Midnight Season 1 World First Race thread

[Rageonit]

Okay, so we're talking about golf and your counter example is "when was the last time US won a game of tennis?"

Not really beating the cope allegations with that one. It's okay though. I have faith you guys will make a comeback. EU desperately needs to be upgraded from minor region status. I think that'll do big things for WoW eSports!

Considering both are WoW events, a better comparision would M+ and raiding being two different disciplines of a duathlon, but in this context I understand your desire to distance yourself from MDI/TGP as far as possible xD

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Case in point. :-/

Don't be salty, he is right. In the post-race interview Max said that they have a new addon guy, and guess what - he's from Europe too iirc. It is an undeniable fact that never in the history of this game - at least in PvE - a team consisting only of US players won anything; and plenty of teams consisting only of EU players won a fuckton of different tournaments.

That's not to say that Liquid win is somehow worse. They fully dserved it, we're just stating facts here :P

[Veiled Shadow]

Do we know anything about the analysts for liquid / echo? Somewhat curious about this, as I'd have assumed most of the players with the requisite deep knowledge of encounters / a lot of different specs to do this would be competing themselves.

[Biomega]

Do we know anything about the analysts for liquid / echo? Somewhat curious about this, as I'd have assumed most of the players with the requisite deep knowledge of encounters / a lot of different specs to do this would be competing themselves.

They are competing.

Just not as players.

I'm sure the teams have their names somewhere on their websites or social media or whatever, if you want specifics.

[Relapses]

Do we know anything about the analysts for liquid / echo? Somewhat curious about this, as I'd have assumed most of the players with the requisite deep knowledge of encounters / a lot of different specs to do this would be competing themselves.

IIRC, one of Liquid's main analysts is Bubbadub, a former League of Legends support, turned coach, turned RWF analyst. Dude has one helluva stache.

[xskarma]

Enough with the trolling, especially the US vs EU nonsense.

[Unforgivenn]

They are competing.

Just not as players.

I'm sure the teams have their names somewhere on their websites or social media or whatever, if you want specifics.

I didnt watched liquid full stream after the kill, bu i saw they giving credits to everyone, just didnt paid attention

[Roxinius]

Damn method still hasn't made it to p4 yet? at this rate HH might actually beat them

[Stickiler]

For example, if the tournament realm versions of the bosses were the super-hard RWF level bosses and the live game immediately began with the nerfed versions they eventually end up with, that would eliminate most of the problems you mentioned

The problem with that solution is that the nerfed versions are directly derived from how raid teams are struggling on boss fights. You can watch in real time the guild progress, normal mythic guilds will slowly progress through the raid, and then they'll hit a wall, and you'll get this bunching up of guilds on a certain fight, and then a small nerf will come in to that specific fight, hitting the specific mechanics raid teams are failing at, and that will open the gates a little bit, with guilds continuing to slowly progress after that, and this continues until the hall of fame is filled, or Blizzard thinks the raid is at a point where most mythic guilds will be able to handle it.

Without this realtime, widespread analytics of the things guilds actually struggle with on these fights, those nerfed versions wouldn't be as good as they currently are.

[Biomega]

The problem with that solution is that the nerfed versions are directly derived from how raid teams are struggling on boss fights.

I don't think that's true; or even if it were, that it would be a problem. The main problem they have is hitting a tuning target for the RWF - hitting tuning targets for everyone else is fairly straightforward. The reason they nerf those bosses many times over isn't that they didn't get it right, but rather to create a difficulty gradient over time. It's their alternative to the old method of having some kind of progressive instance-wide buff/nerf as we did in old expansions.

Their chief problem is that they have trouble predicting RWF performance, because it's far beyond their ability to test in realistic scenarios (because obviously their testers just aren't as good as the RWF players). That's why they do a lot of on-the-fly fiddling etc. during heroic week and mythic opening as more real performance data comes in.

But that's not an issue for "regular" tuning. They can hit that fairly easily, because it's quite broad. They don't need to be super precise, because unlike with the RWF, their target audience has a broad skill range, too.

And whenever they do miss on the tuning, they'll just adjust bosses like they always do, as needed. Nothing changes about that.

[melodramocracy]

As someone who doesn't play any more, but still has some odd draw to watching RWF - now that it's over, I'm sort of like "now what" with some of my free time, like this is always on in the background at least.

So when's the next tier?

[AudibleEscalation]

So when's the next tier?

6-8 months normally.
Ish.

[Rageonit]

The notion that Blizzard tries to tune last Mythic bosses properly before raid release is silly; and people who slam them for incompetence because of "last minute buffs" have no clue how those things work. There is not a single reason to try & tune final bosses before you see the actual performance of RtWF teams; it is literally a waste of time. You just wait for the data (final ilvl gained in a given week, DPS/HPS numbers from other bosses) and only then you turn the knobs to make those final bosses as difficult as you want.

Yet again, Blizzard had tuning numbers spot on for the final boss. L'ura had very few nerfs (the only notable one was the glaive speed to make p1 a bit more forgiving) and the fight was barely, but doable - as it should be for the race.

[Northern Goblin]

Yet again, Blizzard had tuning numbers spot on for the final boss. L'ura had very few nerfs (the only notable one was the glaive speed to make p1 a bit more forgiving) and the fight was barely, but doable - as it should be for the race.

I mean the slew of hotfixes it got the week before were a sign the original version was terribly undertuned.

If all 3 raids came out at once, the race would have been over a week last Friday.

[shanthi]

I mean the slew of hotfixes it got the week before were a sign the original version was terribly undertuned.

If all 3 raids came out at once, the race would have been over a week last Friday.

They likely use the earlier bosses as tuning passes for the RWF final boss, since they can't simulate what RWF players and all their analysts/coders will do, from a normal beta. In the end, all people remember of a RWF (in most cases) is the race on the final boss.

[Biomega]

They likely use the earlier bosses as tuning passes for the RWF final boss, since they can't simulate what RWF players and all their analysts/coders will do, from a normal beta. In the end, all people remember of a RWF (in most cases) is the race on the final boss.

They do, all the time. Sometimes it's documented hotfixes, sometimes bosses just suddenly spawn with X% more HP. It's been happening going back many many years.

[Tech614]

I mean the slew of hotfixes it got the week before were a sign the original version was terribly undertuned.

If all 3 raids came out at once, the race would have been over a week last Friday.

Doubtful. As max has said they always tune final bosses while they are progressing.

There is no way for them to get tuning on final bosses correct until they see the actual numbers these guilds are putting up when clearing the early ones.

The only reason Alleria didn't get buffed imo is because it was another Gallywix situation where they tried to be cute and hide the entire dungeon journal for the fight and assumed it would be a puzzle. They should just stop doing this since it's not going to take these guilds that long to figure it out anyways.

[Rageonit]

I mean the slew of hotfixes it got the week before were a sign the original version was terribly undertuned.

If all 3 raids came out at once, the race would have been over a week last Friday.

Did you not read the rest of my post?
Those bosses were not tuned, because Blizzard probably didn't try to tune them. What's the point of tuning bosses that stand there and do nothing, because noone can get to them yet, if you know you will probably have to turn the knobs anyway when data comes in?

[Northern Goblin]

Did you not read the rest of my post?
Those bosses were not tuned, because Blizzard probably didn't try to tune them. What's the point of tuning bosses that stand there and do nothing, because noone can get to them yet, if you know you will probably have to turn the knobs anyway when data comes in?

Yes I did.

Hence my "if all three were released at once."

Blizzard wouldn't have had the time to figure out how to properly tune and balance L'ura before Liquid and Echo would be pulling it.

The only reason they managed to make adjustments was they had the grace of several days to harvest data and properly balance. We would have been in a Sarkareth situation had MoQD been out the same time as the rest.

There's no guarantee they would have been tuned decently for week 1 when you look at the state of everything else, especially Alleria.

[Tech614]

The only reason they managed to make adjustments was they had the grace of several days to harvest data and properly balance.

They literally did the same shit in Nerubar Palace when the first 4 bosses got 1 shot so nope.

They always adjust health and damage of the final bosses based off data they get from early ones. The only difference here was they had even more time to do it.

There's no guarantee they would have been tuned decently for week 1 when you look at the state of everything else, especially Alleria.

Again, Alleria was a Gallywix problem of them thinking hiding the mechanics will make the fight a puzzle and they still figure it out too quick. They didn't buff Gallywix or Alleria because they thought the puzzle element would block these guilds for awhile and both times liquid just out smarted blizzard in record time. The only thing hidden about L'ura was p4, the entire rest of the fight was in the journal unlike Alleria. Blizzard looks at these situations completely differently based off both Gallywix and Alleria being tuned pathetically while they thought they could stump guilds on them.

[Rageonit]

Yes I did.

Hence my "if all three were released at once."

Blizzard wouldn't have had the time to figure out how to properly tune and balance L'ura before Liquid and Echo would be pulling it.

The only reason they managed to make adjustments was they had the grace of several days to harvest data and properly balance. We would have been in a Sarkareth situation had MoQD been out the same time as the rest.

There's no guarantee they would have been tuned decently for week 1 when you look at the state of everything else, especially Alleria.

I think we can safely assume that Blizzard knew March is coming out a week later and that they have more than enough time to gather data and tune it properly at the right moment. Everything else is a speculation on your part, but hey! Three years ago there was indeed that Sarkareth situation, so you never know what would've happened (although I'm not really sure what's the point of discussing it).