The quest designers are so lazy in this game.

[casecase89]

At the end of the day the true reason they get mundane is that they want to leech monthly fees from people,

hence even if they make a "be an NPC" funny/inventive quest it can only happen once in a full moon.

To actually improve the game they should not force people do mundane tasks to do end game.

PS yes they are obviously forced for end game, because it's required to be in a good guild.

Quests are not the reason they are trying to leech monthly fees lol. what drug are you smoking? Its the end game loop that is meant to take up most of the time. I did loremaster in 6 days of grinding. I had about 5 hours a day to throw at it but i did it. That is most of questing. All of it optional. The ones i didnt have to do are way out of the way and are pointless chains. They make the questing experience per patch like 2 hours long. Its not meant to drive up time. Getting you guys into anything higher than LFD is the goal. Otherwise there would be a chain of 8 quests where you kill 30 mobs each. And there isn't. Closest is BC Nagrand and its not 8 quests and not all of them are 30 kill quests. Those would be the type of quests everywhere if the game was trying to tie up a "monthly subscription" from you. It also doesnt take a good guild to get into raiding.

[epigramx]

what drug are you smoking?

6 days of grinding

5 hours a day

That's the main problem of World of Warcraft. MMORPGs do not have to require 5 hours a day; they have to only be Massively Multiplayer and Online; they have to be Role-Playing Games the end.

The misconception people have that "MMORPGS REQUIRE GRINDING" is them conflating the monetary policies of Blizzard with the definition of MMORPG.

PS other companies copying Blizzard's MMORPG recipe are not proof either, most of those designers are ex-WoW players who want a WoW clone.

[Biomega]

The misconception people have that "MMORPGS REQUIRE GRINDING" is them conflating the monetary policies of Blizzard with the definition of MMORPG.

MMORPGs don't require grinding, nor is that some kind of Blizzard ploy - it's a solution to a very fundamental, core design problem: you can't create content faster than players consume it. And so slowing that rate of consumption down is one of the most efficient ways of keeping people playing. There's many ways of doing that, and grinding is one of them.

It's not required by the definitions of the genre, but there's a reason almost all of these games do it. Perhaps the advent of AI will change this and give some new options for endless content through active generation, but we're years away from that being a practicable, mainstream-worthy technology for high-end MMOs.

If you can't make 100 quests then making 10 quests that take 10 times longer will effectively do the same thing: make players spend time playing. That tends to lead to revenue in SOME way, at SOME point.

A lot of design is similar across games (even genres) not because people really like it, but because it's the easiest solution to similar problems.

[epigramx]

MMORPGs don't require grinding, nor is that some kind of Blizzard ploy - it's a solution to a very fundamental, core design problem: you can't create content faster than players consume it. And so slowing that rate of consumption down is one of the most efficient ways of keeping people playing. There's many ways of doing that, and grinding is one of them.

It's not required by the definitions of the genre, but there's a reason almost all of these games do it. Perhaps the advent of AI will change this and give some new options for endless content through active generation, but we're years away from that being a practicable, mainstream-worthy technology for high-end MMOs.

If you can't make 100 quests then making 10 quests that take 10 times longer will effectively do the same thing: make players spend time playing. That tends to lead to revenue in SOME way, at SOME point.

A lot of design is similar across games (even genres) not because people really like it, but because it's the easiest solution to similar problems.

Yes there is a reason and you got close to the truth but missed it. They want to leech monthly fees; it's not strictly required to do it; but it's required to do it if you want to force competitive players to grind in order to be accepted in guilds that don't allow players without cutting edge power ups.

AI is an overrated meme and it won't fix your MMORPG problem; if you're an expert on a subject AI will never compare to you even if it's the "next best version"; learn to use it as a tool similar to a glorified google search or a glorified content generator and don't be afraid of it.

[Redwyrm]

It's not so much the quest structure that's the problem. Like people have said, there are only so much ways to perform tasks. The problem is the stories and motivation behind the quests. And not every quest can be the epic "Plaguelands Redpath" (if you know you know) quest line. I would like to see them split each zone among different creative teams. So that each team contributes a detailed story that ties into the main backbone story. Like a huge oak that has massive branches connected to it. Instead we seem to have a main trunk with a bunch of leaves loosely connected by spindly twigs.

[Calfredd]

Yes there is a reason and you got close to the truth but missed it.

You got so close to understanding their point then pulled an epigramx and screwed it up.

[mbit2]

That's the main problem of World of Warcraft. MMORPGs do not have to require 5 hours a day; they have to only be Massively Multiplayer and Online; they have to be Role-Playing Games the end.

The misconception people have that "MMORPGS REQUIRE GRINDING" is them conflating the monetary policies of Blizzard with the definition of MMORPG.

PS other companies copying Blizzard's MMORPG recipe are not proof either, most of those designers are ex-WoW players who want a WoW clone.

There are games removing the typical mmo game loop to increasing degree:

Remove gearing but keep builds and horizontal progress through grind: guild wars 2
Remove stats and limit grind to unlocking achievements: puzzle pirates
Remove all typical progression: vrchat, second life

None of them seem to retain customers as well as runescape which is mostly just a numba go up grinder that had already outdated visuals at its release.
In other words making a virtual hamster wheel seems proven to work best for retention.

[Biomega]

Yes there is a reason and you got close to the truth but missed it. They want to leech monthly fees; it's not strictly required to do it

No, making profit as a company is, in fact, "strictly required". If you're not making profit you aren't a company, you're a charity.

Grinding isn't the only way, but it's one of the easiest ways, see above.

if you want to force competitive players to grind in order to be accepted in guilds that don't allow players without cutting edge power ups.

Now we're in a VERY DIFFERENT argument all of a sudden, where the problem isn't grind as an abstract concept, it's a specific grind for a specific purpose. Seems like your problem isn't "grinding is bad", your problem is "I don't want to have to grind to get into the top content". But that's a very different problem, with very different underlying motivators: people have a desire to filter players by motivation, ambition, and ability because that's a good heuristic to get the people you want to play with. If you don't fit the heuristic that's not some kind of deeper systemic flaw - that's the heuristic working, you just happen to be a player these people don't want to play with.

[Ielenia]

Yes there is a reason and you got close to the truth but missed it. They want to leech monthly fees;

No, they're hitting the nail right on the head. You, on the other hand, refuse to accept reality and instead cling to your headcanons.

it's required to do it if you want to force competitive players to grind in order to be accepted in guilds that don't allow players without cutting edge power ups.

What are you even talking about? "Grinding is required so guilds that accept new players only with CE achievements accepts could only accept players with CE achievements"? That makes no sense.

AI is an overrated meme and it won't fix your MMORPG problem;

For someone who claims to be a professional programmer, it sure seems like your entire knowledge about actual AI usage and implementation comes exclusively from internet memes on Twitter and Facebook, doesn't it?

if you're an expert on a subject AI will never compare to you even if it's the "next best version";

Case in point. You missed their point by a country mile.

[Ghostile]

Yes there is a reason and you got close to the truth but missed it. They want to leech monthly fees; it's not strictly required to do it; but it's required to do it if you want to force competitive players to grind in order to be accepted in guilds that don't allow players without cutting edge power ups.

For a company that supposedly wants you to spend as much time as possible to be able to play on CE level, they sure are doing shit job.
You should probably at least read up on this stuff before using it as an example.

[epigramx]

a virtual hamster wheel seems proven to work best for retention.

I bet, but I don't want to make money for Blizzard. I want to have fun.

- - - Updated - - -

"Grinding is required so guilds that accept new players only with CE achievements accepts could only accept players with CE achievements"? That makes no sense.

Another vomit of personal attacks that has no reasoning and only ends up to quoting me and saying a superficial "you wrong".

I guess you are not familiar with even typical competitive guilds (let alone anything in the top 500 or higher).

You will be scorned at if you don't grind "your due" for raiding.


PS it was also a strawman on top, nobody said CE but you.

- - - Updated - - -

If you're not making profit you aren't a company, you're a charity.

I don't care if Blizzard even exists, let alone if it will be profitable.

I'd prefer an open source clone of WoW if it was better done.

[Ielenia]

Another vomit of personal attacks that has no reasoning and only ends up to quoting me and saying a superficial "you wrong".

"Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" is a true statement. You provide none (and no, your personal feelings are not evidence) so your arguments can be dismissed with no evidence.

And it's not "personal attacks" when you use your own made-up credentials to pose as some sort of expert in the subject in an attempt to give some credence to your bullshit and people call you out on it. Case in point in the post you quoted: you recently claimed you are a "professional programmer", yet your claims about AI don't match what any professional programmer would say, and seems more in line with all the anti-AI memes you see posted on social media.

Starting by the fact you're conflating "generative AI" with AI in general.

I guess you are not familiar with even typical competitive guilds (let alone anything in the top 500 or higher).

Says the guy who doesn't play the game and only does PTR "for the story".

Oh, that's right. You participated in a "top CE guild" some time in the distant past, of which you never ever ever EVER have shown any sort of evidence for that aside from "trust me, brah"? Again, another example of you making up credentials to try to give validity to your claims, instead of providing actual evidence.

You will be scorned at if you don't grind "your due" for raiding.

Do you have any sort of evidence for this aside from your "trust me, brah"? As in, actual real evidence? And I'm baffled how the guild not wanting to carry players through raid progression and want players that actually contribute to the fights such a foreign/unacceptable concept to you.

PS it was also a strawman on top, nobody said CE but you.

And yet you wrote this:

it's required to do it if you want to force competitive players to grind in order to be accepted in guilds that don't allow players without cutting edge power ups.

Guess what "CE" mean? And seriously, what makes you think that, even if grinding wasn't a thing, CE guilds (or high-end guilds if you prefer) wouldn't prefer to invite players that put in the effort required to stay on top? Do you honestly think that, if grinding wasn't a thing, CE guilds would happily invite the likes of Donald into their roster?

I don't care if Blizzard even exists, let alone if it will be profitable.

You should, since without Blizzard you'd have to find something else to complain about since WoW wouldn't exist.

I'd prefer an open source clone of WoW if it was better done.

Or you could just.... y know, move on? It's not like WoW is the only MMORPG in the market.

[Biomega]

I don't care if Blizzard even exists, let alone if it will be profitable.

I'd prefer an open source clone of WoW if it was better done.

Cool.

And Blizzard doesn't care about you or your wishes.

Now what.

[epigramx]

And yet you wrote this:

Guess what "CE" mean?

Re-read what I said. It had nothing to do with the achievement. It was about the best powering up of the character (gear/talents/other systems that power it up).

[Just Passing through]

Cool.

And Blizzard doesn't care about you or your wishes.

Now what.

I see it that way...they would care about those wishes, if it was shared by a huge amount of people. A huge amount that is willing to quit and play the MMO that actually offers ...whatever WoW doesn't offer.

True...tons of people have quit WoW...and also true that for example FF14 could gather up some / many (insert your headcanon) up. Also true that despite many people leaving WoW, apparently that didn't make many other MMOs profitable...as many also shut down already or hang by a thread.

[Biomega]

I see it that way...they would care about those wishes, if it was shared by a huge amount of people. A huge amount that is willing to quit and play the MMO that actually offers ...whatever WoW doesn't offer.

True...tons of people have quit WoW...and also true that for example FF14 could gather up some / many (insert your headcanon) up. Also true that despite many people leaving WoW, apparently that didn't make many other MMOs profitable...as many also shut down already or hang by a thread.

Well that's not what I said, obviously. They don't care about that poster or their wishes; doesn't mean they don't care about anyone's wishes, of course.

That's really my point: that while there is a certain trend-setting power in aggregate preferences, individual ones are really just fuck all. Least of all those who are framed on the basis of disregarding economic dimensions - that's just self-delusion, really.

Like, by all means, apportion your business according to your preferences, but if your preferences include "I don't care if the company goes under, I want things to be this way!" then that's just operating beyond the realm of reality.

Companies aren't out friends. We're not a team. This isn't a ship we need to steer together, or whatever else. It's a business transaction: we give money, they give a product we enjoy. If we no longer enjoy it, it's incumbent on us to stop giving them money. Telling them why we no longer enjoy it is nice but optional, and the transaction really kind of ends there. It can never rise beyond the transactional, because the moment it tries to, exploitation begins.

[Ielenia]

Re-read what I said. It had nothing to do with the achievement. It was about the best powering up of the character (gear/talents/other systems that power it up).

Cool. So, basic stuff you can basically do at your own pace. Because no one is forcing anyone to be part of those "top 1%" guilds. If you're there, it means you want to be there, therefore it also means you want to do the the grind. Which means, again, you're doing it at your own pace.

I also see you avoided addressing the entire rest of my post, especially the parts where I address your absurd claims of "ad hominem" and usage of fake credentials to try to boost credibility of your verifiably wrong claims, such as being a "professional programmer" or "played in a 'top 1%' guild".

[Just Passing through]

Well that's not what I said, obviously. They don't care about that poster or their wishes; doesn't mean they don't care about anyone's wishes, of course.

That's really my point: that while there is a certain trend-setting power in aggregate preferences, individual ones are really just fuck all. Least of all those who are framed on the basis of disregarding economic dimensions - that's just self-delusion, really.

Like, by all means, apportion your business according to your preferences, but if your preferences include "I don't care if the company goes under, I want things to be this way!" then that's just operating beyond the realm of reality.

Companies aren't out friends. We're not a team. This isn't a ship we need to steer together, or whatever else. It's a business transaction: we give money, they give a product we enjoy. If we no longer enjoy it, it's incumbent on us to stop giving them money. Telling them why we no longer enjoy it is nice but optional, and the transaction really kind of ends there. It can never rise beyond the transactional, because the moment it tries to, exploitation begins.

Agreed...and I didn't want to put words in your mouth.

[Biomega]

Agreed...and I didn't want to put words in your mouth.

No worries, I was just clarifying things a bit more. No biggie