There is a night elf NPC who hates both Alliance and Horde in Seasons of Discovery

[Syegfryed]

Well I mean if that's my chosen race then that makes sense.

But no, buffing only Stormwind and Orgrimmar = bad storytelling.

It not bad storytelling if it makes sense in the narrative due to then being the most populous races.

doing what you want, would be abd storytelling since goes against the canon and the fact established.

Years ago, it wouldn't have.

??

They have the same valour.

Which means nothing if you dont have power to back it up

Then numbers don't mean they are strong, they are a pack of cowardly dogs. No honour or glory for them.

I dont rly care what you think about then, and what you like more about the elves, what im talking about is the facts already established nd presented to us: The night elves were long a a race in decline and things just became fucked with the Legion and Scourge invasion. They dont have numbers and they dont have the power to stand alone.

Same way blood elves cant do much shit alone due to the scourge invasion.

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It makes sense overall that the Night Elves do join one or the other Faction but it is never really explained, other thatn the fact Blizz wanted Alliance players have a reason to be on Kalimdor..

They wanted to drive the orcs out of their lands, they sided with the orcs enemies. How is that not explained?

Garrosh shipped a bunch of Magnataur in, have you seen those things? They're bigger than what any ship we've seen can carry, no matter, Garrosh just flat-packed a bunch of them in anyway, and in-game ruined a good 2/3 of Ashenvale with them..

When this was established? they are not that humongous

[NekoOwlAzure]

That wouldn't have made it better TBH, it would still have the ass-pulled schemes to let the Horde win, would still have Binky the wonder rogue almost soloing the entire Night elf army on his own, whether we knew about it or not, Teldrassil was still doomed, the entire misbegotten storyline of the next 7 years hinged on that happening.

Well they could've not done that, and made it so the Kal'dorei win instead, pushing the Horde back to Orgrimmar and through Azshara, there were moments where I kinda thought that could happen, and the only reason it didn't was because they had decided that would have to be the outcome. Malfurion was there, he could've casted more than wrath and sunfire on Sylvanas, and ass-pulled schemes could literally be turned into anything, you could even have some random Night Elf rogue solo the entire Horde army. The Night Elves could've just picked up their shit, and pushed back if the outcome hadn't been already decided. And we could've even still gone to Kul'tiras and Zandalar, the Humans, Horde and whoever doing whatever. It seems like it would've made a lot more sense, but more updates to Darnassus would've been nice like the amount Stormwind got in Cataclysm and maybe a bit more.

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It not bad storytelling if it makes sense in the narrative due to then being the most populous races.

doing what you want, would be abd storytelling since goes against the canon and the fact established.

Well it doesn't, cause they weren't populous enough to only update Stormwind and Orgrimmar, that was forced, and it wasn't bla bla canon back then.

??



Which means nothing if you dont have power to back it up

It does/they do.

I dont rly care what you think about then, and what you like more about the elves, what im talking about is the facts already established nd presented to us: The night elves were long a a race in decline and things just became fucked with the Legion and Scourge invasion. They dont have numbers and they dont have the power to stand alone.

Same way blood elves cant do much shit alone due to the scourge invasion.

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Doesn't change what I've said.

They wanted to drive the orcs out of their lands, they sided with the orcs enemies. How is that not explained?

It wasn't widely believed that they're not strong enough to drive them out.

When this was established? they are not that humongous

Look at them in Northrend compared to a player character and see if they are or not.

[Syegfryed]

Well they could've not done that, and made it so the Kal'dorei win instead, pushing the Horde back to Orgrimmar and through Azshara,

So they would made the kaldorei, with less numbers, less power, less tech, to win, just because you like then more, and that is good storytelling

All right i guess

It does/they do.

They dont... thats the lore and its explained why in the warcraft 3

It wasn't widely believed that they're not strong enough to drive them out.

It is to anyone who actually pay attention to the lore;

Look at them in Northrend compared to a player character and see if they are or not.

NPCs and mobs size - nd ultimately buildings and ships - dont rly matter/dont reflect reality

[NekoOwlAzure]

So they would made the kaldorei, with less numbers, less power, less tech, to win, just because you like then more, and that is good storytelling

All right i guess

Less numbers and less power? I don't remember that ever being said officially. Orcs tech pretty much comes from the Goblins, which is another thing built up over many years since Classic, and honestly with that being the case it's kinda hard to ignore the Draenei sitting right next to them.

They dont... thats the lore and its explained why in the warcraft 3

The strength is within them, and in their hearts, not just in a tree or a well that gives power.

It is to anyone who actually pay attention to the lore;

Sorry I just don't think that's true.

NPCs and mobs size - nd ultimately buildings and ships - dont rly matter/dont reflect reality

Hmm, everything contradicts itself.

[Noyn]

They wanted to drive the orcs out of their lands, they sided with the orcs enemies. How is that not explained?

In Lore?...Quest, Books?...no it is as far as i know, it was never explained why they ofificially joined the Alliance.
And i really dont know if joining a Faction on the other end of the World on a different Continent is that helpful...as we saw it is not helpful, if anything it made them more of a target.
The NE were in a rough spot though, having problems with Furbolg for example.

I wouldnt even try to argue over numbers and powerlevels, Blizz uses the rule of cool.
Before the WoT Sylvanas mentions how the Horde could never win with Malf and Tyrande on the field, yet all it took was one undead with a Bow and 2 Valkyr to hold them off while they raise their dead.(Edit:against an empowered Tyrande btw lol)

And the whole "Our power will wane with time" line from Malf also was never really expand upon except theories but if they want the whole downfall thing, which is fine by me, but when do they finally get "not downfall"?...all they did was lose and get saved from cata til DF.
Or so i would have asked a few years ago, now its way to late to make them look competent, the Horde will always be a looming threat to the NE and they were shown incapable of defending.
The whole "We will return Home" is just more empty rambling of a walking failure that is Tyrande.

[Syegfryed]

Less numbers and less power? I don't remember that ever being said officially.

Yes and they joining an already established faction literally proves that, as they no longer could be a faction of their own like in wc3.

Same way the forsaken not being the scourge, needing to join the horde

But it wasOrcs tech pretty much comes from the Goblins, which is another thing built up over many years since Classic,

ok, its still their technology now and they used to have a headstart.

The strength is within them, and in their hearts, not just in a tree or a well that gives power.

IT very cute and im sure it would work in an anime, but not in the game, sorry.

Sorry I just don't think that's true.

Headcanon all you like, but it is how its established

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In Lore?...Quest, Books?...no it is as far as i know, it was never explained why they ofificially joined the Alliance.

Ingame, we have the battleground in shenvale to show to us.

You can criticize how poorly the lore was handled in classic, but it was there.

And i really dont know if joining a Faction on the other end of the World on a different Continent is that helpful...as we saw it is not helpful, if anything it made them more of a target.

Joining the horde to expel the orcs from their lands isnt rly going to work out, they need someone else

How that made then more of a target?

Before the WoT Sylvanas mentions how the Horde could never win with Malf and Tyrande on the field, yet all it took was one undead with a Bow and 2 Valkyr to hold them off while they raise their dead.(Edit:against an empowered Tyrande btw lol)

Thats just blizzard saying shit to make edgy/cool lines.

And the whole "Our power will wane with time" line from Malf also was never really expand upon except theories but if they want the whole downfall thing, which is fine by me, but when do they finally get "not downfall"?...all they did was lose and get saved from cata til DF.

He is talking about the power from the world tree, who made elves stronger physically and immortal. This power is gone.

Or so i would have asked a few years ago, now its way to late to make them look competent

I mean, wait in line, literally all races besides humans are waiting to be competent again.

[Noyn]

You can criticize how poorly the lore was handled in classic, but it was there.
Joining the horde to expel the orcs from their lands isnt rly going to work out, they need someone else

How that made then more of a target?

"Hey Saurfang remember when Genn from the Alliance attacked me in Stormheim? lets kill some Night Elves."
I doubt you could sell Saurfang that one but those are just what ifs and it doesnt really matter anymore why, outside of some vague text from BGs, they officially joined.

He is talking about the power from the world tree, who made elves stronger physically and immortal. This power is gone.

Nothing is said of Physical Strength but mortality and illness, but it was never really much of a story overall.
NE story progressed literally zero, after all that crap and exposure, they just repeated old story...they get wrecked and what do they do? plant another tree.

I mean, wait in line, literally all races besides humans are waiting to be competent again.

So Blood Elf/Undead Rogue and a Goblin Hunter, Roflstomp waves off Sentinels and Druids in their own Forest solo isnt enough?(in prepatch there was literally a lone Orc on his Kodomo in the middle of Ashenvale and mowed down countless.)
But sure everyone should be competent and im perfectly fine if the Horde takes the Spotlight, Midnight is not far from announcement?

Im also perfectly fine with other Alliance races only getting the Dreanei treatment, bits here and there but it is actually good, i dont really care what they do with the NEs though...nothing will redeemed this shit pathetic race.
Although if they try to do something with the NEs i will have a good laugh cause they will inevitably fail hard.

[Syegfryed]

"Hey Saurfang remember when Genn from the Alliance attacked me in Stormheim? lets kill some Night Elves."
I doubt you could sell Saurfang that one but those are just what ifs and it doesnt really matter anymore why, outside of some vague text from BGs, they officially joined.

I don't see how that make then more of a target? they being with the alliance its what make then less of a target, since they have someone to back then up. The sole reason the horde didnt got ashenvale was due to the alliance attacking from theramore position in the south or sending the elves resources

Nothing is said of Physical Strength but mortality and illness, but it was never really much of a story overall.

They got connected with a giving-life tree and you think their normal power would not be boosted? its even said now they could enter the emerald dream with ease

NE story progressed literally zero, after all that crap and exposure, they just repeated old story...they get wrecked and what do they do? plant another tree.

All right, but, thats like the same for all races, it repeating the sabe beats they did before.

Well, some dont even get a beat to be repeated like the trolls.

So Blood Elf/Undead Rogue and a Goblin Hunter, Roflstomp waves off Sentinels and Druids in their own Forest solo isnt enough?(in prepatch there was literally a lone Orc on his Kodomo in the middle of Ashenvale and mowed down countless.)

Thats hardly "other races being competent" and just blizzard trying to make a story with those races, i think you either mean the WoT short story or the ingame quests, but that story is fucked anyway, it should not be used a basis from both sides, at lea you saw malfurion killing hundreds by himself

But sure everyone should be competent and im perfectly fine if the Horde takes the Spotlight, Midnight is not far from announcement?

ITs going tob e fucking awful, and a snooze fest of elves and windrunners talking shit all the time.

[baskev]

She’s infinitely more recognizable as a true NE than whatever soy slop Tyrande and other NE became.

yes and no.

I liked that the NE, became more...tame in WoW.

But after Teldrassil i wanted to become more HC again. Like, hey we gave it try. But it bit us in the *rs*

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That speech reads like some doe-eyed college writer badly wanted to recapture some of the old wc3 bite, and tried to do so with... angry treehugger idealogy. Which misses the point.

I like the idea, but that execution aint it. Still, it's better than the pushovers the NE have been made to be so often.

you can say that about most races in Warcraft 3 vs WoW.

Centaurs where a menace in W3 not in WoW

Humans where strong in wc3, not weak like in WoW

Orcs where a tired, Run away, just want to live in peace in WC3 , not warmongering mass murders.

trolls where not a joke in wc3

[NekoOwlAzure]

Yes and they joining an already established faction literally proves that, as they no longer could be a faction of their own like in wc3.

Same way the forsaken not being the scourge, needing to join the horde

No it doesn't prove that, there are debates about whether them joining the Alliance makes sense or not.
It's not really the same they are very obviously in a very different situation.

ok, its still their technology now and they used to have a headstart.

A headstart that the Night Elves gave them by not taking control of the Barrens which has led there on their very doorstep for ages.

IT very cute and im sure it would work in an anime, but not in the game, sorry.

That's literally the same kind of logic Orcs fight with, so don't even give me that.

Plus this game is a lot like an anime now, so again, don't even think to give me that.

Headcanon all you like, but it is how its established

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It's not any more established than it is not established, I don't think anyone from Blizzard has ever officially said that, if Blizzard themself did say that was officially the case that would be an entirely different matter, and I would be disappointed in the game or at least the current runners of it honestly. So I can just debunk that.

I mean, wait in line, literally all races besides humans are waiting to be competent again.

You can't say that's not a really bad state of affairs. About as ugly as say, an Orc.

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Thats just blizzard saying shit to make edgy/cool lines.

Well their "rule of cool" is getting old and is inconsistent with the lore, kinda want something new.

I don't see how that make then more of a target? they being with the alliance its what make then less of a target, since they have someone to back then up. The sole reason the horde didnt got ashenvale was due to the alliance attacking from theramore position in the south or sending the elves resources

Lol no it wasn't, Orcs are very cucky.

[Arikara]

you can say that about most races in Warcraft 3 vs WoW.

Are you trying to make a point here? These are examples of WoW's failings, which is my point exactly.

[Noyn]

They got connected with a giving-life tree and you think their normal power would not be boosted? its even said now they could enter the emerald dream with ease

1 we dont know for sure, nothing ever eluded to it and 2 that has nothing to do with physically, but it doesnt matter anyway.

All right, but, thats like the same for all races, it repeating the sabe beats they did before.
Well, some dont even get a beat to be repeated like the trolls.

And they shouldnt get storys like these but actually Progress?
But i must say, it takes quite alot to use a Race so often, ruin every aspect of said race and still not really further their story forward.
The whole "We must change" shtick is basically their story going into WoW.

Thats hardly "other races being competent" and just blizzard trying to make a story with those races, i think you either mean the WoT short story or the ingame quests, but that story is fucked anyway, it should not be used a basis from both sides, at lea you saw malfurion killing hundreds by himself

My problem is that whenever something actually good happens, it is just Malf...who is supposed to be a demigod...not the ordinary Nelf. (Darkshore cutscene)
And the statement still stands...compared to Nelfs, the Horde was shown to be massively more competent.
And having "Demigod" Leader means nothing if they get clowned on by any random shmuck.

ITs going tob e fucking awful, and a snooze fest of elves and windrunners talking shit all the time.

Well considering the current writing, my hopes are non existant.
Everything is like a Therapie Lesson since DF.

[Syegfryed]

And they shouldnt get storys like these but actually Progress?

I mean, they should, but they will not, cause its blizzard writing it.

When they decide to 'give spotlight to a race" you know you are for a bad ride.

But i must say, it takes quite alot to use a Race so often, ruin every aspect of said race and still not really further their story forward.

They have experience with that, by ruining orcs, both in MOP, Wod and BFA

And the statement still stands...compared to Nelfs, the Horde was shown to be massively more competent.

I dont know how ending up in infighting and having to defeat your own leader twice or have nothing in the narrative(taurens and trolls) shows they are competent.

And having "Demigod" Leader means nothing if they get clowned on by any random shmuck.

Thrall was supposed to be one too, but alas.

Well considering the current writing, my hopes are non existant.
Everything is like a Therapie Lesson since DF.

The better course of action is hoping they dont touch your race, so they dont ruin it.

I fear how badly they will ruin trolls and the amani

[Skytotem]

I don't think you're really suppose to agree with her.

But she adds some nuance to the Night Elf story that was always missing. Forsaken had complex motives for joining the Horde but Night Elves were just all of a sudden pro-alliance, human lovers in vanilla. A large tonal shift from their portrayal in WC3, likely so they could just fit the niche of generic elf in game.

You literally can as a night elf

[mysticx]

I dont know how ending up in infighting and having to defeat your own leader twice or have nothing in the narrative(taurens and trolls) shows they are competent.

The implication that the Alliance can only defeat the Horde when they're distracted by infighting doesn't do much to make the Alliance seem competent, TBH. (Let alone the clusterhump that was Anduin the unready's attack on Undercity...)

Also, the Horde gets to play through their early victories, which is a lot better than getting to play through "Run away!", "Fall back!", or if we're lucky "Mop up after the Horde destroyed/killed everything", and who can forget the fist-pump moment of "Fail miserably to save people from Teldrassil"?

[Syegfryed]

The implication that the Alliance can only defeat the Horde when they're distracted by infighting doesn't do much to make the Alliance seem competent, TBH.

They are more competent, cause they get to fight against themselves.

They not being able to win alone just show they are equal in terms of strength.

Also, the Horde gets to play through their early victories, which is a lot better than getting to play through "Run away!", "Fall back!", or if we're lucky "Mop up after the Horde destroyed/killed everything", and who can forget the fist-pump moment of "Fail miserably to save people from Teldrassil"?

What playing their victories? most of the conflicts in Cata and MOP end up in a stalemate

[mysticx]

What playing their victories? most of the conflicts in Cata and MOP end up in a stalemate

Yeah yeah, in books and mission table blurb maybe, but where we can see it, namely in the actual game, it's the Horde that gains ground and wins the fights, the Alliance gets to do mop-up work if they're lucky...

Who cares if in "Wolfheart" (I read it, wish i could un-read things...) Varian comes to the Night elves' rescue (As if that's such a favourable outcome for them, but i digress...), what matters is what's in-game, and in-game, Ashenvale is still covered in Horde forces (Still from Garrosh's little conquest spree), and Darkshore is wrecked, what's in books is irrelevant to the gameplay experience.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah yeah, in books and mission table blurb maybe, but where we can see it, namely in the actual game, it's the Horde that gains ground and wins the fights, the Alliance gets to do mop-up work if they're lucky...

??
i dont rly see that in any way. At best ingame they just made things equal in cata, since before it was majority alliance.

Who cares if in "Wolfheart" (I read it, wish i could un-read things...) Varian comes to the Night elves' rescue (As if that's such a favourable outcome for them, but i digress...), what matters is what's in-game, and in-game, Ashenvale is still covered in Horde forces (Still from Garrosh's little conquest spree), and Darkshore is wrecked, what's in books is irrelevant to the gameplay experience.

But it is a stalemate and the zones are contested.

[Noyn]

I mean, they should, but they will not, cause its blizzard writing it.
When they decide to 'give spotlight to a race" you know you are for a bad ride.

I mean that depends on what you want in a story...i just mean instead of repeating the same story and making it worse that it shouldnt happened to any race.
To your second point...it is really bad that one cant really expect much but it is based on past writing.

I dont know how ending up in infighting and having to defeat your own leader twice or have nothing in the narrative(taurens and trolls) shows they are competent.

Maybe it doesnt? but that is not what i mean...the Horde Roflstomping through Ashenvale with no resistance other than Malfurion makes NE look incompetent and there is not much wiggle room to even pretend otherwise.
Your example on the other Hand, different races fighting their Leader because he as gone off rails because they want to do the right thing? better.
But that is the scenario in a Vacuum because, it is just as i said with the shitty repeating of Storylines, it didnt just happend once...but at least it wasnt the Alliance making you look incompetent.
And when you mention Anduin making a speech in Orgrimmar, i got nothing...i wouldnt want that fucker of all people to speak of peace and all that either.

The better course of action is hoping they dont touch your race, so they dont ruin it.
I fear how badly they will ruin trolls and the amani

Well i can only wish luck so that it doesnt come to that...regardless of the past.

??
i dont rly see that in any way. At best ingame they just made things equal in cata, since before it was majority alliance.

You are right, officially it is same old...but the problem is...it is NEVER reflected in the game...you know what is reflected? Horde cutting through Ashenvale

Bottom Line, NOBODY wants the same treatment as NE but to the "at least they are shown" i say...i wish you the very same.

[Syegfryed]

u are right, officially it is same old...but the problem is...it is NEVER reflected in the game...you know what is reflected? Horde cutting through Ashenvale

The thing is, you are expecting - assuming you are talking about WoT - one single race, unprepared and by surprise, to hold off the entire army of a faction, alone.

That isn't rly going to happen, if anything, they were competent enough to hold then off for that long.