The phasing of K'aresh is completely dysfunctional and unecessary.

[Aucald]

You've just made me laugh a very sad laugh.

Hobo-clown antics aside, are those not under the heading of random events?

Look man, I understand why you'd defend Blizzard. Contrary to what you might believe, I don't live under the impression that people over there are sipping drinks slacking. No, they're royally fucked at the moment, probably doing plenty of extra hours to deliver Midnight on time (which is, by the way, the reason why I think they ran out of time for K'aresh). But pretending that lacking content is fine is not the smartest way of doing it. It's ok to call bad things bad, we're not prosecuting anyone here.

The fact that you think my saying K'aresh was okay is "defending Blizzard," should illustrate the degree of bias you're putting on display here. I'd call it bad if I agreed it was bad, which I don't; I think it's middle of the road, a soft 6 out of 10 maybe. Your inability to accept that your judgment isn't the objective end-all and be-all of the matter is kind of the point here (it's also irrelevant to the topic of the thread, I might add). You don't like K'aresh, and that's fine, you do you. I thought it was okay and enjoyed it for a time, and that's okay, too. It's fine to have different opinions about it. You don't need to invent conspiracy theories to justify your likes or dislikes, you can just have your opinion and move on - which is what I'm going to do now.

[Rageonit]

Hobo-clown antics aside, are those not under the heading of random events?

Are you asking to tick it off the list and proclaim victory? I guess it does fall into the category. Side question: did you find them as exciting as the Untethered Space? Give me your honest opinion on the quality of those events.

You don't need to invent conspiracy theories to justify your likes or dislikes, you can just have your opinion and move on - which is what I'm going to do now.

The fact that after so many post exchanges you still can't accept it's not about my likes or dislikes, but things simply lacking, is telling. Since when is "no dragonriding races" (and similar) an opinion? But hey! People who enjoy things that didn't make it into the patch are such a minority that we can simply ignore them - you got what you wanted, hence all is fine.

[Al Gorefiend]

I wouldnt say K'aresh is as bad as the Maw.

If you compare it to final expansion sandbox zones (Timeless Isle, Tanaan Jungle, Argus, ...um..Mechagon? I didnt play BfA, Zereth Mortis, ED) it is definitely the most boring.

I think worst of all though was that this was it. This was the K'aresh the Ethereal fan communities waited almost 2 decades to see. This was it, we are never going back. 3 floating desert islands and a reused city. That is all K'aresh in Warcraft will ever have as representation.

Its like the last 2 expansions has been turning everyone's highest praised expansion suggestions and turning them into patch zones. ED, Undermine, K'aresh all feeling within the same 2 years to me feels wild, I remember reading emerald dream fan theory expansion concepts for hours as a teenager, and as an adult we finally get it and its just ugh.

[WowIsDead64]

Again. K'aresh is lazy design to avoid things like special elite zone with anti-flying mobs in ZM. May be some day Blizzard will realize, that what we need - is special outdoor hard mode, that would never be touched by ordinal players. Thing, we've been asking since that MOP/WOD no-flying disaster. Something like no-flying servers. You want no-flying - you play on separate server with other players, who have same preference. And then we'd see, if it would be popular or just another WarMode wasteland.

[Just Passing through]

... could you name one that stands out? Could you name a quest that stands out? Compare it to Undermine with great D.R.I.V.E system, rares with different spawn requirements, silly - but at least different and memorable - quests like the golf one or the jetpack races... Everything there played into the theme.

Yeah...I can name Staarbs who stands out, because he drops a mount and I can name the eco dome quests as memorable, because they sucked

Agreed that Undermine, silly as it was (and I was expecting to not like it) is better. But really...so what? This game has had something like 40 major patches...some will work better, others not.

You could ask the question of what will I remember "x" for fondly - and I will be hard pressed on so many ptach zones. Like I earlier said, TI for the Celestial Tournament, but I hated that part with the elites where you needed the legendary cloak to cross to the final area for a world boss. That is already very specific, because somebody who doesn't do pet battles, will have no memory of that. Yet...apparently that zone is much loved.

Don't get me wrong, I pretty much played all the zones, but Korthia was imho one of the worst zones as war Argus. I swear if I would make a thread about how Argus was "fail", people would flame me to the ground - and this I isist that "failed" is mostly personal - well...to the point where people would quit in droves over a system or whatever, then that is a general fail.

Remembering K'aresh fondly for the viusual btw is enough for me. Obviously you can up your requirements. Apparently a very beloved zones is Grizzly Hills - yet nobody loves it from the quests, it seems. It is often the Music that gets mentioned.

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Look man, I understand why you'd defend Blizzard. ....

Oh man..all the posts later and you still do it....

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Regardless, anyone calling someone a "white knight for Blizzard" just gets added to my ignore lists. Imagine being on a WoW fan site and actually hating Blizzard. You can't take those people seriously, so I don't even bother reading their written bullshit.

I am taking a hint here and will see myself out. Things are pointless, when we reach a stage where somebody cannot just go: "Well, sure...that is your opinion but I disagree" and we leave it at that.

[Rageonit]

I am taking a hint here and will see myself out. Things are pointless, when we reach a stage where somebody cannot just go: "Well, sure...that is your opinion but I disagree" and we leave it at that.

But you know that it goes both ways?

Also, like I've said earlier in my exchange with Aucald: opinion is one thing, but downplaying my arguments just because you don't care about certain things is a whole different story. It's not an opinion that K'aresh is lacking on many fronts that I've mentioned, and in return I hear: "Well there's no battle pet content there, but I don't care about it" (so apparently it's not a valid argument anymore); "Well there is no timed event but zones aren't required to have one"; "Well there are no races, but it's mostly flat surface [and we can't expect Blizzard to be creative and think of some environmental hazards to navigate]", etc. etc.

So my question is: at what point any criticizm is valid? When it touches something you personally like or dislike and you happen to agree? My impression was that trying to be objective is putting your own preferences aside and discussing things for their merits, which I'm trying to do. After all, I also don't care about pet battles, but there are people who do, so why shouldn't I criticize the lack of it on K'aresh - amongst many other things?

[Aucald]

Also, like I've said earlier in my exchange with Aucald: opinion is one thing, but downplaying my arguments just because you don't care about certain things is a whole different story. It's not an opinion that K'aresh is lacking on many fronts that I've mentioned, and in return I hear: "Well there's no battle pet content there, but I don't care about it" (so apparently it's not a valid argument anymore); "Well there is no timed event but zones aren't required to have one"; "Well there are no races, but it's mostly flat surface [and we can't expect Blizzard to be creative and think of some environmental hazards to navigate]", etc. etc.

Downplaying your arguments? Didn't you begin our exchange by jumping on my explanation of how Phase Diving works by calling me a "Blizzard Defender" and accusing me of being a shill? You set the tone for that set of exchanges.

So my question is: at what point any criticizm is valid? When it touches something you personally like or dislike and you happen to agree? My impression was that trying to be objective is putting your own preferences aside and discussing things for their merits, which I'm trying to do. After all, I also don't care about pet battles, but there are people who do, so why shouldn't I criticize the lack of it on K'aresh - amongst many other things?

At no point did anyone say you couldn't criticize K'aresh, you simply made the tactical error of crouching your criticism as mostly objective statements of fact and then attempting to buttress it with an untrue conspiracy theory about how the developers supposedly "ran out of time." I acknowledged most of your subjective criticisms as entirely valid, I simply didn't share your viewpoint of them making K'aresh dysfunctional or otherwise the objective worse content patch WoW ever had.

[Lolites]

Are you a member of Blizzard PR team? Because you're a painting a pretty picture here that doesn't exist in reality.

no he is just explaining you words you used without understanding them aparently

I don't know if "disfunctional" is the right word, but "failed" seems like a nice fit.

"I personaly dont like it" fits nicely, i personaly would go with underwhelming, but disfunctional or failed are, incorrect

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So my question is: at what point any criticizm is valid?

when its factual and accurate, otherwise its not even criticism but whining

[Rageonit]

At no point did anyone say you couldn't criticize K'aresh, you simply made the tactical error of crouching your criticism as mostly objective statements of fact and then attempting to buttress it with an untrue conspiracy theory about how the developers supposedly "ran out of time."

It is an objective statement that there is no timed event in the zone.
Is is an objective statement that there is no pet battle content in the zone.
Is is an objective statement that there are no dragonriding races in the zone.
Is is an objective statement that we got only 1 delve, which is a reused dungeon.
Is is an objective statement that K'aresh is in a big part made of reused assets.

Compared to other mid-expansion zones introduced since at least DF, and probably SL, K'aresh is lacking in the amount of content. That's an objective statement. All of those zones had the things I'm listing above, plus other additional content.

The only thing subjective in this conversation is your assesments of those facts and the way you downplay my arguments, claiming that those things either don't interest you; aren't necessary; or "couldn't make it to the patch" due to different made-up reasons. They could, Blizzard simply didn't care to be creative; or ran out of time. Pick the one you like better.

[epigramx]

I did. You just ignored it. The first paragraph in my response to you had 67 words. Of those, only 12 were used to describe you. Meaning you completely ignored the other 55 words (or, in other words, 82% of the whole paragraph) that actually gives the reasons why the Maw is worse than K'aresh.

You have trouble comprehending your own thoughts. The entire message was repeating what I said in a sarcastic manner, and then a superficial "it's better".

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I'm not saying that Mechagon and Najatar were amazing, but we got both and once and they definitely felt more finished than a lot of the patch zones we get now.

Najatar had a hilariously chaotic world PvP (when people were half-ganking the "safe" hub zones). I'm not saying it was done on purpose but it gave it a flavor most other zones of the game always lack.

The entire "timeless isle nostalgia" phenomenon is people liking something once and then trying to replicate it but it's not that it's hard to replicate it technically: it's hard to like it repetitively.

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DRIVE system. It felt like there was significant attention to detail

The car is why it didn't have attention to detail. It was too fast and clunky for that tiny zone.

Attention to detail would mean to design a zone that fits the car (very big and fit for it).

[Just Passing through]

Its like the last 2 expansions has been turning everyone's highest praised expansion suggestions and turning them into patch zones. ED, Undermine, K'aresh all feeling within the same 2 years to me feels wild, I remember reading emerald dream fan theory expansion concepts for hours as a teenager, and as an adult we finally get it and its just ugh.

Not a lore geek myself, but I read about the expectations people had - so yeah...from what it could have been, it really was a letdown. (even if it was spread out over time, with also a corrupted version and a raid, right?)

I'm not saying that Mechagon and Najatar were amazing, but we got both and once and they definitely felt more finished than a lot of the patch zones we get now.*

They were a bit on the "ugly" side...but I got all the achievements there...meta achievents, too...and especially for the crab mount, it felt really worth it at the end. Maybe it is me and not having the nerve anymore to invest so much time, but I am definitely not doing all the achives on K'aresh (yeah...I know...it sounds like I was "defending" the zone in my post...but I was more arguing against the "completely dysfunctional and unecessary" bit.

Could they have done more? Sure. I am actually still waiting for a patch, where our contribution progresses a zone...even if it just phased for how we as a player progress. Should be possible with the rares etc still being there.

[Aucald]

It is an objective statement that there is no timed event in the zone.
Is is an objective statement that there is no pet battle content in the zone.
Is is an objective statement that there are no dragonriding races in the zone.
Is is an objective statement that we got only 1 delve, which is a reused dungeon.
Is is an objective statement that K'aresh is in a big part made of reused assets.

It's an objective statement that none of these things objectively matter overmuch, or are replaced by existing content in such a fashion as the above statements have no discernible meaning in terms of overall quality or relevance.

Compared to other mid-expansion zones introduced since at least DF, and probably SL, K'aresh is lacking in the amount of content. That's an objective statement. All of those zones had the things I'm listing above, plus other additional content.

Well, let's do a quick comparison, shall we? Let's take the much lauded Undermine and compare systems and features:

D.R.I.V.E. system for conveyance around the zone.
Untethered Space's portal dias system to allow for quick movement across K'aresh's subzones.

Dungeon: Operation Floodgate for Undermine, Eco-Dome: Aldani for K'aresh.
Liberation of Undermine raid, Manaforge Omega for K'aresh

Undermine has the cartel quest based weekly vs. Ecological Succession for K'aresh.

Both zones are chock full of events, collectables, rare and rare-elite spawns, and mounts.

Undermine has 2 Delves vs. Ka'resh's single Delve, but 11.2 also features added Delve mechanics in the form of challenge gateways and nemesis spawns in Delves.

So no, I don't think your oft-repeated but unevidenced "there's no content" refrain really holds a lot of water. The only things you've said so far that are really missing from K'aresh are Dragonriding races and Battle Pet spawns, which is objectively true, but I doubt it's much of a cause of concern for most people.

The only thing subjective in this conversation is your assesments of those facts and the way you downplay my arguments, claiming that those things either don't interest you; aren't necessary; or "couldn't make it to the patch" due to different made-up reasons. They could, Blizzard simply didn't care to be creative; or ran out of time. Pick the one you like better.

I don't need to downplay your arguments; the lack of substance to them is evidence enough. A lack of Battle Pets and Dragonriding races doesn't really interest me overmuch, to be honest. I also don't find them objective metrics to declare the patch or the zone an objective failure, either. It's an odd little hill to die on, but if that's your goal, then I won't stop you from doing so.

And, to reiterate for the cheap seats, your multiple broadsides here have all been a product of apparent disproportionate outrage at me judging K'aresh as "okay" and a soft "6 out of 10."

[Rageonit]

I don't need to downplay your arguments

Yet you do it again and again. If the lack of substance to my arguments is so self-evident, why do you even engage in the conversation? Because again, you're trying very hard to disprove them.

A lack of Battle Pets and Dragonriding races doesn't really interest me overmuch, to be honest. I also don't find them objective metrics to declare the patch or the zone an objective failure, either.

I think we've established long ago that things that don't interest you don't qualify as objective metrics of anything. Only things that you subjectively enjoy do. Which is a very apt summary of this converstation, I think.

[Aucald]

Yet you do it again and again. If the lack of substance to my arguments is so self-evident, why do you even engage in the conversation? Because again, you're trying very hard to disprove them.

Well, you did just concede the brief point-by-point comparison of the two patches, so if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I'm not really sure what I'd call it. My handful of posts also doesn't really qualify as "trying very hard," either. I've had many longer back-and-forths where my interlocutor didn't just give up with a pithy retort.

I think we've established long ago that things that don't interest you don't qualify as objective metrics of anything. Only things that you subjectively enjoy do. Which is a very apt summary of this converstation, I think.

The thread is about an objective statement, that being the phasing of K'aresh being both dysfunctional and unnecessary, which I've objectively proven isn't the case. Everything else here, from our little aside about patch quality, is a completely subjective assessment of the quality of content, since the quantity argument has also been objectively disproven, as have your conspiracies about the developers. Might I also remind you that this was *your* argument, as you originally responded with an angry reply to a post that had nothing at all to do with 11.2's total amount of content or the quality of that content. This thread was Phase Diving as a game mechanic, not 11.2's entire roster of content.

[Ielenia]

You have trouble comprehending your own thoughts. The entire message was repeating what I said in a sarcastic manner, and then a superficial "it's better".

And you're projecting. This was my post in full:

See, this is more evidence of why people don't take you seriously. The Maw? "Robust gameworld"? It was incredibly annoying because you couldn't mount on the Maw for the longest time during the first season unless you got a specific mount from Torghast which would still take a long time for the average player, and your time in the Maw was limited because of the Eye, too.

Everything about K'aresh is objectively better than the Maw. I'd take a dozen K'areshes over one Maw anytime.


No, it doesn't. This is just another one of your failed comparisons and sham of a thread.

Notice how the only thing you wrote that I repeated was two words: "robust gameworld". I pointed out how the Maw was much more annoying than K'aresh due to all its limitations.

Not to mention the entire zone is just the same-y desolate area, with some places just being slightly darker than others. Meanwhile, K'aresh at least has Taza'vesh, the oasis domes and some manaforges in one of the big islands to break up the monotony of the landscape.

The car is why it didn't have attention to detail. It was too fast and clunky for that tiny zone.

Sounds like someone doesn't know how to drive. I could drift and zoom around Undermine no problem even with the fastest speed or fastest acceleration.

Attention to detail would mean to design a zone that fits the car (very big and fit for it).

That is not what "attention to detail" is. The actual meaning of the term is in the word 'detail': it's about focusing on every aspect of a task, including the minor and even inconsequential parts of it that others would overlook.

[Rageonit]

Well, you did just concede the brief point-by-point comparison of the two patches, so if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I'm not really sure what I'd call it.

I did it because I don't believe that your intention is a honest conversation. Your argument that K'aresh has random events in the form of mob attacks on Ecodomes (in the context of the quality of content this patch introduced) told me everything I needed to know. To be blunt, I think any further discussion is a waste of my time. Not sure if yours too; maybe you find enjoynment in this pointless tit for tat we're having right now.

[Aucald]

I did it because I don't believe that your intention is a honest conversation. Your argument that K'aresh has random events in the form of mob attacks on Ecodomes (in the context of the quality of content this patch introduced) told me everything I needed to know. To be blunt, I think any further discussion is a waste of my time. Not sure if yours too; maybe you find enjoynment in this pointless tit for tat we're having right now.

Well, that's one way to phrase it - another, more honest way, would be to admit you didn't really have a counterargument that didn't sound like more subjective "I didn't like it, so it doesn't count." Kind of like your pithy retort to the point about the Eco-Dome Assaults was more in the vein of not having a valid rebuttal, so you just deflected into inanity instead. I do agree with one thing, though, this discussion has been and continues to be a waste of both of our time - if you can't be intellectually honest with someone, just don't reply in the future, you'll save both your and the other person's time in the end. So we'll agree to disagree and be on our respective ways, then.

[Rageonit]

Well, that's one way to phrase it - another, more honest way, would be to admit you didn't really have a counterargument that didn't sound like more subjective "I didn't like it, so it doesn't count."

I won't disagree with your, out of sheer kindness, because you clearly need to score a win today to have a good sleep and I'm not mean enough to take it away.

[Aucald]

Could they have done more? Sure. I am actually still waiting for a patch, where our contribution progresses a zone...even if it just phased for how we as a player progress. Should be possible with the rares etc still being there.

While I find it doubtful we'll revisit K'aresh in a meaningful fashion, the closing of the Ghosts of K'aresh storyline is one of hope for K'aresh where previously there was none, in the form of the restoration of K'aresh's remaining Worldsoul to its remains after it was recovered from Dimensius in the post-raid questline within Eco-Dome Aldani. That does leave open the possibility of a restored K'aresh, or at least part of it, a possible outcome we'll have had a hand in effecting for the world. I agree, too, that it would've been really cool if the Ecological Succession event/hub led to phased changes to K'aresh as a whole, increasing the density of visible flora and fauna as we worked to restore the world to some semblance of sustained equilibrium.

If you wanted to venture into true criticism of 11.2, that'd be an avenue you could explore. There are a lot of good ideas working for K'aresh as a zone, but a lot of them either don't get explored to their full potential, or, like Phase Diving itself, are quickly made superfluous by outgearing or outpacing the content. For me, that's what keeps 11.2 as a more middle-of-the-road offering as opposed to a more top-tier offering in terms of content patches.

[Just Passing through]

If you wanted to venture into true criticism of 11.2, that'd be an avenue you could explore. There are a lot of good ideas working for K'aresh as a zone, but a lot of them either don't get explored to their full potential, or, like Phase Diving itself, are quickly made superfluous by outgearing or outpacing the content. For me, that's what keeps 11.2 as a more middle-of-the-road offering as opposed to a more top-tier offering in terms of content patches.

Definitely a middle of the road content patch, hell..I would even give it a "weaker" content patch. But a "discussion" we are always having - be it with the underwhelming Trial of the Crusader or that final tagged on raid in WotLK. Not to excuse K'areash - but again far from what OP tries to insinuate with the thread title.

Did Siren Isle blow me away? Korthia? Argus? I am actually hard pressed to find zones content patch zones that I loved so much, I couldn't wait to go there.

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I won't disagree with your, out of sheer kindness, because you clearly need to score a win today to have a good sleep and I'm not mean enough to take it away.

Well...I won't talk for the person you quoted - but for me these discussions are not about scoring a win, but presenting my POV and trying to understand the opposite view. And even when I argue with you, doesn't mean you don't have valid points. They might just matter more to you than me and that is fine.

It is fine to disagree - at the end of the day for me it is about: "Do I enjoy the content enough to justify me paying for it" Sure...it stings a tiny bit, if somebody calls me a sheep or White Knight or Blizzard apologist for it (which to be clear, I don't think you did) . But at the end of the day, life is to short to care too much about how random people judge my choices on how I spend my free time, my money and what hobbies I have.