What pisses you off greatly in WoW?

[NineSpine]

I think that's a mistake in thinking. It's a variant of a common, fallacious rebuttal: "well if you don't like it, don't play/go away/don't buy/etc." - it's true to some extent, but it misses a crucial component. There is value in change.

The analogy I like to respond with in these cases is ordering a steak and finding it's too rare for your taste; you ask for it to be cooked more, but the waiter goes "sir, if you don't like steak, maybe just order something else, yeah?" - that's obviously unreasonable, but it's kind of what's going on in these arguments a lot of the time.

People aren't complaining about the content itself, they're complaining about certain aspects of the content that they don't like. So saying well they must hate the content because they hate those aspects is fallacious.

And to be sure: sometimes the aspects they're complaining about are, in fact, so central they might as well not be the content. "Yeah I like raiding I just wish there weren't these bosses to kill all the time", whatever. Things like that.

But routing isn't a core element of M+. COUNT is. But routing isn't. As I said earlier, people are already working to eliminate routing, through use of addons like MDT that make it so they don't have to figure out the route, only follow it. And that means that on a mechanical level, if you deleted all the trash outside of that route they just downloaded and didn't think about, it'd be exactly what I'm suggesting: just kill all the trash, the end. That is what people are already creating for themselves, only with extra steps.

Your analogy doesn't work because M+ forces dungeons to fit into a very narrow design pattern, and that's why dungeons are pretty boring. Whether you want to engage with M+ or not, the dungeons are still going to be designed the way they are to accommodate it.

[HanziePanzie]

I think that's a mistake in thinking. It's a variant of a common, fallacious rebuttal: "well if you don't like it, don't play/go away/don't buy/etc." - it's true to some extent, but it misses a crucial component. There is value in change.

The analogy I like to respond with in these cases is ordering a steak and finding it's too rare for your taste; you ask for it to be cooked more, but the waiter goes "sir, if you don't like steak, maybe just order something else, yeah?" - that's obviously unreasonable, but it's kind of what's going on in these arguments a lot of the time.

People aren't complaining about the content itself, they're complaining about certain aspects of the content that they don't like. So saying well they must hate the content because they hate those aspects is fallacious.

And to be sure: sometimes the aspects they're complaining about are, in fact, so central they might as well not be the content. "Yeah I like raiding I just wish there weren't these bosses to kill all the time", whatever. Things like that.

But routing isn't a core element of M+. COUNT is. But routing isn't. As I said earlier, people are already working to eliminate routing, through use of addons like MDT that make it so they don't have to figure out the route, only follow it. And that means that on a mechanical level, if you deleted all the trash outside of that route they just downloaded and didn't think about, it'd be exactly what I'm suggesting: just kill all the trash, the end. That is what people are already creating for themselves, only with extra steps.

It is kinda expected with Midnight, you won't rely on mandatory tryhard tools or terms(if I didn't misunderstand you).

When you remove focus from addons, you also remove the focus of complexity - not only mechanics, but also the culture. They have to deliver on that.

The strongest impression I got from the feedback is, that it feels like Classic with new modern outfit.

[NineSpine]

It is kinda expected with Midnight, you won't rely on mandatory tryhard tools or terms(if I didn't misunderstand you).

When you remove focus from addons, you also remove the focus of complexity - not only mechanics, but also the culture. They have to deliver on that.

The strongest impression I got from the feedback is, that it feels like Classic with new modern outfit.

I don't think it's going to feel like classic as long as the gear is boring, the class identity/utility is still gone, and the pacing is ADHD squared.

[HanziePanzie]

I don't think it's going to feel like classic as long as the gear is boring, the class identity/utility is still gone, and the pacing is ADHD squared.

Classic in the sense that nobody really yelled at you in Ragefire Chasm. Or you really didn't feel obliged to do it either.

It’s going to be very interesting. From all the impressions I’ve gathered, the best‑case scenario is a clean‑sheet, new‑direction game; the worst‑case is Shadowlands 2.0.

[Biomega]

It is kinda expected with Midnight, you won't rely on mandatory tryhard tools or terms(if I didn't misunderstand you).

When you remove focus from addons, you also remove the focus of complexity - not only mechanics, but also the culture. They have to deliver on that.

The strongest impression I got from the feedback is, that it feels like Classic with new modern outfit.

The problem is that routing issues won't just go away if MDT does. Which, I think, isn't even necessarily happening, because it's not an addon that interacts with combat - so it may well not be going anywhere in the first place. I could be wrong on that, of course.

But to be clear: my issue isn't with the addon. The addon to me is just a way to reveal the underlying truth: that people by and large don't actually find figuring out the route all that fun, and are trying their darnedest not to have to do it. Which tells me that if routing were to go away, most people wouldn't miss it and would be happier that it's gone.

I think the whole addonpocalypse thing is blown out of proportion, and while there's for sure going to be an impact and various things will shift, calling it "Classic with new modern outfit" seems grossly mistaken thinking to me. Like, not even in the same universe as actual reality.

[HanziePanzie]

The problem is that routing issues won't just go away if MDT does. Which, I think, isn't even necessarily happening, because it's not an addon that interacts with combat - so it may well not be going anywhere in the first place. I could be wrong on that, of course.

But to be clear: my issue isn't with the addon. The addon to me is just a way to reveal the underlying truth: that people by and large don't actually find figuring out the route all that fun, and are trying their darnedest not to have to do it. Which tells me that if routing were to go away, most people wouldn't miss it and would be happier that it's gone.

I think the whole addonpocalypse thing is blown out of proportion, and while there's for sure going to be an impact and various things will shift, calling it "Classic with new modern outfit" seems grossly mistaken thinking to me. Like, not even in the same universe as actual reality.

1. You can't eliminate the best route. There will always be one - just like the best build(source: PoE).
2. Also - what is the point if you don't have a route. You won't have a baseline or a strategy(essential fingerprint of the games idenity). What is the point of any game, if you don't have a strategy at all.

We are going back to your own analogy with the steak.

[WowIsDead64]

I think that's a mistake in thinking. It's a variant of a common, fallacious rebuttal: "well if you don't like it, don't play/go away/don't buy/etc." - it's true to some extent, but it misses a crucial component. There is value in change.

The analogy I like to respond with in these cases is ordering a steak and finding it's too rare for your taste; you ask for it to be cooked more, but the waiter goes "sir, if you don't like steak, maybe just order something else, yeah?" - that's obviously unreasonable, but it's kind of what's going on in these arguments a lot of the time.

People aren't complaining about the content itself, they're complaining about certain aspects of the content that they don't like. So saying well they must hate the content because they hate those aspects is fallacious.

And to be sure: sometimes the aspects they're complaining about are, in fact, so central they might as well not be the content. "Yeah I like raiding I just wish there weren't these bosses to kill all the time", whatever. Things like that.

But routing isn't a core element of M+. COUNT is. But routing isn't. As I said earlier, people are already working to eliminate routing, through use of addons like MDT that make it so they don't have to figure out the route, only follow it. And that means that on a mechanical level, if you deleted all the trash outside of that route they just downloaded and didn't think about, it'd be exactly what I'm suggesting: just kill all the trash, the end. That is what people are already creating for themselves, only with extra steps.

Bingo #3! Constant problem with "You don't like X - then you don't like whole game = quit it". Nope. It doesn't work this way. Players quit, when game is completely unplayable/unenjoyable. They usually don't quit, if they still have things to do. It's not about "M+ is only thing, that worth paying: can't play it => quit". Big mistake, modern Blizzard do - they don't provide backup content. For example leveling was my backup content for years. Pointless leveling, that takes only 2 hours? All old content is dead due to broken pruning/scaling? Sorry, no content for me.

And yeah. Change value. Also commonly known mistake. To assume, that if 2 choices are almost identical, then it's easy to switch between them. It doesn't work this way. Change of choice also has some value. And therefore pros of that change should outnumber cons by some extent. This is why Wow is still alive and doesn't have competitors. Because years of effort invested into Wow >> freshness effect in some new game.

[Jastall]

As I mentioned across posts, obviously this would be kept in mind for future dungeon design and there wouldn't be dungeons that have 300% count trash that you now somehow need to all kill. There'd just be 1/3rd of the trash so it's still the same 100% as it is now even if you kill everything. No change in that.

As for dungeons feeling stale - people already have fixed routes that they adhere to and expect others to adhere to. They seem to WANT fixed routes. Hence why the person I replied to had such a bad time in their group as people started deviating. That's a very common observance: people don't actually like figuring out routes. They just want to go in and blast mobs not plan where to go and what to pull. Most people don't actually seem to enjoy that.


See above for possible solutions, but TL;DR: either design dungeons that don't have to feel like they're overflowing, or just add NPCs you can't actually fight but that still make the place look packed and alive. Trivial to do.


It's really the gameplay that should win out here. Yeah I get the flavor and vibe stuff and it's not like that doesn't matter - but having a straightforward, low-friction, just-zone-in-and-go experience should matter more. Routes just cause so many problems for so little actual payoff.

The playerbase has to be protected from itself sometimes. The fact that some people would prefer if every dungeon was a completely linear corridor where you kill 3 trash packs, then a boss, 3 times like clockwork doesn't mean it has to be this way. I don't believe game design should be frictionless at all; some unnecessary friction can be removed or avoided, or just made optional, but friction can also come from more interesting design. I happen to like dungeons like Halls of Atonement, or Dawnbreaker, or Priory, that have room to breathe and some options as to how you tackle them. It's fine for them to exist alongside the more typical press W dungeons.

I do think the minutiae of routing is more trouble than it's worth, but wouldn't want to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. The NPC option might work, or just remove the extra ones. Designing overly linear dungeons across the board just to accommodate the lack of having to route in M+ is going too far.

[HanziePanzie]

Bingo #3! Constant problem with "You don't like X - then you don't like whole game = quit it". Nope. It doesn't work this way. Players quit, when game is completely unplayable/unenjoyable. They usually don't quit, if they still have things to do. It's not about "M+ is only thing, that worth paying: can't play it => quit". Big mistake, modern Blizzard do - they don't provide backup content. For example leveling was my backup content for years. Pointless leveling, that takes only 2 hours? All old content is dead due to broken pruning/scaling? Sorry, no content for me.

And yeah. Change value. Also commonly known mistake. To assume, that if 2 choices are almost identical, then it's easy to switch between them. It doesn't work this way. Change of choice also has some value. And therefore pros of that change should outnumber cons by some extent. This is why Wow is still alive and doesn't have competitors. Because years of effort invested into Wow >> freshness effect in some new game.

Somewhere in between, there’s a third option.

Most people can’t quit. It’s not a choice. What you’re spending your time on is 100% illogical.

It’s like if I were Lego: I’d give you one brick out of a thousand, and you’d play with that single brick forever.

The biggest strength of WoW is not the game. It's the business behind it(shocking I know).

[Biomega]

1. You can't eliminate the best route. There will always be one - just like the best build(source: PoE).

...that's why my suggestion is for there to only be one route: you have to kill everything. The end. Precisely for the reason you say. Adjust trash amounts so it's roughly the same, but have everything on the list. No options what to kill - it all has to die to hit count.

2. Also - what is the point if you don't have a route. You won't have a baseline or a strategy(essential fingerprint of the games idenity). What is the point of any game, if you don't have a strategy at all.

But that's already happening. People don't like figuring out a route - that's why they made MDT and get to just download a route and follow it. They're not interested in figuring out the route. They just want to blast and know where to go, not think about where to go.

[HanziePanzie]

...that's why my suggestion is for there to only be one route: you have to kill everything. The end. Precisely for the reason you say. Adjust trash amounts so it's roughly the same, but have everything on the list. No options what to kill - it all has to die to hit count.


But that's already happening. People don't like figuring out a route - that's why they made MDT and get to just download a route and follow it. They're not interested in figuring out the route. They just want to blast and know where to go, not think about where to go.

The problem with having no route is that you just stack ideal classes. With different routes, developers can create a much more dynamic environment.

I don’t know how recently you logged on, but you don’t figure out anything anymore. The tank does the pulling - the tank knows the route. You don't say thing, because:

1. The risk for reports.
2. The risk of getting false ban on you.
3. You just vote to concede if it goes bad.

It's more like playing with bots really.

Ten years ago, I actually had an argument about whether we should turn left or right.

[Biomega]

The playerbase has to be protected from itself sometimes. The fact that some people would prefer if every dungeon was a completely linear corridor where you kill 3 trash packs, then a boss, 3 times like clockwork doesn't mean it has to be this way.

But the thing is, it's already like that. People use MDT etc. to make sure it is. That's what they seem to prefer. And again: I'm not saying to change how much needs to be killed. That can all stay roughly the same. Only make it so it's clear what to kill, i.e. everything. And there'll still be skill expression in the order of what you're killing, how many packs you pull at once, etc. Just no more confusion about what to pull and what not to pull, how to hit exact count without pulling over, no more missing count and having to go back... all a bunch of points of friction and annoyance with very little payoff.

And frankly, a lot of Classic dungeons are like this, too. Basically always the same. No complex routing, just a skip here or there. People don't seem to mind.

I don't believe game design should be frictionless at all; some unnecessary friction can be removed or avoided

That's my position also; I just think that routing is unnecessary friction is all. I'm not advocating for no friction - only less. M+ has too much friction. It has too much convoluted, manual, annoying bullshit.

I do think the minutiae of routing is more trouble than it's worth, but wouldn't want to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. The NPC option might work, or just remove the extra ones. Designing overly linear dungeons across the board just to accommodate the lack of having to route in M+ is going too far.

The thing is, dungeons are already linear - people just don't realize it because it looks like they're not. But the majority of them people have figured out a general route and are sticking to it, in fact sticking to it so much they'll start group drama over it, as the first post I replied to in all of this. That's been going on for years. It's also one of THE main things keeping new tanks from entering M+. People are doing their outmost to make the dungeons linear, using addons and social pressure.

And there can still be choices involved; what order to clear certain parts in, what packs to pull together, etc. MDI-style gameplay would still be going on, figuring out which things to best group up where, what to drag into the boss, etc. That would all still exist even with a kill-all-trash setup. There just wouldn't be confusion about what to pull and what not to pull, because it all needs to get pulled eventually.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with having no route is that you just stack ideal classes. With different routes, developers can create a much more dynamic environment.

I don't believe this for a second. 99% of players don't give two shits about adjusting routes to comp. That's a level of optimization that's irrelevant to the vast majority of players. The tiny minority who do optimize around that, well too bad. The rest of the people are more important, sorry.

I don’t know how recently you logged on, but you don’t figure out anything anymore. The tank does the pulling - the tank knows the route. You don't say thing, because:

1. The risk for reports.
2. The risk of getting false ban on you.
3. You just vote to concede if it goes bad.

It's more like playing with bots really.

That's my point. People are already creating this situation through peer pressure. They don't WANT to figure shit out. They WANT a fixed route. They want to just enter and go.

And tanks especially - nothing scares new tanks away from M+ more than having to know routing. It'd be a huge load off their shoulders not to have to worry about this.

[HanziePanzie]

But the thing is, it's already like that. People use MDT etc. to make sure it is. That's what they seem to prefer. And again: I'm not saying to change how much needs to be killed. That can all stay roughly the same. Only make it so it's clear what to kill, i.e. everything. And there'll still be skill expression in the order of what you're killing, how many packs you pull at once, etc. Just no more confusion about what to pull and what not to pull, how to hit exact count without pulling over, no more missing count and having to go back... all a bunch of points of friction and annoyance with very little payoff.

And frankly, a lot of Classic dungeons are like this, too. Basically always the same. No complex routing, just a skip here or there. People don't seem to mind.


That's my position also; I just think that routing is unnecessary friction is all. I'm not advocating for no friction - only less. M+ has too much friction. It has too much convoluted, manual, annoying bullshit.


The thing is, dungeons are already linear - people just don't realize it because it looks like they're not. But the majority of them people have figured out a general route and are sticking to it, in fact sticking to it so much they'll start group drama over it, as the first post I replied to in all of this. That's been going on for years. It's also one of THE main things keeping new tanks from entering M+. People are doing their outmost to make the dungeons linear, using addons and social pressure.

And there can still be choices involved; what order to clear certain parts in, what packs to pull together, etc. MDI-style gameplay would still be going on, figuring out which things to best group up where, what to drag into the boss, etc. That would all still exist even with a kill-all-trash setup. There just wouldn't be confusion about what to pull and what not to pull, because it all needs to get pulled eventually.

- - - Updated - - -


I don't believe this for a second. 99% of players don't give two shits about adjusting routes to comp. That's a level of optimization that's irrelevant to the vast majority of players. The tiny minority who do optimize around that, well too bad. The rest of the people are more important, sorry.


That's my point. People are already creating this situation through peer pressure. They don't WANT to figure shit out. They WANT a fixed route. They want to just enter and go.

And tanks especially - nothing scares new tanks away from M+ more than having to know routing. It'd be a huge load off their shoulders not to have to worry about this.

I’ve realized that you haven’t been playing Mythics recently. I understand what you are trying to say, but the message lacks experience.

The most communication you see now is people greeting each other(sometimes) - after one wipe, players vote to concede and call it a day.

The fear of getting banned is very real, so everyone avoids communication at all costs. Because of that, the premise that “it’s hard for people to agree on the route” just isn’t valid anymore.

One of the aspect of playing a tank - is to call on the pulls and decide the route. There is no fun of being a target dummy otherwise.

The solution would be to encourge people to talk - not put them in corridor with anxiety.

This is the wierd hill my friend.

[Biomega]

Because of that, the premise that “it’s hard for people to agree on the route” just isn’t valid anymore.

But do you know why?

Because they have fixed routes figured out and agreed upon. They don't want to figure out anything.

That's an indication that there is a desire for fixed routing. And sure, it's great if there's no disagreement and nothing happens - but that's not always the case. I literally started this by responding to someone's experience of a toxic disagreement. So don't go "oh this just doesn't happen" when the impetus for this entire discussion was someone's report that it does happen.

[HanziePanzie]

But do you know why?

Because they have fixed routes figured out and agreed upon. They don't want to figure out anything.

That's an indication that there is a desire for fixed routing. And sure, it's great if there's no disagreement and nothing happens - but that's not always the case. I literally started this by responding to someone's experience of a toxic disagreement. So don't go "oh this just doesn't happen" when the impetus for this entire discussion was someone's report that it does happen.

And how is putting people in a linear dungeon not routing?

It’s still routing - just linear. I don't know how this suggestion solves anything.

We’re once again going back to your own steak analogy. Maybe it’s time to order something else.

[shise]

The fact that they stopped making World of Warcraft in favour of this modern game. It genuinely is not World of Warcraft anymore.
When you try to give it a try, time after time, you get an initial rush: "so shiny, all these armors, all these mounts... all this... all that.... too much = too irrelevant.

WoW was peak during Vanilla, BC and Wrath. After that, some chagnes were Ok... past Legion, and specially past half BfA, they literally shut the project and started a whole new game, simply carrying the name.

That´d be about it for me.

So well, sticking to TBC anniversary, at least that is closer to actual World of Warcraft.

[Biomega]

And how is putting people in a linear dungeon not routing?

It’s still routing - just linear. I don't know how this suggestion solves anything.

How would having only one single route option reduce the quibbles about what route to take?

If you don't understand this, then perhaps you're not qualified to be part of this discussion, don't you think?

[HanziePanzie]

How would having only one single route option reduce the quibbles about what route to take?

If you don't understand this, then perhaps you're not qualified to be part of this discussion, don't you think?

I understand the questions perfectly well.

But while we’re at it, why don’t we remove the talent system too, since everything ends up with the same build anyway? Why can’t people get every piece of loot all the time, so they don’t fight about ninja looting?

It’s so far‑fetched and disconnected. I encourage you to actually play the game - if you’re not interested and are only bringing up hypothetical ideas, I’d like to know that beforehand.

[Biomega]

It’s so far‑fetched and disconnected.

It's literally in direct response to someone relaying their actual experience in the game. And it's an experience that's been reported by people for literal years.

You don't appear to know what's going on here, you just want to raah-raah a bit. Noted. Now move along.

[HanziePanzie]

It's literally in direct response to someone relaying their actual experience in the game. And it's an experience that's been reported by people for literal years.

You don't appear to know what's going on here, you just want to raah-raah a bit. Noted. Now move along.

Sorry, I just tagged along. I’m not sure about your chat history - I saw a few keywords and figured I’d join in.

However, you can’t really have no route(and this was your own suggestion).

The image of that we’ll be on a straight racing track is a bit of a wild card.

A lot of people are also saying they’re getting mass‑reported for no reason. I think Blizzard should encourage more puzzles, even more routes, more variety overall to stop players from becoming isolated silos.

Because to think is to communicate. And you want people not to think.