Haranir, trolls and elves - Origins [spoilers]

[Aucald]

I see the wiki is still dedicated to its lack of quality even post leaving fandom.

That is taken from the art book which is blatantly non canon as any one who’s gone through the whole thing should be able to notice instantly as about half of it is obviously wrong.

For the wiki, I think it's that it just hasn't been updated for Midnight yet. I mean the Haranir section of the page only has a single sentence for the whole of Midnight, the expansion that formally introduces them and delves into their history and lore. Prior to TWW, the artbook was the sole source of additional Haranir lore, regardless of its own inconsistencies.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

For the wiki, I think it's that it just hasn't been updated for Midnight yet. I mean the Haranir section of the page only has a single sentence for the whole of Midnight, the expansion that formally introduces them and delves into their history and lore. Prior to TWW, the artbook was the sole source of additional Haranir lore, regardless of its own inconsistencies.

It could just be that it hasn’t been updated for launch but the wiki has had a pretty consistent streak in having false info on it for years so it’s really a coin toss.

This also makes me wonder how much wrong info is in the other art books which is being cited some where as canon. If there all at the level of this one then they should all be thrown out as development plans and not actual canon.

[Aucald]

It could just be that it hasn’t been updated for launch but the wiki has had a pretty consistent streak in having false info on it for years so it’s really a coin toss.

This also makes me wonder how much wrong info is in the other art books which is being cited some where as canon. If there all at the level of this one then they should all be thrown out as development plans and not actual canon.

I know the UVG has a lot of info in it that was later superseded and/or retconned, although I don't remember it getting as many basic facts wrong as the CE artbook seems to. I'm kind of wondering if the CE artbook was finalized before 11.2 was mapped out, and the two teams didn't communicate story beats.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I know the UVG has a lot of info in it that was later superseded and/or retconned, although I don't remember it getting as many basic facts wrong as the CE artbook seems to. I'm kind of wondering if the CE artbook was finalized before 11.2 was mapped out, and the two teams didn't communicate story beats.

Ya retcons are one thing but I can’t recall any other books where pretty much every piece of info given is just on its face wrong.

And the art book has to be written before even 11.1 given how it treats the dark heart as destroyed and makes no mention of goblins or undermine. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been sitting finished in a data base since TWW was released and the just hit print wit no revisions.

[Lahis]

In order for them to encounter Freya, they would've needed to be around -20,055 PY before Freya was imprisoned in Ulduar by Loken, following his betrayal of the Keepers due to Yogg-Saron's corruption (as per Chronicle Vol. 1, pg. 54-59). The Night Elves as people came to be somewhere around -16,000 to -15,000 PY, after the trolls warred with Aqir, some 5,000 years after Freya and the other Keepers were imprisoned within Ulduar (as per Chronicle Vol. 1, pg. 93). This means the Harranir predate the origin of Night Elves by at least 4,000 years. However, it's also possible this is in the period where the Dark Trolls were still becoming the Night Elves, but hadn't yet claimed the title or begun their civilization, as referenced by some flavor items in Legion.

One of their tablets speak of the uplifting of Dragonflights and the Titanforged work that followed that around Kalimdor:



So they have stories dating back to the days of Galagrond.

[Aucald]

One of their tablets speak of the uplifting of Dragonflights and the Titanforged work that followed that around Kalimdor:

https://i.imgur.com/5f1YNl5.jpeg

So they have stories dating back to the days of Galagrond.

This would make them even older, meaning they were around in -20,000 PY, or approximately 7,000 years before the Night Elves.

[Syegfryed]

One of their tablets speak of the uplifting of Dragonflights and the Titanforged work that followed that around Kalimdor:

So they have stories dating back to the days of Galagrond.

They just need to say they were remembering stuff the days when they were still dark trolls and nelves from the echo of the song or whatever bs they came up, but the physical change to actual haranir only happened much later after they went underground

[username993720]

It could just be that it hasn’t been updated for launch but the wiki has had a pretty consistent streak in having false info on it for years so it’s really a coin toss.

This also makes me wonder how much wrong info is in the other art books which is being cited some where as canon. If there all at the level of this one then they should all be thrown out as development plans and not actual canon.

Do not question our god, the wiki.

[Pyrophax]

They just need to say they were remembering stuff the days when they were still dark trolls and nelves from the echo of the song or whatever bs they came up, but the physical change to actual haranir only happened much later after they went underground

Why? To support your idea that haranirs was NEs once? They were not. Just do the quests mate, its clear as day. I even point it for ya.


They lived in Hyjal long before NEs exist. Their ancestors learn druidism long before Cenarius was born, it times of titan keepers was ordering Kalimor. They never come to Well of Eternity to be transformed from Dark trolls into NEs. They lived at the mountain, then go underground. And mountain was quite far from Well. Even on map Hyjal is painted as dark troll territory.




After playing in Harandar more closely - I noticed there is almost 0 NPCs without tusks and NONE NPCs with normal feet - all of them are 4 digit feet and heel toe. And even that 4 fingers are looking more like troll feets - with 2 larger toes in center and 2 little ones on the sides.
And even after that - they are all walking barefoot, as trolls. Their Reliquary named Zur'Ashar, almost trollish Zul' prefix.
I dunno how many details needs to be shown to prove that haranirs are missing link between Dark trolls and Night Elves.
And second note - their 5toe feets probably just rudiment of some wild retcon job between TWW and Midnight.

Not a best job for sure, but at least new lore make more sence then some NEs instead of favor Cenarius druidism comes underground and mutate into half-diredevils for whatever reason, forgot how to wear their boots, grow back trollish tusks and heel toe, abandon Elune, Cenarius and Moon to follow the roots. Dark trolls - for sure, they are worship strange things from the beginning.

[Syegfryed]

I see the wiki is still dedicated to its lack of quality even post leaving fandom.

funny enough, after this discussion someone went there and already edited to say they are "confirmed" to come from dark trolls all though there are no confirmation.

- - - Updated - - -

Why? To support your idea that haranirs was NEs once?

to make it make sense, since they are clearly night elves edited.

They were not. Just do the quests mate, its clear as day. I even point it for ya.

The harranir calling themselves haranir even though they did not transformed themselves yet, simple as that

They lived in Hyjal long before NEs exist. Their ancestors learn druidism long before Cenarius was born, it times of titan keepers was ordering Kalimor. They never come to Well of Eternity to be transformed from Dark trolls into NEs. They lived at the mountain, then go underground. And mountain was quite far from Well. Even on map Hyjal is painted as dark troll territory.

Thats cap and makes no sense and would make them not related to trolls nor elves and be something else entirely, older than trolls and somehow look exactly like night elves.

After playing in Harandar more closely - I noticed there is almost 0 NPCs without tusks and NONE NPCs with normal feet - all of them are 4 digit feet and heel toe. And even that 4 fingers are looking more like troll feets - with 2 larger toes in center and 2 little ones on the sides.

Again, stop with the feet thing, its an animal feet not a troll feet just because one of their toes is behind

Stop stretching something as related when there is none, All their characteristics are night elves with animal traits

Quills
Fangs
Pawns
Claws
Bat ears

And even say eyes of a cat

none of those are troll traits, those are haranir traits after they evolved from night elves.

they are all walking barefoot

Just like night elves do

Literally the sentinel in the vanilla cinematic runs barefooted

We are entering the territory of "they have two eyes like trolls.".

I dunno how many details needs to be shown to prove that haranirs are missing link between Dark trolls and Night Elves.

We will need actually details and not made up stuff that is clearly not related to anything.

Again, Night elves actually do have longer noses, especially on the male, and sharp features and proeminent jaw, like trolls.



If even seeing this image, and you think haranir came directly from trolls, and that night elves arent in between, its just coping.

[Pyrophax]

to make it make sense, since they are clearly night elves edited.

Same as Zandalari are changed NE model. Dunno what you want to say with that.

The harranir calling themselves haranir even though they did not transformed themselves yet, simple as that

No? Even ingame they are called Haranir ancestors, not haranirs.

Thats cap and makes no sense and would make them not related to trolls nor elves and be something else entirely, older than trolls and somehow look exactly like night elves.

If that makes no sense to you it didn't make it false.
They are not NEs in the past. They have 0 connection with NEs at all. Aside skeleton. They look as missing link between NEs and trolls.

Again, stop with the feet thing, its an animal feet not a troll feet just because one of their toes is behind

Funny how nose and jaw shape confirms to you something, but very similar feets with distinctive heel toe is not.

Stop stretching something as related when there is none, All their characteristics are night elves with animal traits

Quills
Fangs
Pawns
Claws
Bat ears

And even say eyes of a cat

none of those are troll traits, those are haranir traits after they evolved from night elves.

And none of that is NEs trains. But trolls have heel toe fangs. And for their feet - check animal paws - all their claws are similar size. Haranirs are not.

If even seeing this image, and you think haranir came directly from trolls, and that night elves arent in between, its just coping.

And now you accuse me with accuracy.
If jaws and noses are that prominent feature of elves - where is this noses and jaws in BE? Or Nightborne?

And speaking of which - why your "facts" based only on male models, not female? BC that doesn't line up with your idea? Ingame lore states that Haranirs leave surface like tens of thousands years before NEs even mutated from trolls. Calling something stupid or have no sense doesn't make it less true.
Also - we have 0 confirment about how look trolls 20k years ago to point something or draw parallels.

[Syegfryed]

Same as Zandalari are changed NE model.

Zandalari look like trolls

Haranir look like night elves

that is what i meant

No? Even ingame they are called Haranir ancestors, not haranirs.

Yet, in the quests, it shows haranir, exactly as they are now, hiding from Freya.


How can that be

They are not NEs in the past. They have 0 connection with NEs at all. Aside skeleton.

Aside their literal model, face and body

They look as missing link between NEs and trolls.

Except they dont, and the images prove that by themselves.

missing link have both species characteristics, haranir have zero to do with triolls besides similar fangs on the female only

Funny how nose and jaw shape confirms to you something, but very similar feets with distinctive heel toe is not.

Thats because they dont have similar feet, its entirely different and the heel toe means literally nothing when its a claw

Again, you are going off your way to say they are related because both have eyes.

And none of that is NEs trains.

Yes, thats exactly what i said, those are haranir traits, that they acquired after evolving from night elves with the druidism from the animals in harandar, those are literally the Grimlynxes mixed with the bats there

But trolls have heel toe fangs.

Those are not troll heel toe, those are animal feet:



Literally, night elves go to harandir prarrice the druidism get animal traits from the critters there -> become haranir

their "tusks" are just the tusks from the animals there, grimlynxes, these bats, their cat form, all have these tusks

If jaws and noses are that prominent feature of elves - where is this noses and jaws in BE? Or Nightborne?

huh, what i said is they were prominent on trolls.

The big noses, jaw and more sharp features are troll traits, and night elves have a bit of that, blood elves, nightborne and haranir dont have it they are even more "clean" in that regard, showing the real missing link are night elves.

BC that doesn't line up with your idea?

It does, i merely didnt want to make that many edits, but i put female night elf, female troll and haranir side by side here before.

Also - we have 0 confirment about how look trolls 20k years ago to point something or draw parallels.

imma say they did not look like elves

[Pyrophax]

snip

I really don't understand your point. Nose? Look quite trollish to me.


They have tusks, just like trolls. They have fur on skin, just like trolls. they have heel toe just like trolls. Long ears just like trolls.
Maybe they were trolls? Evolution doen't go that way, where you once loose like 5 features and then gain it back, you know.

But you know, if you insist - let it be your way.
Blizzard make Haranirs that way to player choosing - be it more trollish or more elvish appearance. With noses, with feets, with tusks, with or without heel toes, with or without fur on body.

[Syegfryed]

I really don't understand your point. Nose? Look quite trollish to me.

so we are just going to lie without shame now even with images?



In what word are you seeing the images you posted looking like this?

Those short and delicate rounded noses JUST LIKE ELVES and humans, somehow look "trollish"?

Just no dude.

They have tusks, just like trolls.

they have big fangs, just like the animals of harandar, so not like trolls.

They have fur on skin, just like trolls.

Trolls dont have that kind of fur, so another ball out

they have heel toe just like trolls.

They have a bat feet, just like the bats of harandar who have a toe in the back

Its not like trolls.

Long ears just like trolls.

you mean they have bat ears, just like the animals in harandar, and if they are long, is because they are elves, because elves have long ears

Your logic is faulty and dishonest, you are literally making up stuff or saying the most mundane thing is a sign of relation.


"haranir have two eyes, just like trolls"
"haranir have hair, just like trolls"
"haranir have a mouth, just like trolls"

LMAO.

[Joshuaj]

Like 99% certain the Haranir are meant to be entirely different from Night Elves.

Night Elves worship Elune

Haranir worship Azeroth/Aln'hara

- - - Updated - - -

I will say this, part of me wonders if they're gonna retcon Chronicle a bit, and just say that the "Dark Trolls" were actually just Haranir LMAO

I know Dark Trolls exist on Azeroth, but I wouldn't really hate it if Titan documents messed stuff up a bit and actually confused the Haranir for a group of Dark Trolls.

- - - Updated - - -

Though, given what the Midnight artbook states, the Haranir were likely just a group of Dark Trolls that evolved a different way.

[Mace]

After playing in Harandar more closely - I noticed there is almost 0 NPCs without tusks and NONE NPCs with normal feet - all of them are 4 digit feet and heel toe. And even that 4 fingers are looking more like troll feets - with 2 larger toes in center and 2 little ones on the sides.
And even after that - they are all walking barefoot, as trolls. Their Reliquary named Zur'Ashar, almost trollish Zul' prefix.
I dunno how many details needs to be shown to prove that haranirs are missing link between Dark trolls and Night Elves.
And second note - their 5toe feets probably just rudiment of some wild retcon job between TWW and Midnight.

Not a best job for sure, but at least new lore make more sence then some NEs instead of favor Cenarius druidism comes underground and mutate into half-dire devils for whatever reason, forgot how to wear their boots, grow back trollish tusks and heel toe, abandon Elune, Cenarius and Moon to follow the roots. Dark trolls - for sure, they are worship strange things from the beginning.

Look closer, I looked at every Haranir and there are more than a few that have no tusks and 5 toed feet, but yes the majority have tusks, of the smaller variety - don't know if this is intentionally set. The boss of the Blinding Vale instance for example, the Rootwarden who goes over to the lightbloom, Lightwarden Ruia doesn't have tusks. Aksem, High Priest of the Cradle has 5 toes and feet. there are 3 tusk options and only one none tusk option, if you allow an equal random choice, then only 25% of Haranir random appearances won't have tusks. If you correctly pre-set to 50% chance for non-tusk and 50% chance for one of the 3 tusk options, then we'd have seen differently, but I don't think they are that bothered.

Also you evolve from 5 to 3, usually, not hte other way around unless the transformation is forced/ by design

[Mace]

We will need actually details and not made up stuff that is clearly not related to anything.

Again, Night elves actually do have longer noses, especially on the male, and sharp features and proeminent jaw, like trolls.



If even seeing this image, and you think haranir came directly from trolls, and that night elves arent in between, its just coping.

From a bio evolution point of view - you would go from 5 digits to 3/2 - which should make Haranir the original, and then it evolves into either troll or night elf and there is some game info to back this up. It is also better for the lore overall if this is the case too, it fits better and does so in a way that finally avoids the WC3 manual retcon and has a way of making both the trolls and night elves correct- the missing info was the Haranir, but rather than the misisng link we thought they were they'd be instead the common root.

Saying that who knows where they will go - art wise, some history is warranted. Metzen did not originally plan for night elves to come from trolls. This was changed afte Wc3 was written and released and also after War of the Ancients trilogy.

You can easily tell it was an idea,... there is almost no similarity between the WC3 elf model and the troll model.. and the change is clear to see in WoW beta- wow beta had the model for troll change - it was made to look more night elven from it's previous version.

1. It was made a lot thinner than normal - closer to the night elf model
2. The face was altered to bear closer similarities to the night elf model, the original troll face was different.
3. The ears were altered to look more night elven.

All these changes came in beta, and then in wow, all of a sudden we got lore of the troll empire pre-dating the night elf one - it came at a time when Chris was being teased that Warcraft was just a rip-off of Tolkien and the nerd elitists were bashing him.

Sigh, he can be so vain - I mean all of warcaft is a rip-off - EVERYONE knows this and we all loved it. Didn't need twists to be different, it's how the races were presented that we loved and the mix match of the different pop fantasy themes in one cohesive world was cool - we didn't care that night elves were modelled mostly after Tolkien elves on middle earth - they had enough unique parts same as every other race. And elves are from Tolkien's universe anyway, what was the big deal?

SO I think also CHis went through a phase of inventing twists for the sake of it. - and he was like I know, why don't we make Elves come from trolls rather than the other way round [Tolkien has Orcs/Goblins come from Elves]

You can see it in the design - it makes no sense for the WC3 troll to naturally evolve to the Wc3 night elf - they're far too different - so it was fixed. and even then it makes little sense logically, you don't go from 3 digit toes 5, tusks to fangs etc through a passive evolution - they are clearly different species line

But it was a nice kick that went down well with the elf hating crowd , and kinda pissed off the rest.. not one of his better twists. But it caused controversy, not hte endearing kind though, it was popular but for hte wrong reasons and not an enhancing effect.. it's a mocking jest to elf haters, and doesn't improve their experience or increase their love of Warcraft any more, it just makes them laugh at other players who lie elves, and then it pisses off the elf lovers - who in turn diminishes their love for the lore and the race - net lose. He should have thought a bit more of it. The little joke was a lot more costly and continued to devalue the lore built in Warcraft 3.

Was it necessary? All the troll lore could have fit after the Sundering - it would have made the post-sundering ears a bit more eventful for night elves and owould have avoided an un-necessary retcon as well as creating the mistakes it caused.

However I say this assuming this was the intention for real - it could have always been the intention, that after the retcon he would introduce a missing link or instead a common ancestor where he would hten explain it all - it coudl be the HAranir were the concept he wanted to do that with, and TWW/Mignight -World Soul Saga created the opportunity that might otherwise never have come.

- - - Updated - - -

Also the way the whole story is constructed, it makes better sense for the Haranir to come first.

Presumably, the goddess is actually Azeroth - if you haven't figureed that out. As it's the Haranir that hear her call, it is likely she creates them first - but only some of them answer the call to the oots - some look to the moon and stars becoming the night elves and some turned away from going deepe looking instead tot he loa - the trolls.

If Azeroth did create them, then it makes sense the original would hear her voice first, and those that rejected it, are then able to hear the voice of hte goddess Elune for one group and the other group come to substitute her with the Loa.

This off course it making assumption about Azeroth and Elune - after all it could turn out that Azeroth and Elune are the same or related in some way not yet revealed, though I doubt this.

[Syegfryed]

From a bio evolution point of view - you would go from 5 digits to 3/2 - which should make Haranir the original

No? thats not how it work at all.

[Lahis]

No? thats not how it work at all.

All the hooved animals tell otherwise. They had digits in the past, but hooves were more beneficial for their locomotion so they lost them. Bird wings have also lost their digits.

[Syegfryed]

All the hooved animals tell otherwise. They had digits in the past, but hooves were more beneficial for their locomotion so they lost them. Bird wings have also lost their digits.

Yeah i know that, im saying it doesnt make sense in his logic here in wow.