Blizzard: "Addons shouldn't make a difference in how good a player is"

[Ghostile]

There should be a range of complexity options in different classes. There's never going to be a 1 size fits all solution to complexity.

Momentum DH was a great example of this.
If you wanted to flex on nerds by showing you can run a momentum DH you could, but if you were a normal person you could just opt out and be happy.

[Beuargh]

There's never going to be a 1 size fits all solution to complexity.

and here comes the 1 button macro. .... you can pick dark ascension or void eruption, everything will be under the same button anyway. it's not about complexity anymore.

[Rageonit]

I see:
1. Vampiric Touch
2. Devouring Plague
3. Mind Blast
4. Mind Flay
5. Shadow Word: Death
6. Shadow Word: Pain
7. Shadowfiend

1. Vampiric Touch
2. Shadowfiend
3. Dark Ascension
4. Power Infusion
5. Shadow Word: Death
6. Mind/Void Blast
7. Void Torrent
8. Devouring Plague
9. Mind Spike

Modern rotation has 2 extra abilities in it. 1 is a 1 minute cooldown and another is a 2 minute cooldown. So what exactly are we pruning? What's the proper number of abilities in a rotation? Are things with 1 or 2 minute long cooldowns really part of a rotation?




They have a very comparable number of abilities.

The difference is not in the number of abilities, but in the number of various buffs and procs that affect your rotation. WotLK didn't have that, so it was more straightforward. Modern WoW is more like: use this ability, but if A procced, use this ability insteady, but if buff B is about to run out, refresh it instead, etc. etc.

It's not the number of abilities that has to be pruned; it's the number of different buffs and procs you have to constantly track (and react to them).

For example when I play enhance in m+, I need to track, at all times:
1) number of Malestrom stacks
2) Surging Totem duration
3) Hot Hand buff
4) Legacy of the Frost Witch buff
5) Crash Lightning buff
...and my rotation will change based on the state of each and every of those, plus a few other things, too (CDs being available or not, trinkets, etc. etc.).

[Wyrt]

The difference is not in the number of abilities, but in the number of various buffs and procs that affect your rotation. WotLK didn't have that, so it was more straightforward. Modern WoW is more like: use this ability, but if A procced, use this ability insteady, but if buff B is about to run out, refresh it instead, etc. etc.

It's not the number of abilities that has to be pruned; it's the number of different buffs and procs you have to constantly track (and react to them).

If it's not the number of abilities then why are people constantly asking for massive ability pruning? Like the person I was replying to wanted to cut player abilities in half.

[Rageonit]

If it's not the number of abilities then why are people constantly asking for massive ability pruning? Like the person I was replying to wanted to cut player abilities in half.

There's always personal preference and some people will want 3 button rotations. I'm just saying that the modern WoW rotation is not complex because of the number of abilities you click, but because of the number of procs and buffs you need to track and react to. Imagine there are no procs and short duration buffs, and your rotation is, I don't know, 8 abilities - but you always click them in the same sequence. Would that be overly difficult to learn?

[Biomega]

The arguments about the game being too complex might actually work better if people stopped coming up with "OOH 30 BUTTON ROTATIONS!"

And it'd also be nice if people considered that key bindings in general are a problem, and it's not just PURELY rotational abilities. Because "why are you complaining, your rotation is only 10 buttons, not 30! Those other 20 are cooldowns, potions, defensives, reactive abilities, items, trinkets, utility abilities, and so on TOTALLY NOT A PROBLEM to have that many buttons to bind because everything exclusively and directly ROTATIONAL fits on one row" doesn't exactly make for a compelling rebuttal, either.

I used to have number keys 1-4 bound, plus shift, alt, and ctrl modifiers. That was my core binding set. That's 16 keys. Plus extra mouse buttons, we get to 20 immediately accessible bindings. It wasn't NEARLY enough even discounting things like situational macros for higher-end stuff. 30 is by no means an exaggeration.

And I hope your response to that is not "well don't bind potions or trinkets or CC just click them all!", because that would be seriously missing the point.

I'm by no means suggesting WoW is doing "console prep" like some people are speculating, but at least the constraints of console controls force people to rethink complexity. And WoW seriously needs to rethink its complexity.

[meheez]

Addon knowledge and setup was always part of "skill" for me. Just like any other knowledge ingame. There could be improvements ofc, just don't wanna see them removing the ability for developers or gamers to create stuff.

[Just Passing through]

But they aren't all complex. There's a wide variety currently. Which is how the game should be.

I won't disagree here. But we already see different preferences. I am a big fan of passives (which also goes for trinkets). Lets take the prot Pally rotation - which I can comfortably fit for my needs on my keybinds. As a Prot Warrior, I still can fit my rotation on the keybinds, but there is so much extra stuff that I would need to click. And if my luck only gives me trinkets that I need to activate, it is extra buttons.

In addition to WASD, I use 1,2,3, shift 1,2,3, F, F2, middle mouse, shift middle mouse, front mouse, shift front mouse, back mouse, shift back mouse, right, left thumb button and the shift modifier. Not counting WASD that is 23 keys

Shield Wall, Last stand, Hamstring, Intimidating shout, challenging shout, Rallying cry and even Heroic Throw are not bound...some of you Prot Warriors might be shocked, but that works for me and the content I do.

I guess you could suggest that I teach myself to also use the ALT modifier or tweak my talents to get rid of some crap - but do you guys REALLY think the game or a specc is more interesting with around 30 abilities? Playing my warrior as fury feels much better.

Or in short, so you understand where I come from: To me, Vengeance DH have the perfect amount of abilities for my playstyle. Havoc could use 2-3 more, it feel "empty"

Ret feels good - as does Unholy, Blood, Arms....even Affliction lock. Struggling with Shadow Priests and Enhance shamans...but that could be because I rarely play them.

At the end of the day, I would however also NOT want to play with mashing just one button

I'm by no means suggesting WoW is doing "console prep" like some people are speculating, but at least the constraints of console controls force people to rethink complexity. And WoW seriously needs to rethink its complexity.

Just noticed that with the other things you posted, you took the words out of my mouth. And I also dare to agree with you here - at the same time prepared for somebody to come in and claim how WoW is not complex (compared to "insert crazily difficult game here") and that I should go play Candy crush or so if I cannot handle current WoW

[Rageonit]

I won't disagree here. But we already see different preferences. I am a big fan of passives (which also goes for trinkets). Lets take the prot Pally rotation - which I can comfortably fit for my needs on my keybinds. As a Prot Warrior, I still can fit my rotation on the keybinds, but there is so much extra stuff that I would need to click. And if my luck only gives me trinkets that I need to activate, it is extra buttons.

In addition to WASD, I use 1,2,3, shift 1,2,3, F, F2, middle mouse, shift middle mouse, front mouse, shift front mouse, back mouse, shift back mouse, right, left thumb button and the shift modifier. Not counting WASD that is 23 keys

Shield Wall, Last stand, Hamstring, Intimidating shout, challenging shout, Rallying cry and even Heroic Throw are not bound...some of you Prot Warriors might be shocked, but that works for me and the content I do.

I guess you could suggest that I teach myself to also use the ALT modifier or tweak my talents to get rid of some crap - but do you guys REALLY think the game or a specc is more interesting with around 30 abilities? Playing my warrior as fury feels much better.

Or in short, so you understand where I come from: To me, Vengeance DH have the perfect amount of abilities for my playstyle. Havoc could use 2-3 more, it feel "empty"

At the end of the day, I would however also NOT want to play with mashing just one button

But you're not talking rotation anymore, you're talking the whole toolkit. I don't know, I like to have extra abilities for special occasions; it feels fun and useful to soothe a mob, purge a buff, AoE stun a pack, etc. etc. Especially in a situation where the game is somewhat well balanced and you come to a point where players think: okay, both of those specs do comparable damage, but THAT spec can also do this and this and this. What's the solution to that? Making the game easier mechanically overall, by completely pruning things like those purges and AoE stuns, and make it all about DPSing and an occasional interrupt?

[WowIsDead64]

I can't wait to hear what signs of panicking we're seeing.

When devs lose players and don't know what to do to retain them - they usually start to do weird things.

[Ghostile]

When devs lose players and don't know what to do to retain them - they usually start to do weird things.

So, what are these weird things and where can we observe devs losing players?

- - - Updated - - -

And WoW seriously needs to rethink its complexity.

I repeat, 3 button core rotation.
Just by not capping runic and keeping wounds up while sending all cooldowns when they are open you do decent dps as UH.
How do you simplify that?

[Wyrt]

I won't disagree here. But we already see different preferences. I am a big fan of passives (which also goes for trinkets). Lets take the prot Pally rotation - which I can comfortably fit for my needs on my keybinds. As a Prot Warrior, I still can fit my rotation on the keybinds, but there is so much extra stuff that I would need to click. And if my luck only gives me trinkets that I need to activate, it is extra buttons.

In addition to WASD, I use 1,2,3, shift 1,2,3, F, F2, middle mouse, shift middle mouse, front mouse, shift front mouse, back mouse, shift back mouse, right, left thumb button and the shift modifier. Not counting WASD that is 23 keys

Shield Wall, Last stand, Hamstring, Intimidating shout, challenging shout, Rallying cry and even Heroic Throw are not bound...some of you Prot Warriors might be shocked, but that works for me and the content I do.

I guess you could suggest that I teach myself to also use the ALT modifier or tweak my talents to get rid of some crap - but do you guys REALLY think the game or a specc is more interesting with around 30 abilities? Playing my warrior as fury feels much better.

Or in short, so you understand where I come from: To me, Vengeance DH have the perfect amount of abilities for my playstyle. Havoc could use 2-3 more, it feel "empty"

Ret feels good - as does Unholy, Blood, Arms....even Affliction lock. Struggling with Shadow Priests and Enhance shamans...but that could be because I rarely play them.

At the end of the day, I would however also NOT want to play with mashing just one button

That's how it should be. There should be different levels of complexity. Prot has too much for you, but for someone else it might be perfect. Vengeance is perfect for you, but it might not be enough for someone else. There's never going to be 1 level of complexity to satisfy everyone.

I really enjoy both enhance and shadow currently, and those are 2 specs people complain about a lot. I think shadow is simpler than enhance, but I've seen people struggle hard with it. I'd find the game a lot less enjoyable if everything was as simple as ret or BM.

[Biomega]

How do you simplify that?

By recognizing that it's not a 3-button rotation simply because you intentionally omitted all the ancillary stuff in the name of "3 button core rotation" as if those things didn't exist or weren't used.

But in any event, as I mentioned earlier, it varies from class to class and between specs. Some are more reasonable, some less so. But the existence of one spec with very few buttons does not invalidate the problem as a whole, does it. "We can't simplify this spec any more!" is fine to say, but it in no way, shape, or form leads to the follow-up of "...therefore we don't need to simplify any others, either!" now, does it?

Clearly this is a real, actual problem. If even Blizzard has jumped on that train, you know it's there.

[Just Passing through]

So, what are these weird things and where can we observe devs losing players?

You already know what reply you get from that kind of posters. Just by the sheer fact that WoW HAS lost players, they can start any claim with "WoW lost players.....hence xyz"

It is like talking to a Flat Earther

[Ghostile]

By recognizing that it's not a 3-button rotation simply because you intentionally omitted all the ancillary stuff in the name of "3 button core rotation" as if those things didn't exist or weren't used.

Do explain what I omitted.

[Wyrt]

By recognizing that it's not a 3-button rotation simply because you intentionally omitted all the ancillary stuff in the name of "3 button core rotation" as if those things didn't exist or weren't used.

But in any event, as I mentioned earlier, it varies from class to class and between specs. Some are more reasonable, some less so. But the existence of one spec with very few buttons does not invalidate the problem as a whole, does it. "We can't simplify this spec any more!" is fine to say, but it in no way, shape, or form leads to the follow-up of "...therefore we don't need to simplify any others, either!" now, does it?

Clearly this is a real, actual problem. If even Blizzard has jumped on that train, you know it's there.

How else are you supposed to design complexity if not having it vary between specs? Why should all classes meet whatever you consider as a reasonable level of complexity? Why can't you just play the ones you already consider reasonable?

[Just Passing through]

That's how it should be. There should be different levels of complexity. Prot has too much for you, but for someone else it might be perfect. Vengeance is perfect for you, but it might not be enough for someone else. There's never going to be 1 level of complexity to satisfy everyone.

I really enjoy both enhance and shadow currently, and those are 2 specs people complain about a lot. I think shadow is simpler than enhance, but I've seen people struggle hard with it. I'd find the game a lot less enjoyable if everything was as simple as ret or BM.

You have a point - in some cases it just deflects ppl from ever trying a specc. Like in my case I wouldn't touch Prot Warriors. Or abandoning a specc...like at the moment I just cannot make sense / enjoy of enhance shaman rotations.

But at the end of the day, I agree that your game works better if you have different levels of complexity for different speccs and you will hardly get a person to agree on all 36-ish of them.

But you're not talking rotation anymore, you're talking the whole toolkit. I don't know, I like to have extra abilities for special occasions; it feels fun and useful to soothe a mob, purge a buff, AoE stun a pack, etc. etc. Especially in a situation where the game is somewhat well balanced and you come to a point where players think: okay, both of those specs do comparable damage, but THAT spec can also do this and this and this. What's the solution to that? Making the game easier mechanically overall, by completely pruning things like those purges and AoE stuns, and make it all about DPSing and an occasional interrupt?

Yeah indeed...I went a bit further (too far for this thread?) - but I guess in the end, with my prot warrior, I already do what you suggested. Weed out the abilities that I do not use. Guess it is my own OCD that wishes, every ability was bound,

But I found a similar thing with Blessings for Paladins and sigils for DKs - some of them I really get away with hardly or not using at all, so they are just by the side, clickable once in a blue moon.

[Al Gorefiend]

And it'd also be nice if people considered that key bindings in general are a problem, and it's not just PURELY rotational abilities. Because "why are you complaining, your rotation is only 10 buttons, not 30! Those other 20 are cooldowns, potions, defensives, reactive abilities, items, trinkets, utility abilities, and so on TOTALLY NOT A PROBLEM to have that many buttons to bind because everything exclusively and directly ROTATIONAL fits on one row" doesn't exactly make for a compelling rebuttal, either.

I used to have number keys 1-4 bound, plus shift, alt, and ctrl modifiers. That was my core binding set. That's 16 keys. Plus extra mouse buttons, we get to 20 immediately accessible bindings. It wasn't NEARLY enough even discounting things like situational macros for higher-end stuff. 30 is by no means an exaggeration.

And I hope your response to that is not "well don't bind potions or trinkets or CC just click them all!", because that would be seriously missing the point.

I'm by no means suggesting WoW is doing "console prep" like some people are speculating, but at least the constraints of console controls force people to rethink complexity. And WoW seriously needs to rethink its complexity.

I play with a gaming mouse and standard 1-5 + alt keys and I only bind Q, E, R, T, F, V and I play the same general keybindings across all my classes (stuns to E, trinkets to R, movement to F etc)

The only class where I genuinely run out of the space and have to break out of the muscle-memory is warlock and enhancement shaman. Some like Evoker don't even fill all the slots

[Z3ROR]

I must say that the new one-button rotation button is step into a better direction, but not exactly the right one in my opinion. What they should do is keeping it only at suggestion the next spell, not actually cast it. This way the player is still responsible for pressing it and can learn their class' rotation that way until they reach the moment the game doesn't need to suggest for you anymore.

[Beuargh]

I must say that the new one-button rotation button is step into a better direction, but not exactly the right one in my opinion. What they should do is keeping it only at suggestion the next spell, not actually cast it. This way the player is still responsible for pressing it and can learn their class' rotation that way until they reach the moment the game doesn't need to suggest for you anymore.

from what I understand you can keep it only suggesting the next spell to help you learn the rotation, just like the heikili addon it's based on. the one button thing is an option further. I can see how people would want to free their mind about their spell rotation, even if they know how it works and what they should keep track of, to focus their attention on what's going on in a fight and it's mechanics.

I can't see how that one button thing works with healers tho. they'll need to keep most spells on their own bindings