What pisses you off greatly in WoW?

[Ielenia]

Telling players that you are going to reset their progress encourages FOMO, yes.

No, increasing the baseline item level drops for world quests and world events is not FOMO. I've granted you that resetting M+ progress could be classified as 'FOMO' but increasing base item level drops is not. Your misuse of the term 'FOMO' is starting to turn it into a meaningless buzzword.

You said games need change. Then it was live service games. Then it was MMORPGs. Then it was MMORPGs that get expansion packs. That's the definition of moving the goalpost.

It's not my fault that when we're talking about WoW and I say 'games' you immediately think of chess is anywhere near the same type of game of WoW. It's obvious for anyone willing to engage honestly that when someone says the word "games" in comparison to WoW we're talking about other MMORPGs. Your apparent incapacity to understand that (or desire to engage honestly) is not my problem.

If all games need constant change, why don't chess or counterstrike or OSRS?

And now you double- and triple-down on those invalid comparisons. If you aren't willing to engage honestly, then it's back to being the sole entry in my ignore list with you.

[NineSpine]

No, increasing the baseline item level drops for world quests and world events is not FOMO. I've granted you that resetting M+ progress could be classified as 'FOMO' but increasing base item level drops is not. Your misuse of the term 'FOMO' is starting to turn it into a meaningless buzzword.

M+ resets. That's FOMO.
Delves reset. That's FOMO.
The raid is deprecated and replaced by the new one. That's FOMO.

If you want to hang your hat on the idea that world quest progress doesn't reset or deprecate in exactly the same way, I don't think that that really changes the substance of the issue. I personally think having your power progress functionally reset is similar, but we can set that aside.

It's not my fault that when we're talking about WoW and I say 'games' you immediately think of chess is anywhere near the same type of game of WoW. It's obvious for anyone willing to engage honestly that when someone says the word "games" in comparison to WoW we're talking about other MMORPGs. Your apparent incapacity to understand that (or desire to engage honestly) is not my problem.

And now you double- and triple-down on those invalid comparisons. If you aren't willing to engage honestly, then it's back to being the sole entry in my ignore list with you.

As someone with game design experience, I do think of games very broadly, and I think drawing these lines of which design principles apply to which games is important and not something we should just hand wave away. There are design lessons to be learned from chess and from counterstrike and from OSRS and from warcraft II and from half life and from fallout 3 and from cuphead. Nothing is universally incomparable. When we say something can't be compared on a particular metric, we should have a good reason to say why, not just "it's different".

I don't bring up chess because chess is just like wow. I bring it up to demonstrate the point that change for the sake of change is not some universally accepted truth of game design. It's a fair point that wow is a live service game so player expectations are that there will be additions. However, there are live service games that also do not do change for the sake of change, and there are even MMOs that don't. All I was pointing out is that your attempts to hand wave away my argument by just appealing to the type of game wow is is not honest or good faith. It is dismissive and does not interface with the points I am making at all.

The point I am making that is that change for the sake of change is bad design. I don't care if it's a board game, a sport, a TTRPG, a shooter, an MMORPG, or a flight sim. Change is a tool for attaining goals, and making change absent a goal is unwise. That is not a dishonest point, and it would be great if you would engage with it instead of obsessing over the chess comparison.

[Ielenia]

M+ resets. That's FOMO.
Delves reset. That's FOMO.
The raid is deprecated and replaced by the new one. That's FOMO.

If you want to hang your hat on the idea that world quest progress doesn't reset or deprecate in exactly the same way, I don't think that that really changes the substance of the issue. I personally think having your power progress functionally reset is similar, but we can set that aside.

This will be my last response to you. Your arguments don't really make sense. M+ resets and Delve resets are only FOMO if you're talking about the cosmetic rewards that come from reaching certain ranks with a set time limit (i.e. within the season). But you're not talking about that. You're talking about gear here, and in that regard, there's simply no reset. Your gear still works, it's still valid. And the increase of baseline item level drops is not FOMO. Even season 1 raids awarding lower item level gear than season 3 world quests is not FOMO because the raids are still there for you to get the gear and the bosses' rewards.

At least, you have repeatedly failed to explain why you think an increase in baseline item level drops is FOMO. And no, asserting it is does not a valid reasoning make. For someone who claims to have "game design experience", not being able to explain that really says something.

[NineSpine]

This will be my last response to you. Your arguments don't really make sense. M+ resets and Delve resets are only FOMO if you're talking about the cosmetic rewards that come from reaching certain ranks with a set time limit (i.e. within the season). But you're not talking about that. You're talking about gear here, and in that regard, there's simply no reset. Your gear still works, it's still valid. And the increase of baseline item level drops is not FOMO. Even season 1 raids awarding lower item level gear than season 3 world quests is not FOMO because the raids are still there for you to get the gear and the bosses' rewards.

At least, you have repeatedly failed to explain why you think an increase in baseline item level drops is FOMO. And no, asserting it is does not a valid reasoning make. For someone who claims to have "game design experience", not being able to explain that really says something.

The way weekly progress factors into the season is plainly FOMO. You have to get those weekly things done to make real progress. On top of that, your progress will be functionally reset at the end of the season. The raising of the gear baseline means Delves and M+ are both going to move up in their scaling, which is exactly the same as scaling you down. If the content goes up 20 ilvls, or you go down 20 ilvls, the outcome is the same. If you go from doing +10 one week to doing +2 the next week, you have had your progress set back.

The fact that it induces FOMO is only part of the reason it is bad for casual players. I made it very clear that my overall point is that it is bad for casual players because it prevents them from progressing at their own pace. They have to make their progress within the timeframe of the season (which generally will push them to weekly play) or Blizzard is going to hit the big red button and functionally scale them down relative to the content.

It is simply dishonest to say "oh the raid is still there" as though it occupies the same place in the game as it does during its current season. You don't really believe that, so why are you saying it?

Stop cosplaying as someone looking for an honest, good faith discussion. You have not addressed any point I have raised honestly.

[Ielenia]

You have not addressed any point I have raised honestly.

"Honestly", they say:
• "Chess hasn't changed, so why should WoW?"
• "Counterstrike hasn't changed, so why should WoW?"

And no: no matter how much you want to twist things, increasing baseline item level drops is not FOMO.

[prwraith]

I still can't believe the bastardization that is outlaw rogue now.

Outlaw was perfect in Legion and BFA

and now it's just a shitty rogue spec built around slice and dice. Fuck slice and dice

[NineSpine]

"Honestly", they say:
• "Chess hasn't changed, so why should WoW?"
• "Counterstrike hasn't changed, so why should WoW?"

What I actually said: "Good designs can stand the test of time. Chess doesn't need new pieces every year."
You summarizing me: "Chess hasn't changed, so why should WoW"

You either can't read, or you are a liar who pretends to value "honesty".

[Biomega]

I still can't believe the bastardization that is outlaw rogue now.

Outlaw was perfect in Legion and BFA

and now it's just a shitty rogue spec built around slice and dice. Fuck slice and dice

I haven't played the more recent iterations so I can't speak to those, but MAN was Outlaw fun to play during BFA. Not the weird SS-only build with traits, but just the regular version... it felt so good. The only thing that kept me going during BFA.

[Illuminance]

I haven't played the more recent iterations so I can't speak to those, but MAN was Outlaw fun to play during BFA

Consider yourself lucky - recent Outlaw was one of the worst designed specs I've ever seen in the game's history, though the honor of worst (momentarily?) goes to whatever the heck Devourer is supposed to be.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I leveled an OL rogue in lemix and was aghast at how horrible it was.

And I do not understand their obsession with roll the bones at all.

[Biomega]

I leveled an OL rogue in lemix and was aghast at how horrible it was.

And I do not understand their obsession with roll the bones at all.

Classic case of a designer coming up with something cool and then dying on that hill to keep it in the game no matter how well it does or does not play in practice. They had a good idea, and by the gods, it'll be in this game.

[WowIsDead64]

I leveled an OL rogue in lemix and was aghast at how horrible it was.

And I do not understand their obsession with roll the bones at all.

I actually liked Legion's version of Outlaw. It was fun. Problem is - it required TellMeWhen addon to track buffs.

[prwraith]

I leveled an OL rogue in lemix and was aghast at how horrible it was.

And I do not understand their obsession with roll the bones at all.

I love roll the bones, I fucking hate slice and dice. If they removed that one finisher and baked the attack speed / energy regen into roll the bones I'd be in fucking heaven again. It was the most fun i've had playing wow EVER during legion/bfa

- - - Updated - - -

I actually liked Legion's version of Outlaw. It was fun. Problem is - it required TellMeWhen addon to track buffs.

To absolute min max yea, but you could also largely play it by feel. You noticed your energy regen pickup, you noticed more combo points per generator, you noticed how the vibe changed playing it and fired additional cooldowns as necessary to feed into it

[Ghostile]

I love roll the bones, I fucking hate slice and dice. If they removed that one finisher and baked the attack speed / energy regen into roll the bones I'd be in fucking heaven again. It was the most fun i've had playing wow EVER during legion/bfa

It's been a while since I've played any rogue, let alone Outlaw, but isn't slice and dice basically baked into all finishers?

[Big Thanks]

It's been a while since I've played any rogue, let alone Outlaw, but isn't slice and dice basically baked into all finishers?

True
You never need to even use the button anymore

I only press it in PvP when im out of combat and combo points start depleting...so migh aswell get the cooldown reduction from a finisher before i lose the combo points.

[Ghostile]

True
You never need to even use the button anymore

I only press it in PvP when im out of combat and combo points start depleting...so migh aswell get the cooldown reduction from a finisher before i lose the combo points.

Yeah I had a faint memory of having to press it just to keep it running when OOC with combo points left.

[WowIsDead64]

To absolute min max yea, but you could also largely play it by feel. You noticed your energy regen pickup, you noticed more combo points per generator, you noticed how the vibe changed playing it and fired additional cooldowns as necessary to feed into it

When tracking things starts requiring too much attention, it starts being tedious. Especially for your eyes. For example attempt to track two things at the same time can cause squint, you know. This was real reason, why players used addons. There were specs, where using addons was exceeding and I realized it at some point. I realized, that if I would have used better organized action bars, I wouldn't have needed extra addons. But buffs are completely different thing.

[Osmeric]

I leveled an OL rogue in lemix and was aghast at how horrible it was.

And I do not understand their obsession with roll the bones at all.

Let's bring back Mace Combat rogues!

[XMD7007]

The company AND the community not willing to entirely eliminate the root cause for queue times.

No half-hearted solution or stopgap measure will ever really work. The company doesn't even consider queue times to be a really major problem for this game. This should be at the very top of their list of things they need to address.

Queue times are an emergent property of having fixed roles at all. With the exception of a few edge cases, this is the sole reason for queue times. Nothing good comes out of this, it only creates problems, in PvE and PvP. I'm probably one of the less than 1% of players who think that roles should be completely removed from this game, everyone should be a DPS. The whole thing could be rebalanced in PvE and PvP and still remain a challenging and interesting game—I would even say more so than it is today with it's very rigid role based concept, just with less balancing issues and no queue times.

[Ghostile]

The company AND the community not willing to entirely eliminate the root cause for queue times.

No half-hearted solution or stopgap measure will ever really work. The company doesn't even consider queue times to be a really major problem for this game. This should be at the very top of their list of things they need to address.

Queue times are an emergent property of having fixed roles at all. With the exception of a few edge cases, this is the sole reason for queue times. Nothing good comes out of this, it only creates problems, in PvE and PvP. I'm probably one of the less than 1% of players who think that roles should be completely removed from this game, everyone should be a DPS. The whole thing could be rebalanced in PvE and PvP and still remain a challenging and interesting game—I would even say more so than it is today with it's very rigid role based concept, just with less balancing issues and no queue times.

I don't think removing 2 of the 3 roles in the game is going to go well.
I know more than a few people who refuse to play dps.