Blizzard: "Addons shouldn't make a difference in how good a player is"

[Wyrt]

I think there should be some mid-line here.
Imho a complexity of a spec (or the inverse) shouldn't force or exclude a player to play only specs that they don't enjoy, being easier or harder.
Imho a decent solution could be 3 talents that change a little the play stile, with one making It easier, on in the middle and one harder / faster.
It will not be perfect, and a Little unbalanced in terms of performance (but balancing issues always happen) but It could be a decent way to make some classes / specs more "friendly" for peoples that enjoy them even if they have to accept some give-and-take

You already have things like that.

A shadow priest for example can use Dark Ascension over Void Eruption which makes it a lot easier, and is actually the more optimal choice at the moment. They can also take Mind Flay over Mind Spike which are virtually the same damage wise with Mind Flay being easier.

[Jastall]

I agree - class rotations are the least of their concerns when it comes to game complexity. I feel like Blizzard is tackling the wrong problem.

As an example, try explaining to a new player that axe toss should be used to interrupt a spell, except if it's a spammable unimportant-looking spell, except if the cast bar has a shield and is uninterruptible, unless the enemy is susceptible to stun, which is most non-elites and sometimes elites, but that's a stun instead of an interrupt so it's technically different, and axe toss is an interrupt AND a stun...

It takes forever to sort all of those concepts out, and there are thousands of examples of what you could call design debt like that a player has to learn over time. That's in addition to other asinine decisions like purple AoE on purple ground that not even addons will save you from, or when a quest puts an item in your bag vs. the extra action button, or when currencies are in the currency tab or sitting in your inventory for 20 years... I could go on.

They're absolutely going about this the wrong way. Internalizing all of that addon work, which is currently distributed across many volunteer community developers, increases the work load for Blizzard and might indicate that they want to cement awful design choices such as DBM/WA barking audio cues at you every second.

What they SHOULD be doing is finding ways to streamline fight cues/UI, reducing some of the design complexity, and disable addons that are surrogates for combat awareness once they've learned how to properly telegraph fight mechanics. I can't even watch anyone play high end Mythic+ because it's 20 sound effects firing off non-stop -- honest to God, I don't know how anyone enjoys that.

Yes. Class bloat/complexity isn't a big problem outside of some outliers, and should be solved more on a case by case basis.

A much bigger problem is that, over the years, there's an absolute shit ton of gameplay conventions that have accumulated in the game, and Blizzard hardly communicates them at all when you level up because it's effortless. You don't need to learn about interrupts, CC, diminishing returns on stuns and co., LoSing mechanics, how dispels work, not pulling aggro, and far more besides. I can't begin the imagine the trials and tribulations of a new-ish player who levels up, doesn't quit because they found the game a snoozefest, queues for a few rando Heroics that run themselves, then gets thrown into the rather harsh environment of Normal raids and early M+.

I feel like Delves would be a decent place to teach those concepts in a controlled, single-player environment. It certainly helps me get the max level ones early in a season. But again, leveling delves don't pose any resistance so the player doesn't have to do anything smart, just push buttons and collect loot.

As well, raids in particular could definitely be made to telegraph mechanics better for cleaner design than "read the dungeon journal and figure out what wipes you afterwards, maybe get a bunch of weakauras to simplify mechanics for you as well". M+ is trickier, because it's your choice to pull 5 packs at once and have an undecipherable mess happen on screen. It's not your choice to have a raid fight with obtuse mechanics you learn by reading about (or having them mostly handled by someone else making an addon) rather than experiencing.

[Soon-TM]

As always, Ion correctly identifies one of the biggest issues with the game currently, only to come with pretty much the worst conceivable "solution". Oh well...

[Ghostile]

As always, Ion correctly identifies one of the biggest issues with the game currently, only to come with pretty much the worst conceivable "solution". Oh well...

I mean, he can make people read the rotation but he can't make them learn it.
That's an out of game issue.

[Wyrt]

As always, Ion correctly identifies one of the biggest issues with the game currently, only to come with pretty much the worst conceivable "solution". Oh well...

It's the only reasonable solution. We already have specs with simple rotations and specs with more complex rotations. The only way to get simpler than a BM hunter or a ret paladin or a fury warrior is to just make it 1 button.

[Glorious Leader]

It's the only reasonable solution. We already have specs with simple rotations and specs with more complex rotations. The only way to get simpler than a BM hunter or a ret paladin or a fury warrior is to just make it 1 button.

Its a band aid that fails address the cause. This is by no means reasonable. You only consider it reasonable because it maintains what you love about the game. It iobjectivetly fails to address the underlying issue. Like treating cancer symptons but not the actual cancer itself.

[Wyrt]

Its a band aid that fails address the cause. This is by no means reasonable. You only consider it reasonable because it maintains what you love about the game. It iobjectivetly fails to address the underlying issue. Like treating cancer symptons but not the actual cancer itself.

The underlying issue is some players struggle to count past 5. You can't fix that.

[Glorious Leader]

The underlying issue is some players struggle to count past 5. You can't fix that.

Those players can count to 15 dollars though. Same as you.I mean even the developers said shit was too complex. Your fucking gods, the ones that made that leet skill game you beat off to have said its a bit much. Literally not disputing it just the offered solution and then small penis forum guys who derive their self worth from their master(bation)y of the game (a.k.a "Skill Expression)DENY the problem.

[Ghostile]

Those players can count to 15 dollars though. Same as you.I mean even the developers said shit was too complex. Your fucking gods, the ones that made that leet skill game you beat off to have said its a bit much. Literally not disputing it just the offered solution and then small penis forum guys who derive their self worth from their master(bation)y of the game (a.k.a "Skill Expression)DENY the problem.

It's wild how people have been explaining the rotations over and over again in this thread and still you are desperately trying to dig this pity pit for yourself to wallow in because the big bad elite players are the reason you can't play the game on top level.

[Ereb]

Those players can count to 15 dollars though. Same as you.I mean even the developers said shit was too complex. Your fucking gods, the ones that made that leet skill game you beat off to have said its a bit much. Literally not disputing it just the offered solution and then small penis forum guys who derive their self worth from their master(bation)y of the game (a.k.a "Skill Expression)DENY the problem.

It's crazy how world of warcraft is just too hard for you. lol, lmao even.

"No child left behind" in full swing right now

[Glorious Leader]

It's wild how people have been explaining the rotations over and over again in this thread and still you are desperately trying to dig this pity pit for yourself to wallow in because the big bad elite players are the reason you can't play the game on top level.

Unfortunately your denial of the basic problem is sadly expected. Enjoy your "skill expression"

[Ghostile]

Unfortunately your denial of the basic problem is sadly expected. Enjoy your "skill expression"

Which part of my replies where I have explained I play the simple builds are you struggling with?

[Wyrt]

Those players can count to 15 dollars though. Same as you.I mean even the developers said shit was too complex. Your fucking gods, the ones that made that leet skill game you beat off to have said its a bit much. Literally not disputing it just the offered solution and then small penis forum guys who derive their self worth from their master(bation)y of the game (a.k.a "Skill Expression)DENY the problem.

There are plenty of really simple specs for people who can't count. There's no reason to dumb every spec down to being ret.

[Osmeric]

There are plenty of really simple specs for people who can't count. There's no reason to dumb every spec down to being ret.

If the devs (or the management above them) have detected sufficient levels of customer loss over the issue, then that is reason enough to change things, even if you vainly think those customers "should" have behaved as you wished they would.

That they are doing this at all, as I have noted, is interesting data, indicating something is up. I don't think they'd have done something as contrary to their inclinations as a one-button rotation without being pushed. I suspect it's not going to achieve what they want it to, but we'll see.

[Relapses]

If the devs (or the management above them) have detected sufficient levels of customer loss over the issue, then that is reason enough to change things, even if you vainly think those customers "should" have behaved as you wished they would.

That they are doing this at all, as I have noted, is interesting data, indicating something is up. I don't think they'd have done something as contrary to their inclinations as a one-button rotation without being pushed. I suspect it's not going to achieve what they want it to, but we'll see.

Do you really think that there was a significant portion of the playerbase that was asking for one-button rotations? GSE wasn't a terribly popular add-on; Hekili was. I think Blizzard just thought to themselves that if they're gonna incorporate Hekili, they may as well throw GSE in with it. Whether that's the result of "player feedback," or just Blizzard wanting to one-up themselves is anybody's guess.

[Caprias]

Unfortunately your denial of the basic problem is sadly expected. Enjoy your "skill expression"

Skill expression is a great thing, fantastic even, old Blizzard was praised for "easy to learn, hard to master", giving games depth makes them better.

The problem is that a decent amount of that skill expression and depth at a high level environment has been about creating, setting up and getting acquainted with addons/weak auras, this is very unique to WoW and because it's arguably going on for over a decade the game design has decently shaped around it (at a high level!).
For example, setting up ovinax or even the sprocketmonger and stix WAs up this tier is just something my guild would rather... just not need to do.

--Would bosses be simpler, give you slightly more reaction time and have to be better telegraphed if boss mods weren't a thing? probably.
--Is tracking your teammates interrupts and offensive/defensive cds to the millisecond kind of ridiculous and not possible even with voice comms to that precision? yup.
--I don't even think I have to make a point about how stupid in combat logic solving WAs are, but they've shown again and again that they're needed because 1-2~(mythic) bosses each tier just have a ridiculous mechanic with a huge failure rate if you tried to "yolo" solve it.
--Would class designs be slower paced and less intricate nowadays if you wouldn't have WA class packs (or WAs in general) and plater for optimal tracking/awareness, giving Blizzard the need to improve and provide those themselves? (something like FF14 job gauges) also probably yeah.

All these things shouldn't be a factor in "skill expression" and there is no comparable other popular online game where they are, yet they've been for arguably over a decade because Blizzard has been very slow and lazy updating their UI.

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There are plenty of really simple specs for people who can't count. There's no reason to dumb every spec down to being ret.

Great example.
I love arcane mage since the shadowlands iteration even with it's stupid a.barrage conditions (not so bad now but last season.. lol)

Still, I would not touch that spec without addons/WAs.

[Daronokk]

In the new WoWCast (click here) Ion Hazzikostas mentioned, from 8min-9min, that he likes to see a WoW where addons no longer makes a difference between a good or a better player.

What do you all think about that?

If you're using a lot of addons you're not a better player, you're factually a worse player by letting the game do things for you instead of your own input and focus.

I've never understood people complaining about the game being easy while at the same time have all these addons running that calculate and direct the player to avoid certain effects, etc. If you like a challenge just play without, it's certainly possible and if you ask me adds to the enjoyment.

Raiding addons are toxic garbage and only feed elitists pricks' ego while gatekeeping more casual players.

[Ghostile]

Raiding addons are toxic garbage and only feed elitists pricks' ego while gatekeeping more casual players.

Considering you can get few bosses into mythic before you run into a boss where an addon helps you by making your buff color easier to see, what exactly are they gatekeeping?
Would more casual players be deep into mythic without them, despite the fact they aren't even near with them?

[Ereb]

If you're using a lot of addons you're not a better player, you're factually a worse player by letting the game do things for you instead of your own input and focus.

I've never understood people complaining about the game being easy while at the same time have all these addons running that calculate and direct the player to avoid certain effects, etc. If you like a challenge just play without, it's certainly possible and if you ask me adds to the enjoyment.

Raiding addons are toxic garbage and only feed elitists pricks' ego while gatekeeping more casual players.

This just reads like somebody who doesn't really play the game, but has gathered all his opinions from other people, who prolly also don't play the game

I promise you addons are not the reason you can't raid mythic lol

[Ashana Darkmoon]

It's the only reasonable solution. We already have specs with simple rotations and specs with more complex rotations. The only way to get simpler than a BM hunter or a ret paladin or a fury warrior is to just make it 1 button.

As I said before, I think it is kind of a best of bad options problem. You can't gut the game to super simplicity without deleting most of what makes it popular and special (particularly on streaming platforms), but you can't leave it alone without making it impenetrable to a lot of players. So we'll get this instead.

If people aren't familiar, another example of this in another game is the Oakensoul Ring in ESO. Without going into the weeds, it is an item they added to essentially "raise the floor" for casual players without having to fundamentally change the game's basic combat mechanics. You had a situation far worse than in wow where people with the same gear would literally do an order of magnitude more DPS than other players. But with this ring, it both shaves off half the buttons (from 12 to 6) and gives a player nearly every buff in the game passively, meaning they can use almost any skills and be reasonably effective.

This was also super controversial in ESO when it came out! But they've kept it so that it is not the best DPS option in difficult content, and basically no elite players use it. Yet it is a huge boost to more casual players who just want to do world content and solo.

To me, this is a similar goal to the rotation helper