Blizzard: "Addons shouldn't make a difference in how good a player is"

[Z3ROR]

In the new WoWCast (click here) Ion Hazzikostas mentioned, from 8min-9min, that he likes to see a WoW where addons no longer makes a difference between a good or a better player.

What do you all think about that?

[Ghostile]

That definitely makes sense in pvp.
In PvE there is the question, when do we arrive at the "I can't play without addons so this should be easier"?

[agentsi]

There is currently no situation where you could raid Mythic without addon's, at least IMO.

I would personally love to see a no-addon world first race, as that would truly be impressive.

[kranur]

In the new WoWCast (click here) Ion Hazzikostas mentioned, from 8min-9min, that he likes to see a WoW where addons no longer makes a difference between a good or a better player.

What do you all think about that?

Ideally, that should be the case. In reality, it makes an incresible difference, simoly because the stock UI customizations are very limited.
Then we have the boss mods, that are basically making deicisions in some cases.

[Ghostile]

There is currently no situation where you could raid Mythic without addon's, at least IMO.

You can definitely mythic raid, but getting into the top percentages is out of the question.

[Wyrt]

It's a nice idea, but the cooldown tracker is so bad it's unusable. I don't have high hopes for Blizzard's built in DBM.

I think the 1 button rotation thing is absurd though.

[agentsi]

You can definitely mythic raid, but getting into the top percentages is out of the question.

Let's take a step back here for a moment. Do you really think it's possible to raid Mythic right now, LoU, without any add-ons?

Sprocketmonger, just as one example, has 4 bombs each cycle that can only be blown up by the same color charge. Extremely hard to tell which one they are without addons, and which one you're assigned to during each cycle. Long, or short.

There aren't enough audio or visual queues to let the players know every single mechanic that is happening, outside of debuffs your player gets.

Is it possible, maybe, but I would bet money it would take 2-3 times longer to clear without any addons at all. And would be a very interesting challenge to see Blizzard pull off.

[Osmeric]

It's a nice idea, but the cooldown tracker is so bad it's unusable. I don't have high hopes for Blizzard's built in DBM.

I think the 1 button rotation thing is absurd though.

It's truly absurd. He never mentions the actual problem: the rotations have become way too complicated.

[Twdft]

As a heroic raider I find the fights themselves do have pretty much enough visual/audio cues to be solvable without dbm/bigwigs. Blizzard really got better over the years. Most of the abilities are not that time sensitive on heroic (at least for me as dps) that I would need a precise bar for them.

But.. the way de/buffs are presented is still after 20 years atrociously bad. The new cooldown manager is a step in the right direction, needs to be a lot more customizable. Debuff display is utterly useless though.

If Blizzard wants to take away addons they have to invest some serious dev power to provide usable standard alternatives.

[Wyrt]

It's truly absurd. He never mentions the actual problem: the rotations have become way too complicated.

No they aren't. There are simple ones like ret paladin and BM hunter and more complex ones like enhance shaman or affliction lock with a lot of variation in between. As it should be. Every spec being simplified into ret paladin would suck.

[Obbi87]

the one button spell is not the problem, its cool for all the casuals. the problem with that video was the 3 dudes, the 3 destroyes of the game. They keep making the game around the 1%, and say screw the casuals, the BREAD AND BUTTER Of the game, the most people paying. But its the games doom sadly. Easier is better for most.

[Big Thanks]

In the new WoWCast (click here) Ion Hazzikostas mentioned, from 8min-9min, that he likes to see a WoW where addons no longer makes a difference between a good or a better player.

What do you all think about that?

I think is bullcrap

In this situation you NEED to either go "all the way" and ban all addons OR literally do nothing OR design a game that doesnt need addons for PvE endgame.

I am of the opinion addons should stay because otherwise my VERY IMPORTANT underrated addons will be lost forever...and i cant live without them.
Example:
Sweepyboop's PvP Helper

Just...

Help the new players...make the game playable without addons without it being frustrating...BUT...dont waste resources on implementing this addons to standard UI unless is justified...
Since addons are never going away, dont bother.

[Aggressive]

No they aren't. There are simple ones like ret paladin and BM hunter and more complex ones like enhance shaman or affliction lock with a lot of variation in between. As it should be. Every spec being simplified into ret paladin would suck.

And every spec being complex sucks as well. So where does the line become drawn that says what class and what spec should be complex and what should be simplified.

[Ghostile]

the one button spell is not the problem, its cool for all the casuals. the problem with that video was the 3 dudes, the 3 destroyes of the game. They keep making the game around the 1%, and say screw the casuals, the BREAD AND BUTTER Of the game, the most people paying. But its the games doom sadly. Easier is better for most.

I can't get my head around this "tHeY maKe thE gAEm foR tOp 1%" argument.
I don't even raid in world top 1000 anymore and I don't feel like the game is being made just the very top in mind.

I'm happily parsing in the 50% area with my UH offspec despite having no fucking idea how the spec actually works besides build -> dump repeat.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's take a step back here for a moment. Do you really think it's possible to raid Mythic right now, LoU, without any add-ons?

Sprocketmonger, just as one example, has 4 bombs each cycle that can only be blown up by the same color charge. Extremely hard to tell which one they are without addons, and which one you're assigned to during each cycle. Long, or short.

There aren't enough audio or visual queues to let the players know every single mechanic that is happening, outside of debuffs your player gets.

Is it possible, maybe, but I would bet money it would take 2-3 times longer to clear without any addons at all. And would be a very interesting challenge to see Blizzard pull off.

Sprocketmonger not being the first boss of the raid makes it possible to raid mythic without addons, but prevents you from ever reaching the top percentages.

[Wyrt]

And every spec being complex sucks as well. So where does the line become drawn that says what class and what spec should be complex and what should be simplified.

But they aren't all complex. There's a wide variety currently. Which is how the game should be.

[loras]

In the new WoWCast (click here) Ion Hazzikostas mentioned, from 8min-9min, that he likes to see a WoW where addons no longer makes a difference between a good or a better player.

What do you all think about that?

Agreed, addons that affect effectivity undermine the idea of a level playing field, thus undermining the point and credibility of all competition.

That said they should not limit addons much either, as they are a good way to fill in the gaps Blizzard cannot or will not.


In regards to predictive PvE addons i find myself believing that they should add an in-game in-universe way to make sense of that.

We're already maw walkers, chosens of azeroth, wielders of legends and all that, even if it has been dialled back somewhat, so to me it makes sense to just use some excuse to formalise the obvious predictive prescience our characters have that allows them to succeed against the odds by allowing us to know where and when what will happen, and to anticipate it.

[misternoxxnoxx]

The whole anti-addon crowd is just asinine logic. It's the equivalent to driving a car or flying a plane with absolutely no HUD information in front of you. Can it be done? Sure. Should it done that way? No. One should have all relevant information and data tracking in their HUD to be able to make tactical decisions in the moment, planning ahead etc. Knee jerk reactions from not really knowing what's going is never the best way to achieve anything. Knowledge is power after all.

If you've got some weird vendetta against having relevant data on screen to monitor what's going on, and like being essentially blind to a lot of things happening to your raid mates, then you do you I guess. But there is nothing fundamentally wrong about having addons to provide data so you can make informed decisions. The base WoW interface provides incredibly insufficient information about basic things, let alone more advanced data.

Addons alone don't suddenly make a bad player good, they simply help make good players better, if they can utilise the data correctly. No matter how great you may be at running no addons, you'll always be better when equipped with better tools. Kinda like how the Razer Naga made me become more efficient at playing melee classes.

[Azerothian Explorer]

It's truly absurd. He never mentions the actual problem: the rotations have become way too complicated.

There was a time where they debloated classes. Then in Shadowlands with the covenant abilities it started to get awful again. People hated the point per level talents for having cookie cutter options. They switched to the three choice talents in mist. Then in Dragonflight merged all the random abilities from covenants and torghast into a fucking mess of a talent system.

Apparently they realize that it's too convoluted, when they need to implement a stolen idea from an addon to teach you how to play.

Just redesign the classes to have a handful of core abilities. Forget talents and hero talents. That would make it easier for them to balance, too. They practically redo the classes each patch with them experimenting with trinkets and tier set bonuses.

- - - Updated - - -

The whole anti-addon crowd is just asinine logic. It's the equivalent to driving a car or flying a plane with absolutely no HUD information in front of you. Can it be done? Sure. Should it done that way? No. One should have all relevant information and data tracking in their HUD to be able to make tactical decisions in the moment, planning ahead etc. Knee jerk reactions from not really knowing what's going is never the best way to achieve anything. Knowledge is power after all.

If you've got some weird vendetta against having relevant data on screen to monitor what's going on, and like being essentially blind to a lot of things happening to your raid mates, then you do you I guess. But there is nothing fundamentally wrong about having addons to provide data so you can make informed decisions. The base WoW interface provides incredibly insufficient information about basic things, let alone more advanced data.

Addons alone don't suddenly make a bad player good, they simply help make good players better, if they can utilise the data correctly. No matter how great you may be at running no addons, you'll always be better when equipped with better tools. Kinda like how the Razer Naga made me become more efficient at playing melee classes.

The difference is operating a vehicle is a matter of safety, playing games is not.

[Obbi87]

I can't get my head around this "tHeY maKe thE gAEm foR tOp 1%" argument.
I don't even raid in world top 1000 anymore and I don't feel like the game is being made just the very top in mind.

I'm happily parsing in the 50% area with my UH offspec despite having no fucking idea how the spec actually works besides build -> dump repeat.

- - - Updated - - -



Sprocketmonger not being the first boss of the raid makes it possible to raid mythic without addons, but prevents you from ever reaching the top percentages.

You just used the word. "parsing". most people dont care about that, but are forced to do so.

Also, all the cool stuff are locked behind the super hard content, why i say screw the 99%. casuals want to get cool tmog for one. Its locked by a massiv gate, that only 1% do.

Why the game were more fun for more, when it was N-HC. Would even go so far and say, the game would be better with LFR.-N -HC

[SL1200]

I always wanted a roatation bot but was afraid to risk a ban. They're adding it to the game, fucking amazing. I alays thought it'd be nice if when I was forced to move a lot i could just hold a button to make the rotation happen while i focus on what i need to doge, soak or whatever. I'm not even ashamed to admit that i'm going to use this.