Anyone remember when WoW was immersive?

[Kilpi]

Nah. Take dem lootz away from Mythic raids and see how many people actually run them for the sake of competition alone. Odds are it would be a tiny fraction of the current Mythic playerbase, which is itself a tiny fraction of the overall population.



Ion himself has already acknowledged that this is inevitable. In other words, as a dev you just cannot accommodate a game mode that requires an insane amount of optimization and minmaxing (which includes giving it tons of publicity and visibility) and NOT expect huge swaths of more run of the mill players to do the same - even if technically they don't need it. As Ion put it once:



Bolded is mine btw.

But the default mythic raids crowd doesn't really require "insane amount of optimization and minmaxing". It's the competition part of the mythic raiding; the ones trying to get to the leaderboards. Everyone else can do with "basic amount of optimization", like the basic knowledge of rotations and stat priority. Only the cutting edge actually has to do insane amount of anything. Everyone else are just fine.

[Lolites]

as a dev you just cannot accommodate a game mode that requires an insane amount of optimization and minmaxing and NOT expect huge swaths of more run of the mill players to do the same

i mean people minmax since vanila, when modes that required it did not exist...

[Ereb]

i mean people minmax since vanila, when modes that required it did not exist...

Shhh don't tell them that part. It was all rainbows and unicorns back then.

[WowIsDead64]

He says while nitpicking and derailing a thread.

Don't lie. In every thread I do only 2 things:
1) Post my initial opinion. It would be my only post, if it wouldn't be nitpicked.
2) Answer to other posters, who criticize my initial opinion, to explain why I'm right, cuz my principle is: argument thrown in without explanation - is BS and trolling bait.

I.e. I never come to thread and nitpick some other poster. That's what you usually do.

[Ereb]

Don't lie. In every thread I do only 2 things:
1) Post my initial opinion. It would be my only post, if it wouldn't be nitpicked.
2) Answer to other posters, who criticize my initial opinion, to explain why I'm right, cuz my principle is: argument thrown in without explanation - is BS and trolling bait.

I.e. I never come to thread and nitpick some other poster. That's what you usually do.

As he continues to nitpick about something that is derailing the thread. People calling out your obvious lies and BS in almost every post you make is not a 'nitpick'. Didn't you just say yesterday that an ignorant opinion is the same as a well-educated one? Talk about BS and trolling bait...

OT: WoW is still just as immersive as it ever was. You and others fail to understand is that it's your own changes and perspectives on the game that largely kill your own immersion, not necessarily the game itself and its features. If you really wanted to feel immersion in warcraft, I mean REALLY wanted it, it is right there waiting for you, and there are several addons available that will extremely amplify that experience in a positive way. But that's not what you want is it? Just like most others here it's more fun to sit and hate post all day about a video game you don't even play. Very healthy behavior 10/10 therapists would recommend.

[WowIsDead64]

As he continues to nitpick about and something that is derailing the thread. People calling out your obvious lies and BS in almost every post you make is not a 'nitpick'. Didn't you just say yesterday that an ignorant opinion is the same as a well-educated one? Talk about BS and trolling bait...

OT: WoW is still just as immersive as it ever was. You and others fail to understand is that it's your own changes and perspectives on the game that largely kill your own immersion, not necessarily the game itself and its features. If you really wanted to feel immersion in warcraft, I mean REALLY wanted it, it is right there waiting for you, and there are several addons available that will extremely amplify that experience in a positive way. But that's not what you want is it? Just like most others here it's more fun to sit and hate post all day about a video game you don't even play. Very healthy behavior 10/10 therapists would recommend.

That is usually about trying to represent some subjective opinion like "WotLK almost killed this game, but Cata and MOP saved it" as real truth, so opposite opinion is automatically lie. It doesn't work this way, sorry. Real truth is - your opinion is as subjective, as mine. At the end - you should provide some proof. And, you know, numbers don't lie.

[Ereb]

That is usually about trying to represent some subjective opinion like "WotLK almost killed this game, but Cata and MOP saved it" as real truth, so opposite opinion is automatically lie. It doesn't work this way, sorry. Real truth is - your opinion is as subjective, as mine. At the end - you should provide some proof. And, you know, numbers don't lie.

What are you even talking about? I never said any of those things and I always use numbers and facts to back up my thoughts and opinions. More senseless derailment with a mix of baseless accusations.

[WowIsDead64]

What are you even talking about? I never said any of those things and I always use numbers and facts to back up my thoughts and opinions. More senseless derailment with a mix of baseless accusations.

You should really pick avatar, cuz I don't remember, who says what and just mean general "you".

Another thing, some people do wrong - there are things, that can only be subjective and can never be objective. Immersion and difficulty for example. These things just can't be "wrong" or "right". Hence, saying that some others' opinions are wrong in this case - is also wrong. They should be discussed differently. It should never been about wrong or right. It should be about % of playerbase, that has such opinion and whether it should be catered to or not.

[Mysterymask]

As he continues to nitpick about something that is derailing the thread. People calling out your obvious lies and BS in almost every post you make is not a 'nitpick'. Didn't you just say yesterday that an ignorant opinion is the same as a well-educated one? Talk about BS and trolling bait...

Because it works Everytime he posts someone can't help but try to correct him or help him and the cycle continues

[WowIsDead64]

Because it works Everytime he posts someone can't help but try to correct him or help him and the cycle continues

Sorry, but "We want to help you" argument just doesn't work. It's the same thing, as when Top 1 player says, that bottom player just rejects his help, that's why he is still bottom. It doesn't work this way. Each player plays how he can, likes and wants. "You just play this game wrong way" argument would never work. Except some extreme case, when player does bad thing intentionally. Wants to play with steering wheel instead of keyboard and mouse for example. If player uses 100% valid ingame choices, like certain heroes or weapons - he does nothing bad. No matter, if competitive players try to claim he does exactly this or not. Meta - isn't only valid way to play game, sorry. Meta - is 100% made-up thing.

[AudibleEscalation]

What are you even talking about? I never said any of those things and I always use numbers and facts to back up my thoughts and opinions. More senseless derailment with a mix of baseless accusations.

Once a thread (pretty much any thread) gets to about 20-or-so pages, it starts getting 2-3 posts per page from him as he's managed to derail it into a discussion about his opinion and nothing else. It's just pointless continuing. Better to take a break and let him yammer.

[Aucald]

This thread is not about any specific poster or how they play the game, so let's pivot back to the actual topic of the thread concerning immersion and drop the derailing tangent discussion.

[Vakir]

Other than the first few hours around launch, I never felt it was. Ultimately it was just a streamlined and accessible EverQuest experience with a recognizable IP and more polish. We didn't know how to optimize as well but the systems were still relatively simple, the roleplaying choices were limited to non-existent, and it was still being put together for mass appeal. The only exception was raiding which was helmed by EverQuest vets, but it's important to note that so many people who are quick to criticize how easy WoW became are secret Wrathbabies themselves and never even engaged in genuinely bleeding edge content.

This entire conceit is and has always been like that satire meme about "New School, Old School, and Ancient Gamer" with almost all recent titles. Statistically, most people here weren't even near adulthood when they first played WoW and it likely wasn't even an early iteration.