Turalyon [Midnight Spoilers]

[VladlTutushkin]

Most of the current writing team probably has never read the novels and likely only knows of Warcraft 1-2 by reading a summary on the wiki once. If you divorce WoW from the original material, humans are a rundown religious monarchy that is racist towards minorities while those minorities are somehow never responsible for their actions.

*If you divorce your brain from logic, memory and any kind of lore accuracy.

[Amani Enjoyer]

It is heartening to know that there are other fans of the old lore out there, and that many share my dissatisfaction with the revisionist methods of modern Blizzard. Alas, I don’t think anything we say here, on the forums, or anywhere else, will encourage change. This is because the current Blizzard staff aren’t the same ones that created the game we fell in love with so long ago. They are stewards of that vision, and they clearly think that it should bend to fit how they imagine Warcraft should be. This will not change. Not by words alone, at least. It would take something as disastrous as Shadowlands to make that kind of change, and we are nowhere near that kind of drop-off.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

They've been trying to whitewash Orcs for a long time now. Their latest push is just bringing them up to speed with DnD's modern rendition of the race. And if Orcs are no longer evil, guess who has to take the fall...

To be fair, humans were being cast as villains as early as the interim between Warcraft II and III with the cancelled Lord of the Clans. Warcraft III itself mainly followed the descent of a rage-blinded human prince into evil, and the Durotar plot in TFT is driven by the Horde fighting racist humans. Warcraft orcs were effectively the franchise's default heroes and pseudo-mascots during Warcraft III and, if anything, the story has actually moved more towards making good human paladins the default again—the difference being that instead of having loyalty to any kind of transcendent power, it's uhhh Freedom or smth* (the opiate of American storytelling, frustratingly likely to become the domain of our precious, innocent, personality-deprived World-Soul that all the mean cosmic forces want to convert).

The really stupid new addition is, as I see it, just that there's this absolutely ridiculous and dumb Lightrage mechanic to inexplicably villain bat a force that obviously didn't need it—obviously, there's also the problem that Turalyon goes from having an actual philosophical justification to Pally angry, Pally smash.

I've got a whole thread rightly bitching about why the whole lightrage mechanics is an absolutely awful way to take the villainous Light idea even if we pretend villain batting the Light is a good idea (it isn't).


* to be clear, I'm not talking about freedom, I'm talking about uhhh Freedom or smth, which I class as a distinct, watered-down offshoot of that concept. If somebody vaguely talks about freedom, autonomy, sometimes tolerance etc. as borderline-axiomatic values with little or very shallow exploration, definition, or justification, that's uhhh Freedom or smth.

[Xilurm]

Well that is certainly one way to make the game last 20 more years. Just retcon old lore to give way to new lore. Easy!

[Daronokk]

They've been trying to whitewash Orcs for a long time now.

Oh really? Is that why all Orc heroes from Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 have been killed off except for Thrall? Is that why Siege of Orgrimmar happened in which the Alliance basically won the faction war within WoW? Is that why all notable Orc characters in WoW got killed off except for Thrall? Then they brought some of them back in Warlords of Draenor only to kill them all a second time and spit on their grave?

Yeah, really sounds like whitewashing to me. Whatever you're smoking dude.

To put this in perspective, we're discussing in a thread about an Alliance dude from Warcraft 1 still being alive in WoW today, and even all his old friends still are alive and active as well. Kurdran, Danath, Khadgar, Alleria, etc. Please tell me all about this Horde bias you're seeing. It's some heavy drugs you're taking.

[BaumanKing]

an Alliance dude from Warcraft 1 still being alive in WoW today

Akshually all WC1 characters are dead except for Garona, who is a Horde character.

[Ironhorn]

Just wanted to show that Blizzard's writers are retconning Turalyon from The Tides of Darkness into zealot.
They are practicing historical revisionism and by doing that are twisting and undermining his character.





Turalyon never turned into the ball of wrath and blind rage at Blackrock.
He was very much conscious and thoughful even, searching for an answer to justify his actions.
Orgrim's intentions weren't to coexist, but to eradicate humanity and leave Azeroth for Orcs only. This realization was what made him act. It wasnt some spontaneous push or loss of mind.
And during the duel Turalyon very much CONTROLLED his actions, as he knocked Orgrim out without killing him, to judge using the laws.

It is astonishing how disrespectful new Blizzard writers towards Turalyon are. They blatantly 180 his backstory to fit it into their new idea of making him into some questionable moron at best, blind villain at worst.

This whole thing is just not a good writing, so are writers' intentions regarding another established good old character.

And that was the answer.
He had remembered the Dark Portal, of course—Khadgar had told him about it when they had first met, while
describing the orc menace, and it had been mentioned several times since then. But for some reason the truth of it
had never really sunk in. Until now.
The orcs were not of this world.
They were foreign to this planet, to this very plane of existence. They came from elsewhere, and were powered by
demons from even farther beyond.
The Holy Light did unite all life, everyone in this world. But not the orcs, who did not belong here.
And that meant his task was clear. He was charged with upholding the Holy Light and using its blazing glory to
scour this world clean of all threats from without, and to maintain the purity within.
The orcs did not belong here. And that meant he could strike them down with impunity.

“You will die here, with the rest of your kind, and this
world will be rid of your taint forever!”

He absolutely was a Zealot even back then

[Garrac]

Oh, just realised, Blizz also retconned the Revantusk tribe out of the Horde, which I found surprising since in Zuldazar they were Horde allies.

[Zyky]

new Blizzard writers

Not to justify this, but you realize that they rehired Metzen to handle the story right? He has the final say of this bs happening, not "new writers"

[Nerovar]

Oh really? Is that why all Orc heroes from Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 have been killed off except for Thrall? Is that why Siege of Orgrimmar happened in which the Alliance basically won the faction war within WoW? Is that why all notable Orc characters in WoW got killed off except for Thrall? Then they brought some of them back in Warlords of Draenor only to kill them all a second time and spit on their grave?

Yeah, really sounds like whitewashing to me. Whatever you're smoking dude.

To put this in perspective, we're discussing in a thread about an Alliance dude from Warcraft 1 still being alive in WoW today, and even all his old friends still are alive and active as well. Kurdran, Danath, Khadgar, Alleria, etc. Please tell me all about this Horde bias you're seeing. It's some heavy drugs you're taking.

Oh yeah, Warlords of Draenor. The expansion that started with an Orc who led the invasion on Azeroth getting out completely scot free and yelling "Draenor is free!" in the ending cinematic while they turned the Draenei into the villains. They literally took a race of bellicose conquerors into refugees that are persecuted by Light fanatics and now they peacefully farm dirt in Arathi.

Do you even know what whitewashing means?

To be fair, humans were being cast as villains as early as the interim between Warcraft II and III with the cancelled Lord of the Clans. Warcraft III itself mainly followed the descent of a rage-blinded human prince into evil, and the Durotar plot in TFT is driven by the Horde fighting racist humans. Warcraft orcs were effectively the franchise's default heroes and pseudo-mascots during Warcraft III and, if anything, the story has actually moved more towards making good human paladins the default again—the difference being that instead of having loyalty to any kind of transcendent power, it's uhhh Freedom or smth* (the opiate of American storytelling, frustratingly likely to become the domain of our precious, innocent, personality-deprived World-Soul that all the mean cosmic forces want to convert).

Well yeah, Metzen's WC3 Orc rewrite is the foundation for all future whitewashing. I would never deny this. But there's a big difference between Orcs having some capacity for good despite being an immensely violent and warlike race and Orcs being innocent little puppies who just want to peacefully share Azeroth with everyone else.

[Soon-TM]

Let's reserve judgment for now. The cinematic hasn't even been implemented yet.

But it does portray Turalyon's motivations for invading Draenor in BtDP in a rather ominous light now.

Oh yeah, so Bulb Boi is getting the Sylvanas treatment? Finally the blue team can STFU about Horde-centric narrative, I guess.

[kathune]

I've lost trace of how many times they changed the fact behind 'how lothar dies'

Here we go again.

[Enrif]

And that was the answer.
He had remembered the Dark Portal, of course—Khadgar had told him about it when they had first met, while
describing the orc menace, and it had been mentioned several times since then. But for some reason the truth of it
had never really sunk in. Until now.
The orcs were not of this world.
They were foreign to this planet, to this very plane of existence. They came from elsewhere, and were powered by
demons from even farther beyond.
The Holy Light did unite all life, everyone in this world. But not the orcs, who did not belong here.
And that meant his task was clear. He was charged with upholding the Holy Light and using its blazing glory to
scour this world clean of all threats from without, and to maintain the purity within.
The orcs did not belong here. And that meant he could strike them down with impunity.

“You will die here, with the rest of your kind, and this
world will be rid of your taint forever!”

He absolutely was a Zealot even back then

don't try to bring in logic. It is clear that "all new" writing is bad, no matter what, even if it references things that happend 25 years ago.

[BaumanKing]

don't try to bring in logic. It is clear that "all new" writing is bad, no matter what, even if it references things that happend 25 years ago.

Tbf even this was slightly retconned in the second volume of Chronicle. It's specifically mentioned that Turalyon and his paladins actually didn't kill all the orcs during the battle, but rather stunned them so they could stand trial with their warchief.

But if Turalyon went berserk, as described in the cutscene, then why spare the orcs instead of slaughtering them? It doesn't make sense.

[Enrif]

Tbf even this was slightly retconned in the second volume of Chronicle. It's specifically mentioned that Turalyon and his paladins actually didn't kill all the orcs during the battle, but rather stunned them so they could stand trial with their warchief.

But if Turalyon went berserk, as described in the cutscene, then why spare the orcs instead of slaughtering them? It doesn't make sense.

"going berserk" can be interepreted in different ways. It can be a gore field killing spree, or just lashing out uncontrolled that overpowers the opponent without killing them.

This community is too prone to go to extreme interpretations of everything

[Nerovar]

don't try to bring in logic. It is clear that "all new" writing is bad, no matter what, even if it references things that happend 25 years ago.

It is not a reference, it is a reframing of events. There's a pretty big difference between righteous, tempered anger and religiously fueled blind rage. In fact, one could argue that they're opposites. Turalyon didn't go "berserk". He had a revelation because Orgrim's words allowed him to bridge a philosophical gap and then made a rational, conscious decision to fight and when he did, he used only the right amount of violence to disarm his foe and take him prisoner.

[Enrif]

It is not a reference, it is a reframing of events. There's a pretty big difference between righteous, tempered anger and religiously fueled blind rage. In fact, one could argue that they're opposites. Turalyon didn't go "berserk". He had a revelation because Orgrim's words allowed him to bridge a philosophical gap and then made a rational, conscious decision to fight and when he did, he used only the right amount of violence to disarm his foe and take him prisoner.

yeah, no, read again this passage, that can be interpreted as going berserk.

The orcs did not belong here. And that meant he could strike them down with impunity.
“You will die here, with the rest of your kind, and this
world will be rid of your taint forever!”

[Nerovar]

yeah, no, read again this passage, that can be interpreted as going berserk.

How can that be possibly interpreted as going berserk? You read this passage and think "oh shucks, that sounds a bit extreme!" because you sympathize with the Orcs based on the context of the later games. But that's not what going berserk means. He's merely telling the Orcs what he's going to do to them. Going berserk or entering a "blind rage" definitionally means losing control over your base impulses and the word comes from warriors who were described as giving themselves over to anger to such a degree that they could no longer distinguish between friend and foe. Someone who is not in control however would not stop at disarming his enemy. He would bash his head in. It's just a total misrepresentation of the events described in Tides of Darkness.

[Enrif]

How can that be possibly interpreted as going berserk? You read this passage and think "oh shucks, that sounds a bit extreme!" because you sympathize with the Orcs based on the context of the later games. But that's not what going berserk means. He's merely telling the Orcs what he's going to do to them. Going berserk or entering a "blind rage" definitionally means losing control over your base impulses and the word comes from warriors who were described as giving themselves over to anger to such a degree that they could no longer distinguish between friend and foe. Someone who is not in control however would not stop at disarming his enemy. He would bash his head in. It's just a total misrepresentation of the events described in Tides of Darkness.

"going berserk"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/go%20berserk
1: to become very angry and often violent
2: to become very excited


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...nglish/berserk
very angry or out of control:

https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/berserk
1: to become very angry, crazy, and violent
2: to become very excited


going berserk is not about blind violence in common english use. And the interpretation of Turalyon from the books can fit that description. He is angry at what happend to Lothar, he is ready for violence. he goes on the offensive and strikes the orc down.

going berserk doesn't mean = kill

[Nerovar]

going berserk is not about blind violence in common english use. And the interpretation of Turalyon from the books can fit that description. He is angry at what happend to Lothar, he is ready for violence. he goes on the offensive and strikes the orc down.

going berserk doesn't mean = kill

Can you walk me through your interpretation of what the phrase "blind rage" means here?