What's your opinion on active mitigation? Do you think it was the right direction?

[Triceron]

That is my opinion.

Good for you then

Since everything is a win in your opinion, I'd assume there are no more tank shortages in the game? I believe active mitigation being a steep learning curve for new tanks. What, in your experience, would change if I were to sub to the game today?

Like even the post right below yours mirrors my sentiments to a T. It's the principle of designing content around perfecting active mitigation that I simply don't agree with. It's an opinion that won't likely change much if I were to sub today.

[Malkiah]

That's not even how mob damage works

yes well perhaps the word "basically" was doing too much heavy lifting in my original statement - perhaps "GCD" would have been a better term than one-shot, but the point still stands.
obviously the point is less relevant as you gear up compared to the tuning of the content you're doing, but the point still stands that for something to be dangerous to a tank class which is taking half (or less) damage of anyone else, that thing will often be almost instantly lethal to a non-tank class.
anyone who plays a dps can recall a time they went a bit too ham on even a trash pull in M+ and got obliterated by even one or two mobs attacking them, whether it's in a single hit or 2-5 hits that happen in the span of a second it's still effectively a "one-shot" in terms of the human capacity to react.

You also absolutely can recover from tank deaths. You can kite stuff and get a battle res up for the tank in a M+ and in a raid it just means the other tank is going to take more damage for a bit until you can get a res up. It's slightly more punishing than a healer or dps dying but it should be since the entire point of the role is surviving damage.

did you not read the part in the post you quoted where i specifically said you can recover from tank deaths?
i said the window for recovery feels smaller than i'd prefer, not that it's impossible to recover.

[Ereb]

Like even the post right below yours mirrors my sentiments to a T. It's the principle of designing content around perfecting active mitigation that I simply don't agree with. It's an opinion that won't likely change much if I were to sub today.

lol and the post right below that one explains how the post you reference doesn't even understand how mob damage works nor how raid bosses are tuned. Go figure you would agree with somebody else who doesn't know what they are talking about confirmation bias goes hard lmao.

It's like you think you know how the game works and feels, yet you have no idea.

[Triceron]

lol and the post right below that one explains how the post you reference doesn't even understand how mob damage works nor how raid bosses are tuned. Go figure you would agree with somebody else who doesn't know what they are talking about confirmation bias goes hard lmao.

It's like you think you know how the game works and feels, yet you have no idea.

So enlighten me, is tank shortage solved? win win win?

You don't seem to be able to answer me. Why's that?

[Ereb]

So enlighten me, is tank shortage solved? win win win?

You don't seem tobe able to answer me. Why's that?

Because the tank shortage has literally nothing to do with what we are talking about. And to enable you about it is to give stupidity more attention than it deserves. Tanking in raid is not hard bro no matter how desperate you are to believe so.

You continue to prove how out of touch you are. Have all 14k posts of yours been of this quality? Cuz somebody should fine you for littering if so.

[Triceron]

Because the tank shortage has literally nothing to do with what we are talking about. And to enable you about it is to give stupidity more attention than it deserves. Tanking in raid is not hard bro no matter how desperate you are to believe so.

You continue to prove how out of touch you are. Have all 14k posts of yours been of this quality? Cuz somebody should fine you for littering if so.

What is the topic of this thread again? Oh right, whether we think AM is in the right direction. I came from an era where AM was very basic, and I prefer it that way. I'm not offering any insight, I'm expressing an opinion. If you think it stupid, if you think it ignorant, then you be you. I can't stop people from being jackasses either. I've done raids as DPS in Legion, just not tanked them. I did find raiding to be over-reliant on addons, and felt the encounters were being designed with them in mind. Has that somehow changed today? Did they scale back raid encounters to become simpler and less Addon-reliant?

I've explained my position and my thoughts on the principles of mitigation design. I feel the same way about the over-reliance on addons and their residual effects on encounter design. Telling me 'addons are used by everyone, it's the way the game is played' doesn't change what I think about them on principle.

I get you like to press buttons. It makes you feel like you're doing something. You also think not pressing buttons is boring. Well I don't have ADHD, so I don't have that problem. I'm also aging well into my 40's, so spamming buttons isn't my ideal cup of tea any more either. If I played today, I'd probably be building towards passives and procs and play a class with the least button spam.

I honestly don't get why you're so upset over an opinion on design. I guess I'm sorry for holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read my posts. Feel free to put me on ignore and save us both some braincells.

[Stickiler]

Since everything is a win in your opinion, I'd assume there are no more tank shortages in the game? I believe active mitigation being a steep learning curve for new tanks.

There have always been tank shortages, even long before Active Mitigation was a thing. I'm not sure how much I believe that Active Mitigation is a steep learning curve though, as there is no Active Mitigation in the game that is a necessarily complex process. You're not going to be tanking Mythic, or even Heroic, bosses on your first time, but even a basic "Hit buttons that give resources, hit the AM button every time you get resources" is good enough to do any content that your average person is wanting to do, and if you are interested in tanking higher content, my assumption is that at that point you're interested in getting better, and you'd be able to find the resources and guides required to learn the other intricacies required. Even then, AM only approaches the complexity of a DPS rotation, it certainly doesn't eclipse it.

obviously the point is less relevant as you gear up compared to the tuning of the content you're doing, but the point still stands that for something to be dangerous to a tank class which is taking half (or less) damage of anyone else, that thing will often be almost instantly lethal to a non-tank class.

The only real scenario where a tank is taking "half or less" damage than another class is at the extreme ends of the spectrum. Yes, a tank is taking half or less damage than my mage, but they're sure not taking that compared to non-tank spec plate class. We regularly have our paladins/warriors tank the bosses for a couple of hits while we recover from mess ups, and the bosses don't melee you 2-5 times in a single global cooldown(except for rare, tankbusters, but if you're trying to claim that non-tanks should be able to survive tank-busters, all hope is lost for a reasonable conversation)

- - - Updated - - -

I get you like to press buttons. It makes you feel like you're doing something. You also think not pressing buttons is boring. Well I don't have ADHD, so I don't have that problem. I'm also aging well into my 40's, so spamming buttons isn't my ideal cup of tea any more either. If I played today, I'd probably be building towards passives and procs and play a class with the least button spam.

What APM would you consider "spamming buttons"? Cos pressing one button per second doesn't really seem like "spamming"

[Malkiah]

The only real scenario where a tank is taking "half or less" damage than another class is at the extreme ends of the spectrum. Yes, a tank is taking half or less damage than my mage, but they're sure not taking that compared to non-tank spec plate class. We regularly have our paladins/warriors tank the bosses for a couple of hits while we recover from mess ups, and the bosses don't melee you 2-5 times in a single global cooldown(except for rare, tankbusters, but if you're trying to claim that non-tanks should be able to survive tank-busters, all hope is lost for a reasonable conversation)

the only thing i'm saying is that for my personal preference, the paradigm currently of how much melee damage mobs do and to what extent non-tank classes can take some hits (exclusively referring to heroic raids or higher and say +6 keys or higher) is a bit skewed with regards to i feel an MMO should operate, and that IMO part of the reason for that is active mitigation means mobs get tuned higher to be dangerous relative to tanks with active mitigation active.
as i said in my first post, recovery opportunities are a window - that means they are there, i'd just personally like it if they were a little bit wider.

[Ereb]

I honestly don't get why you're so upset over an opinion on design. I guess I'm sorry for holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read my posts. Feel free to put me on ignore and save us both some braincells.

Yep, listen to nothing and default back to your factory settings with your original wrong opinion lol thats the way! I am 40+ years old as well don't use age as an excuse for you being bad at a video game. But you'd think for somebody who's been on this planet for that long would have figured out how to critically think along the way somewhere, but I digress...The only person here upset is you I'm sorry I didnt just accept your incorrect views on how the game works today and that my opinions about your wrong opinions made you feel bad. I will let you continue to live in your fantasy reality unchecked

"Those damn youngsters and their BUTTONS!!!" lmao

[Triceron]

Yep, listen to nothing and default back to your factory settings

You know you're doing the same thing, right?

But you'd think for somebody who's been on this planet for that long would have figured out how to critically think along the way somewhere, but I digress.

digress...The only person here upset is you

No, you're quite upset yourself

Why would you bother replying if you weren't? It's clear to me something bothers you deeply enough to care to tell me about my wrong opinions and inability to critically think.

I still accept your half assed apology. I believe you mean well, but are acting out saying foolish things for whatever reason. Like how you can't fathom someone ever tiring of pressing buttons, and have to tell them their opinion is wrong. Either way it's clear enough to me that none of this is actually about me. You haven't taken any moment to ask me about my opinions.

Like when I said my age, and you countered saying you are also the same age? Well guess what, your age has nothing to do with my opinion. My opinion is a reflection of how I feel I've changed now, as a person, compared to 10-20 yrs ago. It was not a statement of what happens to everyone of in their 40's, it is not an attack on you personally or how anyone would be acting at that age. I was explaining me. And you are the one who chose to cast judgement that the opinion is wrong. And I honestly don't see why. At this point I feel like If I said I like cats, you'd find a way to get offended and tell me how I'm wrong.

I know these problems you have with my opinions have nothing to do with me, or the opinion itself. You don't know me, nor would you ever gonna take the time to know me. All I am to you is some vague projection of what you chose to see. Maybe if you took some time to ask why i felt my age was an issue, I'd share my experiences and reasonings in a way that makes sense to you. I don't need to hide behind excuses here, I'm comfortable with who I am. I am doing my best to offer you perspective, nothing more nothing less. If that offends you, you can hit that ignore button any time.

Anyways, I hope I made a good scapegoat for whatever shit you're dealing with. Cheers

[Ereb]

You know you're doing the same thing, right?

The difference is my opinions are backed up by facts, experiences, and reality. Yours are gained from some streamer or youtuber that prolly doesn't even play the game either or just completely fabricated to fit preconceived notions. We are not the same lol

[Ghostile]

my issue with active mitigation isn't even with the thing itself, it's with the broader scope of what it represents in something that has been an increasing part of the group/raid design in wow: everything is implemented in such a way where it's either perfect execution = win, or it's mistake = fail, and there is a constantly shrinking window of opportunity for recovery within the design space.

so you have a raid boss... or an M+ boss, or even a trash mob, whatever, and the strength of its damage output is enough to kill a tank without outside healing.
ok so then you have tanks and their passive mitigation, and that is X% higher than not-tank passive mitigation, or even active mitigation.
but now you put active mitigation on top of that, and we loop back to the first line where mob damage output has to be enough to kill a tank who have active mitigation without outside healing, and that basically means it one-shots anything that isn't a tank with active mitigation.
so your tank dies, and that's just it... wipe. no opportunity for recovery, no window for having a mistake and overcoming it.

With the amount of clusterfucking in our raids I can assure you there is plenty of space for recovery.
And as for tank dying, theres a reason you use CRs smartly and dont just send them.

[Triceron]

The difference is my opinions are backed up by facts, experiences, and reality. Yours are gained from some streamer or youtuber that prolly doesn't even play the game either or just completely fabricated to fit preconceived notions. We are not the same lol

I don't watch any of that, so yeah you're still projecting. You're fabricating preconceived notions about me right now. No facts to prove anything you said about me

You are being just as hypocritical.

[Ereb]

You know you're doing the same thing, right?





No, you're quite upset yourself

Why would you bother replying if you weren't? It's clear to me something bothers you deeply enough to care to tell me about my wrong opinions and inability to critically think.

I still accept your half assed apology. I believe you mean well, but are acting out saying foolish things for whatever reason. Like how you can't fathom someone ever tiring of pressing buttons, and have to tell them their opinion is wrong. Either way it's clear enough to me that none of this is actually about me. You haven't taken any moment to ask me about my opinions.

Like when I said my age, and you countered saying you are also the same age? Well guess what, your age has nothing to do with my opinion. My opinion is a reflection of how I feel I've changed now, as a person, compared to 10-20 yrs ago. It was not a statement of what happens to everyone of in their 40's, it is not an attack on you personally or how anyone would be acting at that age. I was explaining me. And you are the one who chose to cast judgement that the opinion is wrong. And I honestly don't see why. At this point I feel like If I said I like cats, you'd find a way to get offended and tell me how I'm wrong.

I know these problems you have with my opinions have nothing to do with me, or the opinion itself. You don't know me, nor would you ever gonna take the time to know me. All I am to you is some vague projection of what you chose to see. Maybe if you took some time to ask why i felt my age was an issue, I'd share my experiences and reasonings in a way that makes sense to you. I don't need to hide behind excuses here, I'm comfortable with who I am. I am doing my best to offer you perspective, nothing more nothing less. If that offends you, you can hit that ignore button any time.

Anyways, I hope I made a good scapegoat for whatever shit you're dealing with. Cheers

Bro what is this? We are talking about a video game I don't need your life story. why are you trying so hard with every post to make this personal I couldn't give a shit less about you or your opinion. I called a spade a spade by calling out your uninformed bs opinion that was flat out wrong, and here we are because you got upset by it, understandably so since I don't really mince words. None of that is here nor there cuz like I said I couldn't care less.

Ya talked some dumb shit and I called it out that's it. If you want to talk about the video game again I'll be around to call out more BS, otherwise I'm not gonna partake in this weird blog derailing you are on about. Your ego is weirdly tied into knowledge about a video game you admit to not having even played for a decade lol

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the only thing i'm saying is that for my personal preference, the paradigm currently of how much melee damage mobs do and to what extent non-tank classes can take some hits (exclusively referring to heroic raids or higher and say +6 keys or higher) is a bit skewed with regards to i feel an MMO should operate, and that IMO part of the reason for that is active mitigation means mobs get tuned higher to be dangerous relative to tanks with active mitigation active.
as i said in my first post, recovery opportunities are a window - that means they are there, i'd just personally like it if they were a little bit wider.

It honestly sounds like you just have a gear issue from the way you speak. +6 keys are nothing in today's game if you have played enough to get any decent item level (and gear is literally thrown at us these days). If a +6 is giving your tank troubles you prolly need to get more gear I tanked +6s at the beginning of the season with freshly dinged alts.

[Malkiah]

It honestly sounds like you just have a gear issue from the way you speak. +6 keys are nothing in today's game if you have played enough to get any decent item level (and gear is literally thrown at us these days). If a +6 is giving your tank troubles you prolly need to get more gear I tanked +6s at the beginning of the season with freshly dinged alts.

sigh.
allow me take a moment to express my complete and utter surprise at the fact that somebody on mmo-champion completely ignored the entire point being made in order to pettily belittle someone for what seems to be purely the sake of self-aggrandizing posturing.

the key level doesn't matter, i specifically said it's relative to your gear level.
i don't have any issues with gear, nor do i have an issue with tanks dying, i just used that as an example of a situation where a recovery opportunity presents itself in the game.
the point is not the key level... pretend i said a 16 instead of a 6, pretend whatever you need to pretend to order to satisfy your ego so you can engage with the discussion and not just drive-by shit post to try to make yourself feel superior to me, jfc.

[Ereb]

sigh.
allow me take a moment to express my complete and utter surprise at the fact that somebody on mmo-champion completely ignored the entire point being made in order to pettily belittle someone for what seems to be purely the sake of self-aggrandizing posturing.

the key level doesn't matter, i specifically said it's relative to your gear level.
i don't have any issues with gear, nor do i have an issue with tanks dying, i just used that as an example of a situation where a recovery opportunity presents itself in the game.
the point is not the key level... pretend i said a 16 instead of a 6, pretend whatever you need to pretend to order to satisfy your ego so you can engage with the discussion and not just drive-by shit post to try to make yourself feel superior to me, jfc.

It was not my intention to try and belittle you I just don't see the issue being described tbh. and you said specifically "exclusively referring to heroic raids or higher and say +6 keys or higher" which is why I said what I said. What is your exact issue if I may? What do you mean by "recovery windows"? I have tanked 14's where I felt like I was 'behind' during a big pull with little to no defensives available at that time, I asked my healer for an external because it's a team game and we are playing together and everything was fine. If you make a mistake and take a back shot and dip way low randomly there are several tools available to both you and your healer to help recover from that I don't see what else you are wanting.

If I'm continuing to misunderstand pls by all means correct me more.

[Malkiah]

What is your exact issue if I may?

i don't have one.
the title of the thread is "what's your opinion on active mitigation" - this being a forum and me being a poster on it, i engaged with the thread by giving my opinion on active mitigation.

What do you mean by "recovery windows"?

so let's start with three assumptions, if you disagree with any of these three points then we're already on a different page on how we view the game:
1. it can generally be qualified that a given tier of difficulty has an ilevel range it is intended for, and if you're under that ilevel the content is going to be harder, and if you're over that ilevel the content is going to be easier.

2. provided that you're operating within a range where you're not overgearing so much it's effortless (ie, you're roughly the ilevel for which the content is designed to be challenging) there will naturally be fluctuations in a group's game play - even among friends who work well together, much less random pugs with no knowledge of each other or any real communication - some pulls go well, some go bad. mistakes get made, and there's a moment that occurs where the group dying is a possibility.
(note: i'm talking specifically about a stumble here, not a big fuckup where the entire group dies instantly or if not instantly there is no chance to recover, i mean very narrowly when things go bad but you can turn it around if you play your cards right)
generally speaking, only a tank or a healer dying really causes these incidents because a dps dying rarely has any kind of direct impact on a group's survivability so we can discuss this purely in terms of what happens when a tank or healer dies.

3. when that moment occurs there is a window of opportunity - a frame of time wherein the right actions can halt the failure, where you can recover from a bad turn.
brezzing, kiting, off-tanking, CDs, etc etc... used in these moments these are all examples of utilizing tools at your disposal in that window of opportunity.
generally speaking, these windows are only a handful of seconds at most.
for example, if a tank goes down you have seconds for the necessary people to react appropriately in order to turn the stumble into a recovery instead of the stumble being a wipe.
(note: i'm talking about the reaction time here, i'm not saying you only have seconds to do all the things needed to recover, i'm saying in "current" content you usually only have a few seconds to start responding to the stumble before it's too late)

so those are 3 assumptions about how the game operates, if you disagree with any of those stop reading now because i'm going to form a conclusion based on the agreement these 3 assumptions are generally accurate.
the window of opportunity has been shrinking over the years in wow, and my observation as to why that window has been shrinking is at least partly due to the fact that relative to player's Effective Health (are you familiar with this term? it's an older MMO slang, i don't know if it's still a known thing), mobs are doing more damage than they used to at an equivalent tier of content difficulty.
to me it seems quite logical to conclude that tanks having increased mitigation over the years is why mobs are hitting harder - it doesn't seem a huge stretch to me to assume that if you give tanks more ways to take less damage, then to maintain a consistent level of threat to their survivability mobs need to do more damage.
non-tanks have not received a commensurate increase in ways to take less damage, meaning that relatively speaking a non-tank takes more damage now than they did 10-15 years ago.
with me so far?

the conclusion to this line of thinking is that mobs hitting harder means they kill people faster, which makes the windows of opportunity smaller.
not non-existent, not unreasonable, not impossible, just smaller.
i happen to think that right now in the game those windows are a little bit too small. not unreasonably, not impossibly, just a bit smaller than i think it would feel right for them to be.
the most direct way i can think of for that window to get bigger would be (simply, and IMO obviously) for non-tanks to not get hit so hard relative to tanks, so that if a tank dies there's maybe just a couple extra seconds to react, for example. i don't mean to keep bringing up tanks dying, that isn't a specific problem i have, it's just the most direct and obvious example of the concept i'm trying to convey.
but for non-tanks to not get hit so hard relative to tanks would require either non-tanks get more passive and active mitigation tools which i don't think they need and would also fuck up balance for solo and PvP, OR for tanks to not mitigate better than non-tanks to the extent that they do currently in game.
how could you make it so tanks don't mitigate better than non-tanks to the extent they do currently in game? welp.... removing active mitigation would a pretty obvious and simple way.
and thus we come full circle...
my opinion on active mitigation isn't about AM itself, it's that i feel it contributes to the narrowing of the window of opportunity that has been happening in the game for the last decade or so.

[Ghostile]

snip

But currently the window of recovery is bigger than it has ever been.
If your tank dies, someone pops an AOE stun or kites the mobs while the tank is being combat ressed.
The further you go back the faster the dps has died after tank death.

Now, one could argue the window is smaller for unorganized groups, but that just makes sense imo.

[Malkiah]

But currently the window of recovery is bigger than it has ever been.

The further you go back the faster the dps has died after tank death.

so i'm not going to say you're wrong, but i will say that i have a different memory of how things used to be.
though i suppose it should be clarified what "used to be" means, this game is 20 years old and i doubt we've been playing it for exactly the same amount of time.

i started playing wow around when the ulduar patch came out - i don't remember when i started playing specifically, but i do remember the ulduar patch notes were the first major patch notes released after i started.
excepting for the period during early cata with the dungeon difficulty riots, my recollection of dungeons from WOTLK in the ICC era through cata and mop and wod is that you could get aggro for a brief time before you died during a trash pull. not very long, but if you were a dps and your tank wasn't generating enough threat it was possible to pull aggro, see it, and stop dpsing long enough for them to get it back, just as an example.
now obviously there's about 500 reasons why M+ of today is different from the keyboard roll rofl dungeons of WOTLK, but i think some equivalence can be drawn at least in comparing what was the top end single group content then vs. top end single group content now.

maybe i'm misremembering. maybe i'm getting old and my memories are getting fuzzy and i'm blurring everquest and wow together. hell, maybe my age-addled brain is trying to apply standards from one game to the other game, like i said up top i'm not saying you're wrong... i just remember things differently from what you're saying.

Now, one could argue the window is smaller for unorganized groups, but that just makes sense imo.

three things:
1. well yes, obviously.
2. i am talking strictly about unorganized groups because i do not play with friends or guild mates or a crew or whatever in wow, i am a 100% pug player who does zero organized content.
3. i don't think that distinction matters to my thoughts on the issue, excepting that it might kind of reinforce my perspective.