Combat Philosophy and Addon Disarmament in Midnight

[Ghostile]

Ion can have the wrong opinion about this all he wants - his actions are on the bubble of shattering the entire long-term dedicated playerbase this game has.

That's why he made this post, at an attempt to assuage. Instead, he just spent 10 paragraphs blaming addon authors for complaining. This company is impossibly tone-deaf, and the failure starts at the top, it seems.

Considering this is "hitting hardest" on mythic raiders who arent exactly fans of 400 auras per raid, nah, we're not quiting.

[SL1200]

Blizzard is just putting their heads down and running with this. I hate it when they do these things.

[Flarelaine]

Ion can have the wrong opinion about this all he wants - his actions are on the bubble of shattering the entire long-term dedicated playerbase this game has.

Been playing since Vanilla.

Will not quit over this.

[Snakepit]

Sometimes (even if more rarely) Blizz does get it right. I remember when they added the Ping feature - most people (including me) were like "this is useless AND will also get abused to death by people in pugs and will be annoying spam nightmare". Turned out to be SUPER useful, not abused and overall one of the best additions to the game imo. So let's hope they'll eventually get the stock UI right and things will not be as dire.

[Osmeric]

Blizzard is just putting their heads down and running with this. I hate it when they do these things.

I remember when casuals were told it was Blizzard's game, not theirs, and to quit if you don't like it.

[Glorious Leader]

If even Blizzard admit this kind of feedback, it must be an even bigger deal than people think:

when we release an encounter that puts up very little resistance, we often get feedback that the boss was unsatisfying

This indicates that contrary to what some people on certain forums may purport, people by and large don't actually much like pushover content.

Thats not at all what this indicates. It merely indicates they are sensitive to this concern thats it. That feedback could be from literally one person for all we know.

[SoleQueen]

Right now, if you actually logged in on beta, you would see that you can recreate 95% of elvui and plater functions with like 3 addons, so no idea what the "long-term dedicated playerbase" would quit over.

This right here is what gets me. because people are crying, kicking and screaming, meanwhile most of the addons I use by choice are working without any issues. It's mainly all the ones that I get forced to download that stopped working.

- - - Updated - - -

Considering this is "hitting hardest" on mythic raiders who arent exactly fans of 400 auras per raid, nah, we're not quiting.

literally this, players who are good at the game but feel like they need to have these tools are mostly actually supportive of these changes, It really feels like it's just people who are scared they wont be able to play well without the tools that seem to be doing the most bitching about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Thats not at all what this indicates. It merely indicates they are sensitive to this concern thats it. That feedback could be from literally one person for all we know.

If it was from 1 person they wouldn't mention it, it being mentioned is a sign that they get it from a LOT of people.

Remember gallywix RWF... so many people had a tantrum because it ended sooner than they would have liked and started saying the boss was a joke even though most of them would not have ever even killed it themselves.

[Biomega]

Thats not at all what this indicates. It merely indicates they are sensitive to this concern thats it. That feedback could be from literally one person for all we know.

Yeah I'm sure Blizzard is getting 1-guy'd here, mhmmm

Though I suppose it's possible I am. Right now.

[Glorious Leader]

This right here is what gets me. because people are crying, kicking and screaming, meanwhile most of the addons I use by choice are working without any issues. It's mainly all the ones that I get forced to download that stopped working.

- - - Updated - - -



literally this, players who are good at the game but feel like they need to have these tools are mostly actually supportive of these changes, It really feels like it's just people who are scared they wont be able to play well without the tools that seem to be doing the most bitching about it.

- - - Updated - - -



If it was from 1 person they wouldn't mention it, it being mentioned is a sign that they get it from a LOT of people.

Remember gallywix RWF... so many people had a tantrum because it ended sooner than they would have liked and started saying the boss was a joke even though most of them would not have ever even killed it themselves.

If "so many" as a sample size is determined by forum complaints then i still question its relevance as feedback. Okay its not one. Its two. The assertion that it must be an appreciable amount of players is not very well supported.

[SoleQueen]

If "so many" as a sample size is determined by forum complaints then i still question its relevance as feedback. Okay its not one. Its two. The assertion that it must be an appreciable amount of players is not very well supported.

You don't really need to support information that is given as fact. I'm not sure what you think is happening but Blizzard doesn't just outright lie about what feedback they receive and I don't really understand why you think they would, it doesn't make a lot of sense for them as a developer that relies on subscriptions and cash shop sales for money to lie about what players want. Do you really think that players want bosses to be all patchwerk style encounters? Because it seems to me like that is what you're suggesting here by implying that they are lying about feedback.

[WowIsDead64]

Regardless of the "true reason", it has always been ridiculous that in order to play the game you need to mod it.

Problem is - different players have different tastes. That's why modding - is big part of game's success. And it's obvious, that removing modding and giving standard interface to everyone => direct way to fail. But who cares, if M$ thinks, that console release => massive profit. And that Wow release on XBox would make it popular vs competitors like PS. Real truth - it won't. Again. Consoles had their niche back in old times, when console was about hardware acceleration for graphics and sound + games, perfectly optimized for that hardware, that allowed console games to jump above their heads. For example NES had 16bit quality at beginning of 90s and PS1, that was equivalent to 40MHz 386/486, competed to Pentiums. But now consoles are vendor-locked PCs with restricted controls and overpriced exclusive games. Do we really need them?

[Glorious Leader]

You don't really need to support information that is given as fact. I'm not sure what you think is happening but Blizzard doesn't just outright lie about what feedback they receive and I don't really understand why you think they would, it doesn't make a lot of sense for them as a developer that relies on subscriptions and cash shop sales for money to lie about what players want. Do you really think that players want bosses to be all patchwerk style encounters? Because it seems to me like that is what you're suggesting here by implying that they are lying about feedback.

I never said the feedback was a lie, Im sure they did receive it. The contention I have is that it was particularly widespread. The original post I quoted that it must be a prevailing sentiment as opposed to the developers simple being sensitive to the concern.

[Duese]

Holy fuck dude. The debuffs go on random people -> The debuffs are random. Way to not even begin to try and critically think and consider what I'm saying.

We're clearly talking about different debuffs, because unlike your video-watching, I was literally progging this boss on Mythic 2 weeks ago, and the mechanic I'm talking about, the weakaura literally assigned us different locations based on world markers and who had the debuff.

Also, pointing at a private aura, ya know, the system added because addons were solving too many mechanics, as some kind of proof that addons don't solve mechanics is certainly an argument-style


The difference(in your example) is that one is a human saying it. That's it.

WHAT DEBUFF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THEN?!?! I can't read your mind but apparently that's what I'm supposed to do here since whatever you think you are talking about isn't what you are writing down.

So, my previous post to you still stands and you are more than welcome to address it. Rather than stroke your epeen about your supposed mythic progression, take the time to actually put together an actual response that actually makes sense.

Further to that, when you say "a human is saying it", you are admitting the there's nothing actually wrong with getting the information and that the information is still going to be put right in front of the player. You just destroyed the entire argument you are making to remove addons.

- - - Updated - - -

You’re mixing up two different things and treating them like they can’t coexist:

- Blizzard is responsible for the design problems.

- Addons change how those problems are experienced and how urgently Blizzard fixes them.



Both are true. Blizzard created the flaws, yes — but addons mask those flaws in practice. When players bypass a problem with third-party tools, the visible urgency of that problem drops. That doesn’t remove Blizzard’s responsibility; it affects their prioritization. That’s the entire point you keep missing.

How am I missing the point when I point out that the second one is still Blizzard's problem, not an addon problem?

You are making excuses for Blizzard.

Your example about older mechanics being redesigned and no longer needing addons actually reinforces my argument: Blizzard fixed those mechanics because the flaws were directly experienced by players and couldn’t be bypassed with community scripting. When a design problem is universally felt, Blizzard is forced to redesign it. When addons neutralize it, that pressure weakens. It’s cause and effect, not a contradiction.

So Blizzard CAN fix the problems but they choose not to?

Say it with me now, that's a Blizzard problem, not an addon problem.

You also reacted to obvious hyperbole as if it were a literal claim. When I said “seven million WeakAuras,” that wasn’t a statistic — it was exaggeration to illustrate how bloated and dependency-heavy the WA ecosystem has become. Treating that as a factual claim and then building part of your argument around it is exactly why you’re missing the nuance of what I’m saying.

NO SHIT YOU WERE EXAGGERATING. Did you even read my comment? I told you that I saw it as an exaggeration. But here we are again with you being the same person from the start who was so immature that you couldn't even read my comments. Why can't you just realize that arrogantly ignoring other people's comments isn't going to accomplish anything.

If you take rhetorical emphasis literally, there’s no way to have a proper debate with you. And if you can’t even recognise hyperbole in service of making a point, you have zero chance of correctly understanding anything an actual developer says.

Read. The. Comment.

And I want to point out, you just completely ignored the entire argument I made there with your little deflection that made it obvious you didn't read what I said.

As for the quote you posted from Ion, I have one thing to say:

ADDONS ARE NOT GOING AWAY. ONLY COMBAT ADDONS THAT EFFECTIVELY AUTOMATE CALLOUTS ARE. HE WAS CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT ALL ADDONS, AND THAT’S NOT WHAT IS GETTING TAKEN AWAY, SO YES — YOU ARE LITERALLY INTERPRETING IT WRONG.

YOU DO NOT GET TO CHANGE WHAT HE SAID BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT YOUR NARRATIVE. HE LITERALLY SPELLED OUT THE ADDONS THAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT AND THEY WERE COMBAT ADDONS.

On top of that, you keep insisting that acknowledging Blizzard’s responsibility must somehow mean addons have no role at all in the state of the game. That’s a false binary. Blizzard is responsible for encounter clarity and addons influenced how those clarity issues were handled, ignored, or postponed. Responsibility doesn’t erase influence.

More excuses. I don't care about excuses. Why can't you realize this? There's literally nothing that prevented them from fixing the problems with the ecounters. They CHOSE not to fix them. It wasn't the addons that caused them to CHOOSE not to do it.

Do you have any evidence that addons PREVENTED Blizzard from fixing encounters? You have no problems highlighting that addons made Blizzard CHOOSE not to fix encounters, but them choosing not to fix them doesn't mean that it's the addons fault.

You’re also being silly when you compare combat addons to Discord, raid markers, or boss bars. Voice chat and markers coordinate people; combat addons automate interpretation, prediction, and decision-making. Those aren’t equivalents, and pretending they are doesn’t strengthen your argument.

And here it is. This is where you make it absolutely clear once again that you have ZERO CLUE what people are using addons for. This is exactly the problem with this discussion because you make these claims that are so grossly ignorant that it's clear you shouldn't be in this discussion at all.

The vast majority of all addons don't "automate interpretation, prediction, and decision-making". Go ahead, actually look through the addons being used in Manaforge right now. Do you know what almost every single one is doing? Coordination. "Group 1 to Star". "Melee to Green." It's the same role that raid markers, discord and other coordination avenues are doing.

This is a fundamental problem with your argument. You don't have a clear line of what you don't allow and do allow. The arguments you are making absolutely apply to everything from raid markers to discord. You can call it ridiculous, but it's not, it's just not ignoring how your position applies.

You keep implying that I’m saying addons “cause” Blizzard’s design issues or that blizzard can't fix things because of addons. I’m not. Blizzard causes the issues; addons influence how visible and urgent those issues appear in live gameplay. That’s not deflection — it’s the actual dynamic that’s existed for two decades. Blizzard don't fix them because currently a lot of the time the community does.

No, I'm not saying addons cause Blizzard's design issues. Blizzard causes the design issues. You are ABSOLUTELY ARGUING that Blizzard ISN'T fixing them because of addons. You are unequivocally making excuses for why Blizzard is choosing NOT to fix addons.

You’re interpreting every disagreement as dishonesty. I’m simply not reaching the same conclusion you are, and instead of engaging with the logic of my position, you’re insisting that “you didn’t address my points” because I didn’t arrive at the answer you expect.

I'm insisting that you aren't addressing the points becauser YOU AREN'T ADDRESSING THE POINTS. You didn't even GIVE an answer. If you are going to lie about what you are doing, then don't be surprised when you get called out as a liar.

I understand your argument. I just don’t agree with it. And that’s all this comes down to. I have no changed my position, at all since the start of this conversation, your original post still was not worth reading, and so far I'm seeing no reason to talk to you because you have demonstrated that you can't be rational, logical or level headed.. I know you are really angry about this but you need to get a grip and come to terms with the fact that some of the combat addons you use are going..

I don't care if you change your position. My entire purpose was to highlight that you are not arguing with any logic at all. I did that. Your entire position has been reduced down to nothing more than making excuses for Blizzard. You keep saying it over and over and I have to thank you for making it so obvious. When you say Blizzard CHOOSES not to fix problems because of addons, you are admitting that addons are the excuse, not the problem.

Even worse though, throughout these posts, you've done the same thing to me. You've made excuse after excuse to not have to address the points that I've made. You literally can't even support your own positions against mine and yet somehow still claim that my original comment wasn't even worse it. It's really cute and it just makes your downfall so much more hilarious.

Let's just walk through the logic one more time since you can't seem to figure it out:

Blizzard creates a poor encounter design.
Blizzard chooses not to fix poor encounter design.
Blizzard is the problem.

It's so simple when you remove the excuses that you are making for them.


- - - Updated - - -



dude this guy is so scared that he wont be able to play without these addons, you can see it in his responses I'm checking out from the convo good luck.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I just actually understand what's happening and I'm not simping for blizzard like you are. And I'll still be better than you after this, if I'm still even playing at all. It's just more evidence to show you don't actually understand what addons are doing in game.

[Stickiler]

Further to that, when you say "a human is saying it", you are admitting the there's nothing actually wrong with getting the information and that the information is still going to be put right in front of the player. You just destroyed the entire argument you are making to remove addons.

My whole argument is that it's fine, as long as a player is saying it. I didn't destroy any part of my argument, cos that's been my argument the whole time. In fact Blizzard is also fine with it as long as a human is saying it, just not if it's automated via an Addon.

[Duese]

My whole argument is that it's fine, as long as a player is saying it. I didn't destroy any part of my argument, cos that's been my argument the whole time. In fact Blizzard is also fine with it as long as a human is saying it, just not if it's automated via an Addon.

Yes, you did. There is no advantage between a playing saying it or an addon it. If an addon can do something that a player can't, then that would support your position, but as it stands, the addon is doing nothing different than what the players can.

And let's go ahead and remind you that Blizzard allows boss timers! So, they are also fine with the game announcing it as well.

So, your position isn't even supported by Blizzard.

I also noticed you abandoned your argument about the debuffs. Guess you were just full of crap there too.

Once again, the fundamental problem with your position is that there is no clear line between what violates YOUR beliefs and what doesn't. This is exactly why you need to take some time and actually LEARN what you are trying to argue so that you can actually make a strong argument instead of the desperation you are posting now.

- - - Updated - - -

You don't really need to support information that is given as fact. I'm not sure what you think is happening but Blizzard doesn't just outright lie about what feedback they receive and I don't really understand why you think they would, it doesn't make a lot of sense for them as a developer that relies on subscriptions and cash shop sales for money to lie about what players want. Do you really think that players want bosses to be all patchwerk style encounters? Because it seems to me like that is what you're suggesting here by implying that they are lying about feedback.

Just a reminder, your buddy Ion literally said that covenant locking in Shadowlands was a success and they were happy with how it turned out despite massive negative feedback stemming from the first beta where it was announced. This is where the entire meme about "pulling the ripcord" came from because he said it IN SL BETA.

Yes, Blizzard absolutely lies about feedback. Let's look at other examples because this is how I make my point as opposed to your belief that you "don't need to support information that is given as a fact".

The wow community had been complaining about cross faction play for years until Ion finally caved on it literally admitting that the teams "stubbornness and traditionalism" caused it to stay in the game far longer than their data supported keeping it in. We saw the same thing with Azerite Armor, Torghast, Island Expeditions, Warfronts, etc. To put it bluntly, there is so much evidence that Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback until it's far too late than there is that they listen to feedback as it's happening.

But you don't care. You'll run away from this argument like you ran away from the other argument. That's what you do. I'm half convinced that you are Ion himself which would explain so many things.

[Stickiler]

Yes, you did. There is no advantage between a playing saying it or an addon it. If an addon can do something that a player can't, then that would support your position, but as it stands, the addon is doing nothing different than what the players can.

And let's go ahead and remind you that Blizzard allows boss timers! So, they are also fine with the game announcing it as well.

So, your position isn't even supported by Blizzard.

I also noticed you abandoned your argument about the debuffs. Guess you were just full of crap there too.

Once again, the fundamental problem with your position is that there is no clear line between what violates YOUR beliefs and what doesn't. This is exactly why you need to take some time and actually LEARN what you are trying to argue so that you can actually make a strong argument instead of the desperation you are posting now.

The fact that you think there's no difference between a player saying it and an addon saying it is mod-boggling, honestly. Should we give up on players actually playing the game, and just everyone use a bot which plays every game for us? After all, there's no difference between a player making decisions about how the game/fight should go compared to an Addon, right?


The line is clear, obvious, and definitively stated multiple times. If a player is deciding the strategy based on the game state, it's fine. If it's an addon deciding the strategy based on the game state, that's not fine.

[SoleQueen]

Just a reminder, your buddy Ion literally said that covenant locking in Shadowlands was a success and they were happy with how it turned out despite massive negative feedback stemming from the first beta where it was announced. This is where the entire meme about "pulling the ripcord" came from because he said it IN SL BETA.

Yes, Blizzard absolutely lies about feedback. Let's look at other examples because this is how I make my point as opposed to your belief that you "don't need to support information that is given as a fact".

The wow community had been complaining about cross faction play for years until Ion finally caved on it literally admitting that the teams "stubbornness and traditionalism" caused it to stay in the game far longer than their data supported keeping it in. We saw the same thing with Azerite Armor, Torghast, Island Expeditions, Warfronts, etc. To put it bluntly, there is so much evidence that Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback until it's far too late than there is that they listen to feedback as it's happening.

But you don't care. You'll run away from this argument like you ran away from the other argument. That's what you do. I'm half convinced that you are Ion himself which would explain so many things.

Using 5–8 year-old design philosophy as the basis of your argument makes it hard to take anything you're saying seriously.

Just to be clear, I'm not 'running' from this discussion — I'm choosing not to waste time. Your takes don't line up with current reality, and I’m not interested in debating someone who’s arguing from a fantasy version of the game.

And no, 'players not enjoying something' ≠ 'feature failure.' The fact you think those two things are equivalent says enough.

I'm stepping out of this conversation for my own sanity. I'm blocking you so we don't keep going in circles. Please stop tagging me.

[Duese]

Using 5–8 year-old design philosophy as the basis of your argument makes it hard to take anything you're saying seriously.

Just to be clear, I'm not 'running' from this discussion — I'm choosing not to waste time. Your takes don't line up with current reality, and I’m not interested in debating someone who’s arguing from a fantasy version of the game.

And no, 'players not enjoying something' ≠ 'feature failure.' The fact you think those two things are equivalent says enough.

I'm stepping out of this conversation for my own sanity. I'm blocking you so we don't keep going in circles. Please stop tagging me.

Look, he's running away again. AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

You can lie to yourself all you want, but the only reality here is that my arguments are right there and you are the one who can't be bothered to reply. It's just obvious that you realize that you don't have an argument and so your only recourse is to run away.

Even now, the whole 5-8 year old design philosophy is nothing but a deflection where you don't even address the argument but presume you can just ignore it and it will go away. Well, it's still there even if you don't like it. So, either address it or I'll just keep highlighting how you run away.

And no, 'players not enjoying something' ≠ 'feature failure.' The fact you think those two things are equivalent says enough.

That has got to be the most absolutely ridiculous thing that you've said and you've said some absolutely ridiculous things.

Let's go ahead and walk you through this. The entire purpose of a video game is to entertain people. If players aren't being entertained by it, then it's failing. You don't succeed when the entire purpose of your product is to entertain when you aren't actually entertaining.

You really are just a nutjob.

But hey, block me. All you are doing is proving me right.

- - - Updated - - -

The fact that you think there's no difference between a player saying it and an addon saying it is mod-boggling, honestly. Should we give up on players actually playing the game, and just everyone use a bot which plays every game for us? After all, there's no difference between a player making decisions about how the game/fight should go compared to an Addon, right?


The line is clear, obvious, and definitively stated multiple times. If a player is deciding the strategy based on the game state, it's fine. If it's an addon deciding the strategy based on the game state, that's not fine.

Why is it different between a player saying it and an addon saying it? You don't actually explain why it's different at all. You just pretend that insulting me is some kind of argument. Sorry, but you need to do a hell of a lot better than that. I'm really sick and tired of people like you who refuse to actually support your own positions and then berate anyone who doesn't blindly agree with you.

So, either support your position or realize that you don't have a strong argument.

Here, let's walk through this again. You are suggesting that a notification to a player means that the notification is playing the game for them, then it doesn't matter if it's coming from a human or an addon because based on your logic, that notification is playing the game for them. I'll dumb it down for you so you can see the problem with your position. I'm a player in the raid. The addon tells me to move to green circle. Your argument is that the addon is playing the game for me. Conversely, if a human says to move to green circle, based on your logic, this would mean that the raid leader is playing the game for me?

Like I said, you need to actually make a compelling argument for this because presuming to say "herp derp nut uh" isn't an argument.

The line is clear, obvious, and definitively stated multiple times. If a player is deciding the strategy based on the game state, it's fine. If it's an addon deciding the strategy based on the game state, that's not fine.

DBM never decided strategy based on the game state. It literally just presented information for you to make the decision for yourself.

Outside of Fractillus in Manaforge which is unanimously a horrible fight, the weakauras being used never decided strategy based on the game state. The weakauras took a PREDETERMINED STRATEGY and notified the player of that strategy. Again, this is no different than a raid leader saying "Group 1 to star". That's literally what 80% of the weakauras in Manaforge were doing. The exceptions to this were weakauras that did things like highlighted players with major debuffs and then helped track the duration of the debuff or helped to not overlap dispels, both of which are things that are incredibly important to the encounters that the current UI and encounter design is poorly communicating to players.

So, if this is what you are saying is the line, then why are combat addons being blocked when they aren't crossing that line?

I need examples. I need ACTUAL EVIDENCE. I'm sick and tired of people making arguments that can't be backed up in any way.

I think your entire argument is completely unsupported and so far, you've given ZERO examples and ZERO real world support of your position.

[Tidemoo]

You cultists have been saying "console release soon!!!!!!!!!" for over a decade now

it's not happening

lmao

It's coming, there is no scenario in our lifetime that would not have a console release for wow, none.

[Rageonit]

Why is it different between a player saying it and an addon saying it?

There are at least several differences at play.
1) An addon can issue multiple personal orders at the same time: for example in Ovinax fight, each players that has to go to a certain egg is given the order separately; thanks to that, it can issue orders faster and more efficiently than any human ever could.
2) Players make mistakes, addons don't.
3) Addons are faster than humans, solving mechanical problems instantly; whereas a human needs time to see who is being targeted by a certain mechanic and issue orders based on the actual game state, only after analysing the situation (which takes time).

That's of course from the raid lead perspective; you could argue that for the players doing the mechanic, it's no different if they are issued orders by an addon or a human. But you base that on a very simple example that's not really realistic in modern WoW: "move to green" or "group 1 to star". No actual boss fight plays as simple as that. More often than not you have several players being targetted by a mechanic, and an addon - as argued above - can issue commands swiftly and with no room for error.

Now question is: could a human issue orders on Ovinax fast enough that the players don't have to make any decisions themselves...? Because again: with no help of an addon, the lead has to identify marked players and, one by one, start issuing orders who goes where. You have only so many seconds to do it before time runs out and you wipe due to someone not being on the egg on time. So with no addon to help, an interesting situation occurs: players are now motivated to make the decisions themselves, at least to a certain degree. Since I know where John is going and where Jane is going, I can start moving already to eggs that were not assigned yet. Maybe me and some other dudes can position properly even before our names are called out.

You could probably find a multitude of similar examples. You say that there's no difference if the order is given by an addon or lead; but you aren't taking into account that a human can't do it as swiftly as an addon, so in many, many situations positioning your whole raid through voice commands is simply not realistic - at least some decisions have to be taken by actual players; and raid lead can give only rough commands, or react to mistakes to correct them.