What pisses you off greatly in WoW?

[Ielenia]

I agree generally with your criticisms of his points, but WoW was a more casual friendly game back in the day. The increased focus on seasons, deprecating content very quickly, and resetting progress regularly are all strongly anti-casual and discourage anyone from playing the game in a way not proscribed by the developers.

I view it differently. Having seasons in this game actually makes it friendlier than before, same with 'resetting progress'. Let's take TBC, for example: wanna do heroic dungeons? Sure! But first you must grind-grind-grind to reach heroic reputation with a specific faction within the zone to be able to buy the keys that unlock heroic mode for the dungeons in that zone. Want to raid Karazhan? Sure! But first you must do a long quest chain involving dungeons to get the key to enter the raid instance.

I also view seasons as good and casual-friendly because it means no matter at which point of the expansion you start playing, it's not harder to reach a certain level regardless if you start playing at the start of the expansion, middle or end.

Saying "Oh, we are done with that now" and throwing everything I worked on away is not casual friendly. That's the opposite of casual friendly.

Nothing really stops you from going back and doing previous seasons' content. It's not like those are removed, neither you are 'railroaded' into the most current content.

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That is not true for two reasons:

1. Good designs can stand the test of time. Chess doesn't need new pieces every year.

Chess is also not live-service game. Chess doesn't have expansions and expansions on top of it.

2. In this particular example, there is nothing stopping Blizzard from adopting a more horizontal class expansion where new options are added rather than overhauling the core kit.

And how would a "horizontal class expansion" work?

[NineSpine]

I view it differently. Having seasons in this game actually makes it friendlier than before, same with 'resetting progress'. Let's take TBC, for example: wanna do heroic dungeons? Sure! But first you must grind-grind-grind to reach heroic reputation with a specific faction within the zone to be able to buy the keys that unlock heroic mode for the dungeons in that zone. Want to raid Karazhan? Sure! But first you must do a long quest chain involving dungeons to get the key to enter the raid instance.

Yes, all of that is more casual friendly than constantly resetting your progress. Incremental progression that you get to keep permanently is what casual friendly looks like.

I also view seasons as good and casual-friendly because it means no matter at which point of the expansion you start playing, it's not harder to reach a certain level regardless if you start playing at the start of the expansion, middle or end.

It is not casual friendly to tell someone that everything they do is going to get wiped out, so they better play NOW NOW NOW before the reset. It's not fun to log in, play a little, make a little bit of progress, and then next time you log in you are functionally reset back to the starting point.

Nothing really stops you from going back and doing previous seasons' content. It's not like those are removed, neither you are 'railroaded' into the most current content.

The old content stops rewarding relevant progress in most cases.

Chess is also not live-service game. Chess doesn't have expansions and expansions on top of it.

There are plenty of live service games that also do not go through massive overhauls that upset the core gameplay. The most popular online game in the Western world is Counterstrike.

And how would a "horizontal class expansion" work?

This is just a quick spitball, not a comprehensive idea, but imagine a world where instead of talent trees we have something like the glyph system. You can equip 3 prime, 3 major, and 3 minor glyphs. Every expansion you get new glyphs for each type of slot, opening up new options and play styles.

[Nederbelg]

This is just a quick spitball, not a comprehensive idea, but imagine a world where instead of talent trees we have something like the glyph system. You can equip 3 prime, 3 major, and 3 minor glyphs. Every expansion you get new glyphs for each type of slot, opening up new options and play styles.

So you want to change the classes every expansion, but not the way it is done now but with glyphs?
It doesn't matter if it is called talents or glyphs, the changes are the same.

The whole idea about games like WoW is that players want to feel more powerful in each new patch. If everything kept the same difficulty there is no need for better gear. If there is no need for better gear there is no reason to do content once a toon is max level.

[NineSpine]

So you want to change the classes every expansion, but not the way it is done now but with glyphs?
It doesn't matter if it is called talents or glyphs, the changes are the same.

Changes and additions are not the same thing.

The whole idea about games like WoW is that players want to feel more powerful in each new patch. If everything kept the same difficulty there is no need for better gear. If there is no need for better gear there is no reason to do content once a toon is max level.

I don't know what "like WoW' means the way you are using it, but there are plenty of live service games, including MMOs, that do not engage in endless power inflation.

[Nederbelg]

Changes and additions are not the same thing.



I don't know what "like WoW' means the way you are using it, but there are plenty of live service games, including MMOs, that do not engage in endless power inflation.

If you have 9 glyphslots in three categories and they bring out new glyphs, do you need to changes old ones for new ones or not?

And are those games as popular and fun to play as WoW? What ways do those games reward players and keep them playing?

[Ielenia]

Yes, all of that is more casual friendly than constantly resetting your progress. Incremental progression that you get to keep permanently is what casual friendly looks like.

Why? I gave you reasons why I believe what I believe. Keep what permanently? Your gear doesn't simply stop working the moment a new season hits. Season 1 tier gear still works as normal in season 2 and 3, for example. It's not really different from vanilla Wow with each raid giving incrementally more powerful gear rewards.

It is not casual friendly to tell someone that everything they do is going to get wiped out, so they better play NOW NOW NOW before the reset. It's not fun to log in, play a little, make a little bit of progress, and then next time you log in you are functionally reset back to the starting point.

It's not wiped out. It's still there for you to continue it if you wish.

The old content stops rewarding relevant progress in most cases.

So did previous content before, didn't it?

There are plenty of live service games that also do not go through massive overhauls that upset the core gameplay. The most popular online game in the Western world is Counterstrike.

You are aware that Counterstrike is nowhere near the same game as WoW, right? Not even the same genre. It's not even a MMO.

This is just a quick spitball, not a comprehensive idea, but imagine a world where instead of talent trees we have something like the glyph system. You can equip 3 prime, 3 major, and 3 minor glyphs. Every expansion you get new glyphs for each type of slot, opening up new options and play styles.

And how is that different from adding more talents and abilities to the class? In both instances you're drastically changing a class and likely heavily altering the meta.

[NineSpine]

Why? I gave you reasons why I believe what I believe. Keep what permanently? Your gear doesn't simply stop working the moment a new season hits. Season 1 tier gear still works as normal in season 2 and 3, for example. It's not really different from vanilla Wow with each raid giving incrementally more powerful gear rewards.

In vanilla, new patches don't come out and reset the baseline gear drops from everything.

It's not wiped out. It's still there for you to continue it if you wish.

No, it's reset. Your M+ progress is reset. The old raid is functionally deprecated. The gear baseline is changed.

So did previous content before, didn't it?

That depends how far back you go. This wasn't a change that happened one day. The game slowly shifted to this model over its first few expansions.

You are aware that Counterstrike is nowhere near the same game as WoW, right? Not even the same genre. It's not even a MMO.

You were the one that appealed to wow being live service and therefore requiring this. Now suddenly wow being live service is irrelevant? Ok, why doesn't OSRS need to do this? Let me guess: That's different too and now the goalpost will move again.

And how is that different from adding more talents and abilities to the class? In both instances you're drastically changing a class and likely heavily altering the meta.

I simply do not know what to tell you if you cannot tell the difference between "Hey, we changed your core gameplay, like it or not" and "We added some new options for you to play with if you want to".

[Ielenia]

In vanilla, new patches don't come out and reset the baseline gear drops from everything.

As far I know, neither does that happen today. Quests, world quests, world events, dungeons and raids still drop the same item level at max level regardless if it's season one, two or three.

No, it's reset. Your M+ progress is reset. The old raid is functionally deprecated. The gear baseline is changed.

I'll agree that M+ progress is reset, but the rest? Old raids are not "functionally deprecated". They still drop the exact same gear and all trinkets and tier from it still work. And "gear baseline" works basically the same as every previous expansions: each new raid increases the item level max.

That depends how far back you go. This wasn't a change that happened one day. The game slowly shifted to this model over its first few expansions.

I'm talking season after season.

You were the one that appealed to wow being live service and therefore requiring this. Now suddenly wow being live service is irrelevant?

I also added on that very same line the fact about Chess not having "expansions after expansions". But I guess this is on me for engaging in an already invalid comparison (chess vs WoW).

I simply do not know what to tell you if you cannot tell the difference between "Hey, we changed your core gameplay, like it or not" and "We added some new options for you to play with if you want to".

I'm not sure you should be throwing those "if you cannot tell the difference" stones while you sit there comparing Counterstrike and chess of all games to World of Warcraft.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Seasonal progress also has the virtue of winnowing down the list of potential activities that can be overwhelming, assuming it is done right. If I log into GW2 or ESO a couple years after playing it, I always feel hopelessly lost because it's unclear where to start. There's too much to do, and also none of it really feels rewarding. Meanwhile if you skip a patch or even an expansion in wow, the game escalators you right back to where you need to be. Some people hate that, but I vastly prefer it. Very easy to get back where the crowd is.

But I'm not really looking for emergent experiences in an MMO, I can get that in my tabletop groups. Wow is for smashing monsters and getting loot

[NineSpine]

As far I know, neither does that happen today. Quests, world quests, world events, dungeons and raids still drop the same item level at max level regardless if it's season one, two or three.

That is not accurate. Every season, the baseline goes up. The raid loot is the only thing that stays static

I'll agree that M+ progress is reset, but the rest? Old raids are not "functionally deprecated". They still drop the exact same gear and all trinkets and tier from it still work. And "gear baseline" works basically the same as every previous expansions: each new raid increases the item level max.

Except now you can get similar or better gear from World Quests, Delves, and M+ in the new season, content which did not drop that ilvl last season. This is because the baseline has increased.

I'm talking season after season.

I also added on that very same line the fact about Chess not having "expansions after expansions". But I guess this is on me for engaging in an already invalid comparison (chess vs WoW).

I'm not sure you should be throwing those "if you cannot tell the difference" stones while you sit there comparing Counterstrike and chess of all games to World of Warcraft.

So we established that games don't need constant change, then live service games don't need constant change, and then MMOs don't need constant change. Is there a new goalpost or are we dropping this line of reasoning?

It's very weird to me that YOU bring up live service games and then piss and moan that I compare WoW to other live service games. Why did you bring it up then, if its such a dumb comparison that nobody should make?

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Seasonal progress also has the virtue of winnowing down the list of potential activities that can be overwhelming, assuming it is done right. If I log into GW2 or ESO a couple years after playing it, I always feel hopelessly lost because it's unclear where to start. There's too much to do, and also none of it really feels rewarding. Meanwhile if you skip a patch or even an expansion in wow, the game escalators you right back to where you need to be. Some people hate that, but I vastly prefer it. Very easy to get back where the crowd is.

But I'm not really looking for emergent experiences in an MMO, I can get that in my tabletop groups. Wow is for smashing monsters and getting loot

GW2 and ESO have other issues that I think cause those problems.

As I have said, WoW is a well designed seasonal loot grinder, but it's a badly designed MMO.

[Ielenia]

That is not accurate. Every season, the baseline goes up. The raid loot is the only thing that stays static

Except now you can get similar or better gear from World Quests, Delves, and M+ in the new season, content which did not drop that ilvl last season. This is because the baseline has increased.

Okay, but I'm still waiting for a reason as to why that is a bad thing. Baseline gear drops can only help casual players, from the way I see it.

So we established that games don't need constant change,

No. No, we have not established that at all. Your invalid comparisons (CS and chess vs WoW) do not establish that. Comparing chess to WoW is like comparing a single image to an animation, and claim you "established" that characters in the animation don't move or change at all.

It's very weird to me that YOU bring up live service games and then piss and moan that I compare WoW to other live service games. Why did you bring it up then, if its such a dumb comparison that nobody should make?

Again, that's on me for engaging with your invalid comparison (chess vs WoW). And I'll point out again you missed (or ignored) the whole point of the argument when you cut away the part in that paragraph that mentioned how WoW has many expansions in their name. You basically took that line out of context in that way.

[NineSpine]

Okay, but I'm still waiting for a reason as to why that is a bad thing. Baseline gear drops can only help casual players, from the way I see it.

Because FOMO isn't casual friendly. A looming reset punishes you for making slower progress. If I don't play for a month, I want to come back to where I left off, not come back to my progress being reset.

No. No, we have not established that at all. Your invalid comparisons (CS and chess vs WoW) do not establish that. Comparing chess to WoW is like comparing a single image to an animation, and claim you "established" that characters in the animation don't move or change at all.

So then I talked about Counterstrike and you moved the goalpost. And then I talked about OSRS and you moved the goalpost.

Again, that's on me for engaging with your invalid comparison (chess vs WoW). And I'll point out again you missed (or ignored) the whole point of the argument when you cut away the part in that paragraph that mentioned how WoW has many expansions in their name. You basically took that line out of context in that way.

Just to keep track: We established that games don't need constant change. Then we established that live service games don't need constant change. Then we established that MMOs don't need constant change. The new goalpost is "MMOs that have expansion packs need constant change"? Do you see how ridiculous this goalpost shifting is becoming? Are we going to keep doing this until the goalpost is "Fantasy MMOs based on RTS series made by a company headquartered in Irvine California are different"?

How about you just engage with my actual point instead of playing this dumb game that wastes our time? This is my point: Change for the sake of change is bad design. It is not necessary to constantly make changes just to keep things "fresh". That doesn't make the game better.

[Huntermyth]

recent disconnects while you are flying and rooted by an enemy in pvp, plus the complete ui reset when you open your toy menu, battle pets menu or transmog menu.

how can they not fix it since the early days of lemix is telling a rather pathetic story.

[Ielenia]

Because FOMO isn't casual friendly. A looming reset punishes you for making slower progress. If I don't play for a month, I want to come back to where I left off, not come back to my progress being reset.

How is it FOMO? How is simply increasing the baseline item level FOMO? Do you really think not being able to get a piece of gear at item level 99 anymore now that baseline have gone up and the same piece of gear is now 103 baseline on World Quests somehow FOMO? "Fear Of Missing Out" on what? Lower level versions of the exact same gear?

So then I talked about Counterstrike and you moved the goalpost.

I never moved the goalposts. When we're talking about WoW as a game we're talking about MMORPGs, not first-person-shooters or physical tabletop games.

What you did was akin to us having a conversation about why cars need AC and you say "cars shouldn't need AC because bikes are fine without them".

And then I talked about OSRS and you moved the goalpost.

I simply ignored your OSRS comparison for not to address it later because I was still addressing (and still am) your faulty comparisons that you're still acting as if they're valid.

We established that games don't need constant change.

No. Again, we have done no such thing. You made the assertion and brought invalid comparisons as evidence.

[Nederbelg]

Just to keep track: We established that games don't need constant change. Then we established that live service games don't need constant change. Then we established that MMOs don't need constant change.

No, we did not establish that and you are trying to make arguments in favor of that. Games need to change or they get stale. And games need to make money to keep being developed. When they would implement your vision of how WoW should be, it would lose players as fast as classic did after it's release.

And when you can't make that argument you start arguing about how the others are arguing.

[NineSpine]

No, we did not establish that and you are trying to make arguments in favor of that. Games need to change or they get stale. And games need to make money to keep being developed. When they would implement your vision of how WoW should be, it would lose players as fast as classic did after it's release.

And when you can't make that argument you start arguing about how the others are arguing.

The question is not "Do they need more content" or "Do they need to change things for a particular reason". The question is "Do they need to change things just for the sake of changing things", and I do not believe that it is a good idea to take something which is working and changing it just to change it. If there is a goal in mind, then change in pursuit of that goal can be a great idea.

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How is it FOMO? How is simply increasing the baseline item level FOMO? Do you really think not being able to get a piece of gear at item level 99 anymore now that baseline have gone up and the same piece of gear is now 103 baseline on World Quests somehow FOMO? "Fear Of Missing Out" on what? Lower level versions of the exact same gear?

Telling players that you are going to reset their progress encourages FOMO, yes. The reason it is bad for casual play is not JUST that it encourages FOMO, but that's part of it.

I never moved the goalposts. When we're talking about WoW as a game we're talking about MMORPGs, not first-person-shooters or physical tabletop games.

You said games need change. Then it was live service games. Then it was MMORPGs. Then it was MMORPGs that get expansion packs. That's the definition of moving the goalpost.

What you did was akin to us having a conversation about why cars need AC and you say "cars shouldn't need AC because bikes are fine without them".

I simply ignored your OSRS comparison for not to address it later because I was still addressing (and still am) your faulty comparisons that you're still acting as if they're valid.

No. Again, we have done no such thing. You made the assertion and brought invalid comparisons as evidence.

If all games need constant change, why don't chess or counterstrike or OSRS? Is there a particular reason you want to loop through this same argument again? Do you think it's going to go differently this time? Why do you want to do this instead of addressing the point?

[GamerDude40]

Blizzard screwed up hunters again. As BM gimme my multishot back, that new ability is trash. Give back explosive shot and call of the wild. Popping CotW and BW should make BA proc over and over till BW ends. Wtf good is BW if BA gonna get stuck on a CD. F the random proc of BA have it always proc while BW is up. All these abilities gave a serious edge to BM spec. Oh man if only Call of the Forest could be carried over from Legion that shit was awesome.

The other BS is losing so many of our favorite addons. F your default layout blizz, no one ever liked it. Hence why the addons you dopes. Pfft, and 20+ years you still cant squash the bugs in your code...pathetic. Well lets see how the new race fairs i guess.

[Ielenia]

Telling players that you are going to reset their progress encourages FOMO, yes.

No, increasing the baseline item level drops for world quests and world events is not FOMO. I've granted you that resetting M+ progress could be classified as 'FOMO' but increasing base item level drops is not. Your misuse of the term 'FOMO' is starting to turn it into a meaningless buzzword.

You said games need change. Then it was live service games. Then it was MMORPGs. Then it was MMORPGs that get expansion packs. That's the definition of moving the goalpost.

It's not my fault that when we're talking about WoW and I say 'games' you immediately think of chess is anywhere near the same type of game of WoW. It's obvious for anyone willing to engage honestly that when someone says the word "games" in comparison to WoW we're talking about other MMORPGs. Your apparent incapacity to understand that (or desire to engage honestly) is not my problem.

If all games need constant change, why don't chess or counterstrike or OSRS?

And now you double- and triple-down on those invalid comparisons. If you aren't willing to engage honestly, then it's back to being the sole entry in my ignore list with you.

[NineSpine]

No, increasing the baseline item level drops for world quests and world events is not FOMO. I've granted you that resetting M+ progress could be classified as 'FOMO' but increasing base item level drops is not. Your misuse of the term 'FOMO' is starting to turn it into a meaningless buzzword.

M+ resets. That's FOMO.
Delves reset. That's FOMO.
The raid is deprecated and replaced by the new one. That's FOMO.

If you want to hang your hat on the idea that world quest progress doesn't reset or deprecate in exactly the same way, I don't think that that really changes the substance of the issue. I personally think having your power progress functionally reset is similar, but we can set that aside.

It's not my fault that when we're talking about WoW and I say 'games' you immediately think of chess is anywhere near the same type of game of WoW. It's obvious for anyone willing to engage honestly that when someone says the word "games" in comparison to WoW we're talking about other MMORPGs. Your apparent incapacity to understand that (or desire to engage honestly) is not my problem.

And now you double- and triple-down on those invalid comparisons. If you aren't willing to engage honestly, then it's back to being the sole entry in my ignore list with you.

As someone with game design experience, I do think of games very broadly, and I think drawing these lines of which design principles apply to which games is important and not something we should just hand wave away. There are design lessons to be learned from chess and from counterstrike and from OSRS and from warcraft II and from half life and from fallout 3 and from cuphead. Nothing is universally incomparable. When we say something can't be compared on a particular metric, we should have a good reason to say why, not just "it's different".

I don't bring up chess because chess is just like wow. I bring it up to demonstrate the point that change for the sake of change is not some universally accepted truth of game design. It's a fair point that wow is a live service game so player expectations are that there will be additions. However, there are live service games that also do not do change for the sake of change, and there are even MMOs that don't. All I was pointing out is that your attempts to hand wave away my argument by just appealing to the type of game wow is is not honest or good faith. It is dismissive and does not interface with the points I am making at all.

The point I am making that is that change for the sake of change is bad design. I don't care if it's a board game, a sport, a TTRPG, a shooter, an MMORPG, or a flight sim. Change is a tool for attaining goals, and making change absent a goal is unwise. That is not a dishonest point, and it would be great if you would engage with it instead of obsessing over the chess comparison.

[Ielenia]

M+ resets. That's FOMO.
Delves reset. That's FOMO.
The raid is deprecated and replaced by the new one. That's FOMO.

If you want to hang your hat on the idea that world quest progress doesn't reset or deprecate in exactly the same way, I don't think that that really changes the substance of the issue. I personally think having your power progress functionally reset is similar, but we can set that aside.

This will be my last response to you. Your arguments don't really make sense. M+ resets and Delve resets are only FOMO if you're talking about the cosmetic rewards that come from reaching certain ranks with a set time limit (i.e. within the season). But you're not talking about that. You're talking about gear here, and in that regard, there's simply no reset. Your gear still works, it's still valid. And the increase of baseline item level drops is not FOMO. Even season 1 raids awarding lower item level gear than season 3 world quests is not FOMO because the raids are still there for you to get the gear and the bosses' rewards.

At least, you have repeatedly failed to explain why you think an increase in baseline item level drops is FOMO. And no, asserting it is does not a valid reasoning make. For someone who claims to have "game design experience", not being able to explain that really says something.