Developer Insight: Hearthsteel Virtual Currency and Housing in Midnight

[Biomega]

I disagree. MTX have no place in games where you already have to pay to access content.

Why, though? I agree if they're unfair and/or predatory that's a problem, of course it is. But regular MTX for additional stuff? What, precisely, is the problem with that?

[Ghostile]

Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Runescape, Final Fantasy XI, Age of Conan, Star Wars Galaxies...

Do you ever get tired of stating blatantly false things on this forum?

That is a weird part of my post to get caught into, lmao.

Ninespine, meet hyperbole.

[Nerph-]

That is a weird part of my post to get caught into, lmao.

Ninespine, meet hyperbole.

Edit: Lmao I need to learn to read

[kranur]

Why, though? I agree if they're unfair and/or predatory that's a problem, of course it is. But regular MTX for additional stuff? What, precisely, is the problem with that?

Simply put, because it's greedy. People are required to spend extra if they like a particular cosmetic in a game they already paid for. I can obviously understand it in f2p or b2p live service games that keep adding content like poe2 because they need to generate revenue, but in a game with a sub and box cost? I will simply never sympatize with that crap. The only thing worse than this is single player games with shops.

[Biomega]

Simply put, because it's greedy. People are required to spend extra if they like a particular cosmetic in a game they already paid for. I can obviously understand it in f2p or b2p live service games that keep adding content like poe2 because they need to generate revenue, but in a game with a sub and box cost? I will simply never sympatize with that crap. The only thing worse than this is single player games with shops.

But that's assuming that cosmetics just pop into existence and they're faced with a choice of either selling them or giving them away for free - in which case selling them would totally be greedy, I agree.

That's not how it works, though.

A lot of the MTX cosmetics wouldn't get made at all if there was no MTX to sell them. Making these things costs money, and that money has to come from somewhere. If there is no revenue option for those things, they don't get made. In which case not only do you not have an option to buy something you may like, but in many models this also supports a concurrent free track of things that people who don't pay get on the backs of those who do. You're taking that away, too.

Now, I'm of course not saying there isn't a lot of shenanigans going on with this where there's obfuscation and deliberate withholding of content etc. - that's a problem, and that's what I'd file under "unfair". But the principle of offering people extra stuff if they want, perhaps even with extra stuff for free thrown in, is not in itself a conceptual problem IMO. What's a problem are perverse incentives leading to corrupt systems, but corrupt systems are always a problem and should always be combated and resisted, whether they're tied in with MTX or not. So that's not really a good argument.

The kind of intrinsic value of not having in MTX in anything you bought access to I simply do not think has much merit, if any at all.

[NineSpine]

That is a weird part of my post to get caught into, lmao.

Ninespine, meet hyperbole.

Hyperbole is supposed to be rooted in reality. That’s what makes it a tool to make a point. If it’s totally normal for an MMO not to have MTX for housing, the hyperbole doesn’t make sense.

- - - Updated - - -

But that's assuming that cosmetics just pop into existence and they're faced with a choice of either selling them or giving them away for free - in which case selling them would totally be greedy, I agree.

That's not how it works, though.

A lot of the MTX cosmetics wouldn't get made at all if there was no MTX to sell them. Making these things costs money, and that money has to come from somewhere. If there is no revenue option for those things, they don't get made. In which case not only do you not have an option to buy something you may like, but in many models this also supports a concurrent free track of things that people who don't pay get on the backs of those who do. You're taking that away, too.

Now, I'm of course not saying there isn't a lot of shenanigans going on with this where there's obfuscation and deliberate withholding of content etc. - that's a problem, and that's what I'd file under "unfair". But the principle of offering people extra stuff if they want, perhaps even with extra stuff for free thrown in, is not in itself a conceptual problem IMO. What's a problem are perverse incentives leading to corrupt systems, but corrupt systems are always a problem and should always be combated and resisted, whether they're tied in with MTX or not. So that's not really a good argument.

The kind of intrinsic value of not having in MTX in anything you bought access to I simply do not think has much merit, if any at all.

Things are not budgeted at this granular level you are describing.

MTX devalues the in game achievements of players, therefore it is always a negative for the general play experience.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I disagree. MTX have no place in games where you already have to pay to access content.

Unfortunately, this is an ought/is issue. MTX make money, and there are only 2 ways to stop it:

1) Customers stop buying them
2) Laws are passed to prevent it.

Good luck with either of those in the US!

Maybe the community will make enough of a stink that they'll fear trashing the brand, but I doubt it. Probably not a decision made by the dev team anyway

[NineSpine]

Unfortunately, this is an ought/is issue. MTX make money, and there are only 2 ways to stop it:

1) Customers stop buying them
2) Laws are passed to prevent it.

Good luck with either of those in the US!

Maybe the community will make enough of a stink that they'll fear trashing the brand, but I doubt it. Probably not a decision made by the dev team anyway

Runescape (not classic) is running a vote right now to remove the bulk of their really nasty MTX. It is possible for games to go in that direction, and companies do often make decisions to cater to different niches. For example, major record labels do not ONLY sign massive pop artists even though those are the most profitable. They will also cater to niche audiences because the investment is still worth it.

[kranur]

But that's assuming that cosmetics just pop into existence and they're faced with a choice of either selling them or giving them away for free - in which case selling them would totally be greedy, I agree.

That's not how it works, though.

A lot of the MTX cosmetics wouldn't get made at all if there was no MTX to sell them. Making these things costs money, and that money has to come from somewhere. If there is no revenue option for those things, they don't get made. In which case not only do you not have an option to buy something you may like, but in many models this also supports a concurrent free track of things that people who don't pay get on the backs of those who do. You're taking that away, too.

Now, I'm of course not saying there isn't a lot of shenanigans going on with this where there's obfuscation and deliberate withholding of content etc. - that's a problem, and that's what I'd file under "unfair". But the principle of offering people extra stuff if they want, perhaps even with extra stuff for free thrown in, is not in itself a conceptual problem IMO. What's a problem are perverse incentives leading to corrupt systems, but corrupt systems are always a problem and should always be combated and resisted, whether they're tied in with MTX or not. So that's not really a good argument.

The kind of intrinsic value of not having in MTX in anything you bought access to I simply do not think has much merit, if any at all.

Do you have proof that those get created out of an extra budget and not just cut to be sold separately?
And evem of they do, a single cosmetic costing almost half of an expansion is just outrageous.
If you ask me instead of having an item on the store I'd rather not have it at all in the game.

[Biomega]

Do you have proof that those get created out of an extra budget and not just cut to be sold separately?

Other than the fact that creating things costs money? Do you think they just appear for free?

I already covered the case where things that are made anyway get cut off to be sold separately - and I agree that's unfair. But you can't tell me you seriously think that all of them work like this. Look at some games with MTX - they have a massive catalogue of elaborate things on offer. Those didn't just happen as part of a main game with no thought towards additional revenue.

Again, to reiterate: I do not in any way disagree that there's egregious MTX and unfair, predatory, exploitative business models surrounding MTX. And I think those are all hugely problematic and in dire need of restriction and regulation.

But that's not a problem inherent in MTX in principle, that's just a particular case of anti-consumer implementation of MTX. That doesn't mean all MTX must be anti-consumer.

And evem of they do, a single cosmetic costing almost half of an expansion is just outrageous.

Well, as long as it's a fair and transparent offering, I see no problem with letting the market determine the price for purely cosmetic items. You want to offer a sparkly pony for $5,000? Fine. If there's a sucker to buy it, that's just economics working as intended. As long as there's no bullshit attached like loot boxes, price obfuscation, etc. that is just a run-off-the-mill regular ol' retail deal. No different from some brand-name shirt or bag or whatever going for astronomical sums, if there's idiots to buy them fully informed by all means, who am I to say they can't or shouldn't.

If you ask me instead of having an item on the store I'd rather not have it at all in the game.

It's fine if you don't like it, but that's different from telling other people they can't have it, either. You don't like it - don't buy it. But you not liking it doesn't mean that you now get to say it shouldn't be available at all, even for people who would like it. Their preference matters every bit as much as yours, wouldn't you say?

Again, with the caveat of course that it's all done fairly and transparently.

And just to be clear: I'm entirely with you. I have zero interest in MTX offers. I haven't paid real money for games in any way other than subscriptions or box price. Ever. Doesn't interest me, doesn't hold any value for me. But that doesn't mean I think my preference should apply to everyone. I keep what I like separate from what I think is reasonable.