Haranir, trolls and elves - Origins [spoilers]

[tufy123]

The graph is obviously not perfect, mistakes will have been made (especially with the trolls), and I couldn't be bothered to label each line (if you know enough lore you can figure them out yourself anyway), because I didn't make it to be a perfect representation but to illustrate the point that "race" family trees are extremely misleading. There aren't necessarily "missing links", just missing information on what exactly caused the divergences.

One thing that sticks out: Void Elves diverge from Blood Elves, not High Elves and Felblood Elves should too (that‘s the Kael extremists, right?).

[Pyrophax]

One thing that sticks out: Void Elves diverge from Blood Elves, not High Elves and Felblood Elves should too (that‘s the Kael extremists, right?).

Its probably something like that.


If we count artbook and potential retcons/mistakes - then line go from NE to Haranirs, not from missing link from DT and NE.

[Aucald]

I know this is tangential to the discussion of the Haranir and their placement on the timeline or evolutionary chart, but it's elf-adjacent enough to be relevant, I suppose. There's been an open question as to what happened to the Wretched post-TBC and going into Midnight, people wondering if they were made extinct, or had simply died off, and so forth. Doing the Prey hunts in Midnight I happened upon two Prey targets who definitely seem to fit the bill as potential Wretched, although they don't use the TBC model for Wretched NPCs. Lost Theldrin and Neydra the Starving are both nominally Blood Elves, albeit unhealthily pale and bald, and both have quest dialogue and spoken lines that illustrate a powerful hunger for magic.

So are these two Wretched somehow still alive today?

[Mehrunes]

Its probably something like that.
<image snip>

If we count artbook and potential retcons/mistakes - then line go from NE to Haranirs, not from missing link from DT and NE.

If we're counting undead, then there should be mummified undead under the Forest Trolls as a large part of the Mossflayer Tribe fell to the Scourge. Also, after recent-ish changes, Darkfallen is the term for all undead Elves, not just another term for the San'layn, so there's no need separating the two. Finally, technically the Crystal Satyr from Crystalsong Forest are completely unrelated to normal Satyr and have a different origin.

[Pyrophax]

I know this is tangential to the discussion of the Haranir and their placement on the timeline or evolutionary chart, but it's elf-adjacent enough to be relevant, I suppose. There's been an open question as to what happened to the Wretched post-TBC and going into Midnight, people wondering if they were made extinct, or had simply died off, and so forth. Doing the Prey hunts in Midnight I happened upon two Prey targets who definitely seem to fit the bill as potential Wretched, although they don't use the TBC model for Wretched NPCs. Lost Theldrin and Neydra the Starving are both nominally Blood Elves, albeit unhealthily pale and bald, and both have quest dialogue and spoken lines that illustrate a powerful hunger for magic.

So are these two Wretched somehow still alive today?

I always thought that Wretched are elves with no-limit mana-thirst? If they don't get enough mana - they shrinks into low-level mobs in old Silvermoon.



After BC and Sunwell reignition - mana should be available for all of them without limit? Or how much they can draw from it? Its quite unclear way for thalassian elves take mana from Sunwell.

I have 2 theories for that living Wretched based on their connection with Sunwell.
1. They started to "wretch" just before Sunwell Reignition and that left their marks on them - both physically and mentally. Not enough for full shrink but for pale skin and with a thirst that cannot be quenched.
2. If all elves have individual "channel" to Sunwell. And their "channel" in not enough for their mana-thirst.

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If we're counting undead, then there should be mummified undead under the Forest Trolls as a large part of the Mossflayer Tribe fell to the Scourge. Also, after recent-ish changes, Darkfallen is the term for all undead Elves, not just another term for the San'layn, so there's no need separating the two. Finally, technically the Crystal Satyr from Crystalsong Forest are completely unrelated to normal Satyr and have a different origin.

First image from net with that info. Not looking in details for lower part with HEs honestly.
I think its odd to add undead creatures to this list too. They are not some branch of evolution/mutation. Just dead animated bodies. Same as trolls or elves.
Also - worgens there means elvish Worgens - but that is not a mutation but a curse. Same as Sand Trolls are placed separate from Jungle despite they are direct descendants etc etc.

[Aucald]

I always thought that Wretched are elves with no-limit mana-thirst? If they don't get enough mana - they shrinks into low-level mobs in old Silvermoon.

After BC and Sunwell reignition - mana should be available for all of them without limit? Or how much they can draw from it? Its quite unclear way for thalassian elves take mana from Sunwell.

I have 2 theories for that living Wretched based on their connection with Sunwell.
1. They started to "wretch" just before Sunwell Reignition and that left their marks on them - both physically and mentally. Not enough for full shrink but for pale skin and with a thirst that cannot be quenched.
2. If all elves have individual "channel" to Sunwell. And their "channel" in not enough for their mana-thirst.

Same, and both theories are equally plausible. Another possibility is that they abandoned the original TBC Wretched model due to its limitations (e.g., no female version) and instead went with a modified, higher-def Blood/High Elf model for the Wretched. As for why they're still Wretched and mana-starved, perhaps transformation into one of the Wretched actually fully cuts off a given elf because they're now essentially a new species or type of being, no longer intrinsically connected to the Sunwell the same way the High and Blood Elves are. Would explain why they're still starving despite the Sunwell's reignition at the close of TBC. What's amazing either way is the fact that they're still somehow alive, at least until Alastor puts out a hit on them.

[Resplendent Quetzal]

Nomenclature and taxonomy aside, I'd say the real enemy in terms of this discussion is the Haranir's placement in the general timeline of the history of the trolls and Night Elves. Right now, we can really only speculate about when and where the Haranir came to be based on a visual retelling of their own history, using elements we can sort of quantify to date them and slot them into the basic timeline. So there's room to debate about exactitude and the potential maximum age of the Haranir as a group, meaning that even on your cladogram above, where they might fit in becomes an open question.

Sure, but for the purpose of something like this we don't actually need to know exactly when they split of. Knowing that they weren't part of the branch that became all the elves, nor the branch that became all the trolls, but are on the branch from which both Dark Trolls and Night Elves also split off, is enough to give an exact placement of them. There is no further need to determine any more points of divergence for them, because unless Blizzard got their wires crossed and the Haranir are in fact on the same branch that became all the elves but not the Dark Trolls (and it wouldn't surprise me, given the visual clues), this is it - we know where they fit.

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One thing that sticks out: Void Elves diverge from Blood Elves, not High Elves and Felblood Elves should too (that‘s the Kael extremists, right?).

I made that thing in a very short time while sleep deprived, so as said mistakes will have crept in.

That said, you are likely misinterpreting what the tree actually says because I didn't label the paths of divergence. You really need to read the green diamonds as "everything to the right of this was the same group once upon a time".

Anyway, Felblood Elves are the Blood Elves ones who were rewarded and transformed by the Legion for staying on Outland. The groups on the other branches are all the Blood Elves who weren't and who were either transformed for subsequent different reasons, or who managed to avoid such further transformation at all.

It gets confusing because what it's really saying is something along the lines of "some Blood Elves became Felblood Elves, all Felblood Elves were once Blood Elves".

The Void Elf thing is confusing because technically there are different paths of initial divergence that converge again later. Some Void Elves are transformed High Elves, some of them are transformed Blood Elves, and I couldn't be bothered slapping both of them on, because I wasn't trying to be completionist but just illustrate living groups splintering as siblings rather than being "ancestors" of each others. If I wanted the thing to be complete, there'd be a lot more on there, and potentially include paths that ended with the deaths of all their members.

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Its probably something like that.

[snip]

If we count artbook and potential retcons/mistakes - then line go from NE to Haranirs, not from missing link from DT and NE.

This thing is highly misleading, and really should not be used/structured that way. Every group on that chart is a "cousin" to every other group on it (some more distant than others, but cousins nonetheless), but it's made to look like parents and child instead, and it's leading people into making the wrong conclusions.

[Aucald]

Sure, but for the purpose of something like this we don't actually need to know exactly when they split of. Knowing that they weren't part of the branch that became all the elves, nor the branch that became all the trolls, but are on the branch from which both Dark Trolls and Night Elves also split off, is enough to give an exact placement of them. There is no further need to determine any more points of divergence for them, because unless Blizzard got their wires crossed and the Haranir are in fact on the same branch that became all the elves but not the Dark Trolls (and it wouldn't surprise me, given the visual clues), this is it - we know where they fit.

The when of things is pretty important when hashing out taxonomy and lines of descent. Even in real life, we're discovering all the time that anomalous occurrences in the fossil record are changing the known history of when certain ancient animals came into existence and when their relative heydays were, for example. There's a non-zero chance that the Haranir predate even the Zandalari as beings, meaning that the point of divergence for both trolls and elves could be way earlier than previously thought, and perhaps a whole other civilization of sentient beings existed on the Kalimdorian supercontinent between the fall of the Black Empire and the rise of the Zandalari Empire. Mind you, as I said above, I don't think this is the case - but it's not outside the possible, either. So, all in all, timing is a pretty significant factor here.

[Mace]

Haranir that died off, became something else, went on to become Night Elven commoners that didn't abandon their Druidic roots, or half a dozen other possibilities so far unaccounted for.

Why would night elven commoners be a possibility? If I didn’t know you better I’d say you added that to have a dig at me, didn’t you

[Aucald]

Why would night elven commoners be a possibility? You added that to have a dig at me, didn’t you! But I’ll take the red herring. You full well know commoner night elf is still kaldorei it’s caste societal structure not a different race.

Not sure why that would be insulting or a dig at you or anyone, really. Wasn't meant to imply Night Elven commoners were a different species from the Highborne, either, just that maybe the ideology of the Haranir persisted a bit more among the non-elite Kaldorei as opposed to those who more fully embraced Elune and the Arcane. I would also assume it's likely Cenarius had some form of relationship with the ancient Haranir, given both his presence in Hyjal and his status as a Wild God and Ancient. He was likely one of the Loa the early Dark Trolls and Haranir worshipped, alongside others such as Agamaggan, Ursol, and Ursoc.

The Haranir specifically mentioned as following the stars obviously become the night elves - commoner night elves are included in night elf - the stars has always been their pursuit, not nature, nature was something they showed great care for and reverence in their early days attracting Cenarius and there is a clear love for it. But it is not the only love. The affinity of the night elf is arcane and the chief devotion is Elune. Nature is loved , but only amongst the Druid class of night elf does it supersede the arcane or Elune.

The Haranir legends actually don't mention that specifically, but it is strongly inferred to be what they mean. We have no idea who was actually included in the description or to what degree, either.

The other Haranir that went off are shown to have troll models - this is what I wanted you to explain.

Some of the Haranir depicted in their visualized memories are also shown to have the more modern models of the Haranir we see in Harandar, something they wouldn't possess before the journey, or before actually evolving, for that matter. The models shown are likely more a gameplay contrivance than a strict lore one, meant to convey difference without necessarily being exact.

[Pyrophax]

At official art they look more trollish then NElvish. And tusks that resemble drogbars

[username993720]

https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets...jpg?1775669051

At official art they look more trollish then NElvish. And tusks that resemble drogbars

They look like Night elves.
And i believe they're supposed to be Bugbears, like the Drogbar.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

they look more trollish then NElvish.

They look like Night elves.

Utterly amazing-- two different subjective perspectives in play here, yet both phrased as objective truths.

[username993720]

Utterly amazing-- two different subjective perspectives in play here, yet both phrased as objective truths.

You gotta be blind to not see they are somewhat based on Druidic night elves, like the Druids of the Claw.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

You gotta be blind to not see they are somewhat based on Druidic night elves, like the Druids of the Claw.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FcI-v8vWIAUMK_h.jpg

Yes, they also look like night elves. Nobody is disputing that. Thanks for agreeing.

[Pyrophax]

You gotta be blind to not see they are somewhat based on Druidic night elves, like the Druids of the Claw.

I see no heel-toe, no tusks, no fur on body, no 4-toe feet. Only purple skin and somehow similar ears.
Trolls at least have all of that.

[Combatbutler]

True, but I still find it better than the previous retcon to make elves from trolls directly

Why though, the haranir are objectively inferior to trolls, they are a pitiful culture and people sitting in their huts having achieved absolutely nothing of note in their entire history.

[Aucald]

Utterly amazing-- two different subjective perspectives in play here, yet both phrased as objective truths.

People have largely forgotten what subjectivity is.

[username993720]

I see no heel-toe, no tusks, no fur on body, no 4-toe feet. Only purple skin and somehow similar ears.
Trolls at least have all of that.

Purple skin, orange eyes, claws, bushy black\white hair, body paint. Fur is worn, not grown.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

People have largely forgotten what subjectivity is.

It just begs the question why engage with the usual suspects in these kind of discussions if they cannot comprehend this.. especially if it is identified, addressed, and ultimately ignored.

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Purple skin, orange eyes, claws, bushy black\white hair, body paint. Fur is worn, not grown.

You're losing touch with the point by trying to win semantics.