In 17 years of WoW...

[conkrete]

You said -

"I dipped into Classic recently and was shocked at how well Combat, MM, Survival, and even Unholy held up. How is it possible to design a spec worse 17 years later?"

Well wrath hasn't been on classic realms in like a year now and people generally refer to the OG version as "classic", though after re-reading it, I could see that you were trying to talk about WOTLK, so maybe you're playing on private servers I guess?

So I'll chalk that up to confusion on my part I guess

To answer your other question -

Well retail has quite a few more procs, buffs to watch, less stuff on GCD, and I want to say more haste (which speeds up GCD)

Overall theres a clear difference in APM and overall cognitive load with retail vs wotlk (in any class)

Cool, but you failed to quote what came before where I clearly said "WotLK." It was all the context you needed.

[Caprias]

The nice thing about Hunter in Classic, and this is true of a lot of classes, is that it had its own playstyle that was totally different than everything else. You were trying to balance abilities with the auto-attack timer, and timing your movements accordingly. Rogue was the "rotation" class. Not every class is a rotation class.

Classic (Vanilla) class gameplay is very unique indeed in the sense that it was designed for pensioners.

Which could be pretty cool for me in.. idk 40 years or so.

[NineSpine]

Classic (Vanilla) class gameplay is very unique indeed in the sense that it was designed for pensioners.

Which could be pretty cool for me in.. idk 40 years or so.

"I need a game that screams at me with bright colors and flashing popups like I am a 7 year old with ADHD whose parents raised them on an ipad" is not the dunk you think it is.

[Gestopft]

I said WotLK. You know... Aimed Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Shot and Chimera Shot were all instant - Only Steady Shot, its lowest damaging ability, was casted. You could kite ANYTHING.

I dunno, it always felt wrong that Aimed Shot was just another instant in WotLK. (Although, really, the worst part of WotLK for MM was the DPS disparity between having two-plus paladins in your raid versus having fewer than two.)

I've really enjoyed MM the last couple expansions, but I'm playing mostly SV since halfway through this season so I'm reserving my feelings about the rework until I have a more thorough experience, and some more gear to see how the secondary scaling feels.

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There ya go, finally someone with some sense. I didn't exactly play hunter in WOTLK... I cannot think of a single spec from even cata that was "fast" compared to rotations now.

I don't know about "fast," but there were some that were certainly busy and/or convoluted. Destro- and other lock specs, but Destro in particular- was an absolute clusterfuck of a rotation in Cata which is why the whole class got a massive rework for MoP

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"I need a game that screams at me with bright colors and flashing popups like I am a 7 year old with ADHD whose parents raised them on an ipad" is not the dunk you think it is.

This is quite the exaggeration. There's a broad spectrum between "ADHD 7-year old" and "yawning while watching a swing timer"

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And people complained about Outlaw in DF? Sure it was a bit much for some, but at least it was interesting, engaging and kept the player invested every second of it.

I thought you were "not a fan of specs where one misstep leads to severe punishment with little reward" though.

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Demon Hunter says hello.

This take is a few expansions old at this point...

[NineSpine]

I dunno, it always felt wrong that Aimed Shot was just another instant in WotLK. (Although, really, the worst part of WotLK for MM was the DPS disparity between having two-plus paladins in your raid versus having fewer than two.)

I've really enjoyed MM the last couple expansions, but I'm playing mostly SV since halfway through this season so I'm reserving my feelings about the rework until I have a more thorough experience, and some more gear to see how the secondary scaling feels.

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I don't know about "fast," but there were some that were certainly busy and/or convoluted. Destro- and other lock specs, but Destro in particular- was an absolute clusterfuck of a rotation in Cata which is why the whole class got a massive rework for MoP

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This is quite the exaggeration. There's a broad spectrum between "ADHD 7-year old" and "yawning while watching a swing timer"

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I thought you were "not a fan of specs where one misstep leads to severe punishment with little reward" though.

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This take is a few expansions old at this point...

The interesting thing about WoW was never, and will never be, its combat. Thats why there are so few games with this ludicrous tab target system.

[HansOlo]

Never before have I played a class spec as mind-numbingly boring as MM on the PTR. By the end of the run, I was practically begging for it to be over.

Even WotLK’s iteration of MM—despite lacking all the modern quality-of-life features we now consider essential—felt better than this. Why? Because it was dynamic and fast-paced. We were supposed to feel like Legolas, not a clunky catapult. This version? It’s not even close. I dipped into Classic recently and was shocked at how well Combat, MM, Survival, and even Unholy held up. How is it possible to design a spec worse 17 years later?

I’m not a fan of specs where one misstep leads to severe punishment with little reward. And let’s be real: modern M+ and raiding are chaotic enough as it is. Right now, MM isn’t winning any fans or dropping Enhancement-levels of performance, what do we want out of this classic spec?

I want to play my character and feel like I'm one step away from winning the lottery. This is the exact opposite—as if Blizzard handed me a spreadsheet and said, "Here, calculate your taxes while standing in fire."

In short, it's boring, slow, and it sucks - especially in single target and M+.

• Double or triple the proc rate of surging shots.
• Pair improved streamline with Master Marksman. No talent that drastically reduces the cast of Aimed Shot should be that deep in the tree. What? Do you want to give players the option to go slower than this? Madness.
• Increase Master Marksman's bleed damage
• Improve Auto Shot's swing speed (Hunters were supposed to be Legolas, agile ranged Rogues).
• Lower some abilities' throughput accordingly. However, let the spec be awesome for once.

MM right now has severely suffers from a lack of identity and its fantasy is lacking.

It might be controversial, but aside from the current QoL changes that were added to MM like the eagle, being able to cast Bloodlust without the pet, and the rest of it, I wouldn't change DF's MM. Trueshot felt special. Fast and hard-hitting. The spec just needed a buff. Trueshot should feel like ascendance, impactful not boring.

Speaking of which, how long is this spec going to be terrible for M+? Seriously? We had a couple of good weeks in Shadowlands before Wild Spirits were nerfed. THAT WAS IT. But at the same time Blizzard left Fire Mage and Balance be broken for the entirety of the season. Unreal.

Thank God this class has survival to save the show, because given how mechanically dull, and draining the alternative BM is, I'm sure this class would be dead to me.

And people complained about Outlaw in DF? Sure it was a bit much for some, but at least it was interesting, engaging and kept the player invested every second of it.

Premise: how is the spec WORSE after 17years?

"Worse" is confusing you. It's not about worse or better. It's about renewal and rework.

"REWORK" generates money - but, "BEST EVER ITTERATION EVER" is a contradiction in software development(also in terms of business).

Reworks keep you waiting or makes you return. Perfect makes it final - it makes you stay and move on. It's a contridiction of interests - even for the consumer.

They are NOT interested in making things perfect - they are interested in making things perfect, sometimes. They will put MM out there, just like how they did with shamans. Ironically, it proved to be the best business model(source: market share of WoW).

So the premise is vague - and you end up with some vague conclussion.

[Megarichkid]

I can get rank 1 in all brackets in PvP on marksmanship forever. I was in the literal top matchmaking within 15 games of blitz last season. All the tiny things about blizzard doing things to this class you think matter and impact performance actually don’t, top players are just leagues ahead of you since day 1.

I actually can’t imagine playing this game and being so invested and being a bad player especially on something as easy as pve content, and then blaming changes that don’t affect skill at all. Just give up is my advice to you

[KrayZ33]

Navy Seal Copypasta vibes.

[akaTheDude]

Hunter went down hill for me when they took away the range survival spec.

Oh man...I miss the old SV so much!

[Cynical Asshole]

I dunno what happened, but 11.1 drained all the fun out of both MM and BM for me, at least for PVE purposes. The devs have no idea what they're doing in the Fun department. Not to mention that with the dire lack of tanks, there aren't as many groups going, and those that do, only invite high scored and high ilvl players, and tbh I'm not a no-lifer at the game to be able to compete in the group finder window with actual no-lifers most of whom are being boosted by their guilds too.

I just relegated my BM hunter to just solo casual PVP, where it's fun and strong. I mean I would play MM for solo casual PVP but MM is just hot garbage at 1v1 against several other classes, like warrior, rogue, feral, and ret, while BM just shits on these guys, so no point playing anything other than BM in PVP.

For M+ I just made a protection warrior because it's easy and straightforward to play, and also I don't get

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And let's not talk about my ret paladin. My main in DF, but with the changes in TWW it has become a dumped alt. I don't like any of the hero specs, and also because of the new Mastery thing autocasting Exorcism at the target, my female draenei hits herself with her weapon in the head when autocasting that and I fucking HATE visual glitches like that, and I can't play a human male because his head vibrates during running animation and instantly puts into my brain the image of a decrepit old man whose head shakes constantly.

[Daedius]

Hunter went down hill for me when they took away the range survival spec.

Survival is awesome for PvP though.

[vian]

I take it you never tried early year warlock.

[Coidon]

Hard to take anything said by "humans" serious, they complain about anything & everything, i'ts all just made up grievances for grievances sake, you would complain if farts smelled strawberry & it is all just opinions & whimsical at that.

[immolation]

True peak was sidewinder MM.

Everyone hated it and I feel edgy for loving it, but god damn, I do.

It had high damage, high impact skills and it also relied on proper "timings".

This. most fun ever had with MM

[SL1200]

Survival is awesome for PvP though.

There's gota be a way we can get the old survival spec without taking the the Current one away.

[conkrete]

I rescinding some of the complaints I listed here. The devs clearly want us to use Precise Shots a lot more during Trueshot, which was never the case in the past. If you don't your casts are extremely slow, you start to get low on focus, and the sluggishness that I mentioned in the OP starts to occur. It's not very dynamic.

However, if you use those Precise Shot procs a lot more during that window, you get a much more dynamic Trueshot window.

I maintain my thoughts on M+ tuning which is still very lackluster. It's not competitive for a class with limited utility.

There's gotta be a way we can get the old survival spec without taking the the Current one away.

I like the current melee iteration, we could have a fourth ranged SV spec? I don't know. Wild thought.

[SL1200]

Blizz hasn't said anything about bringing it back, but there isn't any reason hunters couldnt' gain another spec if they wanted to do it.

[KrayZ33]

Apparently, MM hunter is like 30+% ahead in AoE for M+? (unless you go for 10+ targets)
Outside of cooldowns, I seem to no longer be able to play that spec (last time was in Legion for me).
I can't for the love of god get nice DPS with that spec anywhere but ST and during trueshot windows. Or strike that, it seems like the way I'm doing M+ dungeons isn't the true Meta and the amount of times I'm suffering through 2 target scenarios instead of 3+ is astounding.

Survival is probably going to be my go to spec this season as well.

I'm even worse in BM it seems, or gear with the right substats has way more impact than I think it does.
I don't even know what I'm doing wrong when playing ranged. Especially when I'm playing BM but it always feels like I'm lagging when I play it. I might have to take a look at some macros and see if they fuck up the responsiveness or something. My BM is absolute trash and all the numbers are so freaking low, I feel like Warlock DoTs deal higher numbers than the ones I see on screen while playing BM

MM AoE is:

Multi / RF / Multi / AiS - right? There is literally nothing you can do other than that.
Explosive is worse than AiS afaik, but even if it's not, it's never ever going to be a day and night difference from what I currently deal without it.

So while I'm getting cool high numbers in 5-6 targets when Trueshot is available, I'm not getting them outside of Trueshot windows at all and even my "meh" ability to play Survival (which in my opinion I play much worse than MM/BM because I just press whatever is coming up and perhaps I remember to get the tip-of-the-spear rolling before I throw another bomb) overtakes MM in overalldamage (4p S1 - 658 weapon both melee and ranged)



Another thing that's absolutely horrible in terms of "feeling" when playing MM is the fact that you have 20s CD on Rapidfire and 30s CD on Sentinel.
Who the hell thought it's a good idea to tie RF to Sentinel.
I'm reliant on procs to get it on cooldown, otherwise I'm having 40s CD on Sentinel isntead of 30s.
And apparently it's worth to wait ~7 seconds and not use RF, even though it's the hardest hitting skill MM has?



Give me back my Sidewinder MM from Legion man...

[Doffen]

MM Rework was mostly great imo, though the main issue(ST vs AoE in m+) wasnt solved that great, but its better.

I liked MM in Legion the most, like best iteration of any spec in the game of all time, but since Dragonflight the spec went closer to how it was in Legion and it has been super fun since. Worst was BfA when it was clunky af, while Shadowlands managed to get it more on track and Dragonflight, while boring expansion gave us a great Marksmanship spec.

Of course, if you dont play MM how it is supposed to in 11.1 your Aimed Shots are slow as hell, but use your precise shot and proc streamline and its 0.2 sec cast during BL and maybe 0.3 without it during trueshot. Its different as you dont want to spam only AiS and RF anymoe, but weave those precise shot between and you get a more dynamic and fast paced gamestyle.

[saicam53]

17 years? Give or take then you missed the start of Wow into TBC when Hunters were fun but rotations were extremely boring. Original Vanilla Wow MM was almost stand around AFK for AutoShot and wait for CDs. TBC 1 button Macro bound to scroll wheel that handled your build for BM, Glad expose weakness for SV back then was somewhat viable.