to suggest a "whale" package that literally hands over the best loot in the game to players for a very hefty premium.

So instead of giving the "bare minimum" gear to queue for LFR at $70... Price the package for giving the maximum possible gear (i.e. 6/6 mythic track) of the current season at an ultra absurdly high premium (i.e. $1200 USD) for players who want to shortcut through progression. That's the mentality I'm trying to paint for you folks - some C-suite executive who doesn't get how wow players think and instead is thinking of how do we cash in on WoW whales because hey a $90 mount sure brought in tons of money, surely we can do the same with player progression.

- - - Updated - - -

Nailed it. If "gear doesn't matter" I wonder why the race to world first guilds are so obsessed with heroic splits and put themselves in situations to maximize their chances at getting these drops. They're good so they don't need it.

The human ego is fascinating.

Except I don't think you're balancing that quite fairly. One of the reasons why R2WF guilds are doing heroic splits is to have more heroic gear going into mythic raid. In all honestly, they probably are more undergeared than most mythic raid teams when non-R2WF teams start doing mythics.

To be frank - if Blizzard truly wanted to legitimize R2WF - they should move all that to tournament realms where all participating teams have a "fair" starting point. All heroic level gear is given to them along with all enchants, consumables, enchants, etc and let the skill of players determine who is "better".

Instead we have this mad dash of which "team" has a larger support base that funnels resources so that the primary team can get geared to have the chance to "compete".

But flip it around - Those very same players (i.e. R2WF) probably can make even lower geared toons perform better than the majority of WoW players who are better geared. Their level of skill does make the gear "factor" less of an issue because of how well they play.