The fight continues for those of us who need it - the new philosophy?

[WowIsDead64]

You're right, it is a completely different thing, but what you just described is also a different thing.

PvP is often competitive and with the social aspect of competitiveness, people share their thoughts towards the opposing team/group/faction in such ways. You're at war with the opposing faction -> there are players who are on the opposing faction who feel the same way towards you.

Permanent factions aren't required for social aspect of competitiveness. Same can be applied to zone vs zone. Difference is - zone choice can be temporary and therefore can't be about "Red vs Blue" holywar.

[Accendor]

In my opinion the direction the story is heading is very unrealistic after Teldrassil. Everything that is happening now would have been perfectly natural BEFORE Teldrassil. Afterwards however we should now be in a never ending cycle of conflict that can not be resolved for generations.

[Al Gorefiend]

In my opinion the direction the story is heading is very unrealistic after Teldrassil. Everything that is happening now would have been perfectly natural BEFORE Teldrassil. Afterwards however we should now be in a never ending cycle of conflict that can not be resolved for generations.

We were sold and are currently being sold on the narrative that wanting revenge and justice are negative character traits. Unless said revenge is enacted upon non-playable NPC races.

[Enrif]

We were sold and are currently being sold on the narrative that wanting revenge and justice are negative character traits. Unless said revenge is enacted upon non-playable NPC races.

for the simple fact that we can't have the players be the ones who lose. If things would have been as they would make sense narrative wise, the horde would have been dismantled, Ogrimmar razed. But since this is an MMO that is mostly about PvE, that would basically remove one player faction.

The whole faction premise as a player constrain doesn't work, unless the game is setup for that, like Planetside2, a game with basically no ongoing story, just constant battle. But WoW is not that. It wants to be a theme park PvE game, in which the players battles their enemies and win in the end.

The only world in which it could work, is if horde and alliance players would have no common ground for their story. I.e. BfA, where Horde only has Zandalar and Alliance only has Kul'tiras, and they never interact with the other side of the story, and don't have common dungeons or raids. Just their separated stories in which their faction is in the right and wins. Basically, making it two games. At that point, what do the factions bring to the table? you have no interaction with the other faction anymore, in a real way. Just telling your winner stories, while not showing you losing.

[Al Gorefiend]

for the simple fact that we can't have the players be the ones who lose. If things would have been as they would make sense narrative wise, the horde would have been dismantled, Ogrimmar razed. But since this is an MMO that is mostly about PvE, that would basically remove one player faction.

The whole faction premise as a player constrain doesn't work, unless the game is setup for that, like Planetside2, a game with basically no ongoing story, just constant battle. But WoW is not that. It wants to be a theme park PvE game, in which the players battles their enemies and win in the end.

The only world in which it could work, is if horde and alliance players would have no common ground for their story. I.e. BfA, where Horde only has Zandalar and Alliance only has Kul'tiras, and they never interact with the other side of the story, and don't have common dungeons or raids. Just their separated stories in which their faction is in the right and wins. Basically, making it two games. At that point, what do the factions bring to the table? you have no interaction with the other faction anymore, in a real way. Just telling your winner stories, while not showing you losing.

The ending of BfA was the correct moment in the game's story for the Alliance to win and the story was right there for the Horde to be integrated into the Alliance to form a single faction and the Horde that chooses to stay with Sylvanas becomes hostile.
The loyalist alternative ending was an unsatisfying payoff regardless.

The factions have been separate in name only since BfA, every zone, city and resource is shared. The 2 faction system, the ability to not talk to opposite faction unless you are grouped or have an item buff is already awkward and due any day for removal. Warband and mail system dont care. The factions exist only for some nostalgic fist bumping and serve no gameplay function.

[Enrif]

agreed. its time to "pull the ripcord" on the factions

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The tone is set from the top. And the tone of High King Anduin and Thrall is that we are all nice to each other and in world of peacecraft now. Any Horde vs Alliance stuff is going to look like the unsactioned actions of a few, rather than capturing the total faction war feel that made this game great.

- - - Updated - - -

Sometimes I wonder how the game turned out to be like this.

Mike Morhaime foolishly threw wide the gates of Blizzard hiring, which then over the years led to the company being infiltrated and increasingly made up of people who should not be making Warcraft games.

- - - Updated - - -

We were sold and are currently being sold on the narrative that wanting revenge and justice are negative character traits.

The messaging is insane. The Horde has historically wiped out civilizations and just incinerated another. Taking them down is not "muh revenge". They are evil alien invaders and an active threat to all civilizations in this world. Pandaria could be their next victim (and have been). Etc. They must be stopped. And they are also wicked evildoers who must be brought to account.

[Limayria]

We were sold and are currently being sold on the narrative that wanting revenge and justice are negative character traits. Unless said revenge is enacted upon non-playable NPC races.

That was literally the point of Warcraft 3 too, about how to make a better world we can't indulge in old hatreds even if it feels cathartic


Breaking the cycle is something everyone has to do even when it's hard.


Like I get that isn't everyone's cup of tea but it's been a consistent theme, you see it in wc3, you see it in wrath, you see it in legion, you see it now

The ending of BfA was the correct moment in the game's story for the Alliance to win and the story was right there for the Horde to be integrated into the Alliance to form a single faction and the Horde that chooses to stay with Sylvanas becomes hostile.
The loyalist alternative ending was an unsatisfying payoff regardless.

The factions have been separate in name only since BfA, every zone, city and resource is shared. The 2 faction system, the ability to not talk to opposite faction unless you are grouped or have an item buff is already awkward and due any day for removal. Warband and mail system dont care. The factions exist only for some nostalgic fist bumping and serve no gameplay function.

I feel like legion was a better point, have the factions need the whole expac to recover and by the time that's done, we've already been through argus with the order halls and saw how much we needed to work together

+ By removing the champions (players) from factions it allows faction conflict to be meaningful and have consequences

But either way the best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago. The second best time is now!

Especially because we've seen them start doing even more interesting things with renown in recent expacs like the "choose a side" aspects and such, and it'd be neat to have some of those factions stay relevant as we progressed through expacs even in small ways, like for example the new blood knight/magister/farstrider/row sub faction in the silvermoon rep, having themed items for those reps slowly trickle in over the years when they'd be relevant would be nice

Especially with how we're getting race bases trading post sets, so having those at the trading post available to everyone, and then on the appropriate rep vendors after it rotates out (maybe for a while idk) helping build racial identity, fighting fomo and reusing assets it's literally perfect

[Wyrt]

Blizzard doesn't know how to even write faction wars. Both times it's just been Evil Horde vs. Alliance that's mostly reduced to just humans that ultimately results in a Horde civil war and the Warchief being deposed and nothing else being resolved. Which I guess is great if you like Evil Horde or the Alliance being mostly just humans. I don't enjoy either and Blizzard has given me no proof they're capable of anything else.

[loras]

*snip*

You're welcome to it. ^^