Dragonflight and TWW

[czarek]

Both feels a bit cozy and i dont know how to call it. Maybe a bit out of context ? Dunno but i do feel Warcraft in Warcraft in Midnight. 1st time after many years tbh :P

[Velshin]

It is neither careless nor apathy, it's simply the well-reasoned understanding that my voice alone isn't going to change the direction of an established franchise. Nor do I want that, as I much prefer to let authors and storytellers tell the story they want to tell without inserting myself or my opinions into it - I'll judge it for myself, after it's been told, and decide for myself whether I like it or not. That process seldom requires an audience. Also, the mere idea of assuming my opinions or lack thereof as concerns a video game's story constitutes some aspect of my personal values is, well, laughable. Do you judge everyone by their critical assessments of popular fiction or video games? Is someone a base coward because they don't like "The Legend of Zelda" in your strange echo chamber of a world?

Sorry, I can't take anything you say in good faith, so this exchange is increasingly pointless. You're either putting on some kind of bizarre show of effective override as performance art, or you're being completely and bizarrely irrational.

I totally agree with you here and for sure one voice and one stand doesnt matter and doesnt affect much for sure. And I agree with you when it comes to single olayer games like Zelda or Any other single player games.

However, making a stand for an online games specially a game like WoW does make affect a lot. Maybe one voice or two doesnt matter much but if many players make a stand on something? Yes it will make a difference. Prime example will be the return of WoW classic in 2019, back then Blizzard were against the idea of going back into releasing classic but many players made a stand and wanted a classic to come back and guess what? Blizzard brought it back.

[Aucald]

I totally agree with you here and for sure one voice and one stand doesnt matter and doesnt affect much for sure. And I agree with you when it comes to single olayer games like Zelda or Any other single player games.

However, making a stand for an online games specially a game like WoW does make affect a lot. Maybe one voice or two doesnt matter much but if many players make a stand on something? Yes it will make a difference. Prime example will be the return of WoW classic in 2019, back then Blizzard were against the idea of going back into releasing classic but many players made a stand and wanted a classic to come back and guess what? Blizzard brought it back.

I'm a firm believer that when it comes to mass media and entertainment, the most powerful thing any single person can use is their wallet - basically the old cliche "Don't like it? Don't buy it." Talk is cheap, but if enough people cancel their subscriptions or don't buy the product, that's a much more powerful statement than any professional criticism or even an open petition from the playerbase. I know people like to think the clamor for Classic somehow forced Blizzard to cave to their demands as well, but I've honestly never bought into that narrative. I've always felt Classic was going to be a given in time, and that Blizzard was merely waiting until the appropriate slump in Retail to break the proverbial glass in case of emergency and make it available. The hemming, hedging, and hawing on the developers' parts always had the patina of being cagey, a way to present a positive face to what was, at its heart, a business decision made solely based on margins and demographics (as most business decisions in media are). This isn't to say popular demand is *never* a factor, but both experience and a degree of insider knowledge have shown me that it is far less powerful than most people think it is, in the general sense.

[Velshin]

I'm a firm believer that when it comes to mass media and entertainment, the most powerful thing any single person can use is their wallet - basically the old cliche "Don't like it? Don't buy it." Talk is cheap, but if enough people cancel their subscriptions or don't buy the product, that's a much more powerful statement than any professional criticism or even an open petition from the playerbase. I know people like to think the clamor for Classic somehow forced Blizzard to cave to their demands as well, but I've honestly never bought into that narrative. I've always felt Classic was going to be a given in time, and that Blizzard was merely waiting until the appropriate slump in Retail to break the proverbial glass in case of emergency and make it available. The hemming, hedging, and hawing on the developers' parts always had the patina of being cagey, a way to present a positive face to what was, at its heart, a business decision made solely based on margins and demographics (as most business decisions in media are). This isn't to say popular demand is *never* a factor, but both experience and a degree of insider knowledge have shown me that it is far less powerful than most people think it is, in the general sense.

I agree that money and subs does the most talking when it comes to subbed based online game for sure. However, I dont think Blizzard originally planned to bring back classic WoW tbh, remember the good old Allen Brack quote? The you think you do but you dont? And how later on Blizzard had to get the old cartridge back to bring back classic? Yeah I dont think it was part of the plan originally. I maybe wrong but at least it felt this way.

[Doffen]

TWW is part of the Worldsoul Saga. Beledar might have some use for the broader story. Not every story in TWW would have its conclusion as its a three expansion's story.

Beledar was probably going to be used in TWW, but there was some changes as we know(Harandar etc) so they might have decided to change when that story would occur. Or use it for something else entirely.

It did have a purpose of showing how it affects the Arathis daily life, and it starts the saga with Light good, Void bad. But I do think Beledar will be included in the future.

[Aucald]

I agree that money and subs does the most talking when it comes to subbed based online game for sure. However, I dont think Blizzard originally planned to bring back classic WoW tbh, remember the good old Allen Brack quote? The you think you do but you dont? And how later on Blizzard had to get the old cartridge back to bring back classic? Yeah I dont think it was part of the plan originally. I maybe wrong but at least it felt this way.

In 2013, I don't think they planned it in the immediate sense, no, but I think it was always an option they knew they had, and I think they were far more prepared to do it than the player base wants to admit. Much hay has been made of Brack's quote, and it's part of what I was referring to by their "cageyness" about it - but Brack's quote is mostly just PR talk, an easy rationalization and handwave as to why it hadn't been done at that time. Their having to hunt down old hardware to actually do it is more or less just a reality of development. The point is that the player base wants to imagine itself as some form of irresistible force that literally made Blizzard release Classic against their own will. The reality is that Blizzard likely always considered it inevitable and was content to publicly delay and deny until it became economically viable in a marketing sense. Their seemingly sudden heel-face turn wasn't the result of buckling to popular pressure as much as tacit acknowledgment that the marketing reality had changed, and it was time to break that glass.

- - - Updated - - -

TWW is part of the Worldsoul Saga. Beledar might have some use for the broader story. Not every story in TWW would have its conclusion as its a three expansion's story.

Beledar was probably going to be used in TWW, but there was some changes as we know(Harandar etc) so they might have decided to change when that story would occur. Or use it for something else entirely.

It did have a purpose of showing how it affects the Arathis daily life, and it starts the saga with Light good, Void bad. But I do think Beledar will be included in the future.

I'm personally of the mind that the storylines about the Arathi Empire and Avaloren are story seeds meant to set the stage for expansion story arcs following the WSS. Beledar and its importance to the Arathi Empire will probably become a factor again later on, after TLT's release and ending.

[Teriz]

Both feels a bit cozy and i dont know how to call it. Maybe a bit out of context ? Dunno but i do feel Warcraft in Warcraft in Midnight. 1st time after many years tbh :P

Maybe because of all the conflict happening?

I feel that the best part of Midnight is definitely the Armani because of their relationship with the Blood Elves. I hope they become playable.

[Mehrunes]

DF is the most nothing expansion so far. Expansions like WoD and BfA may have been flaming garbage, but at least that made you feel something. And the few things DF did make me feel was just pure cringe. Like dragons reduced to "just humans with shapeshifting" in terms of characterization, all that focus on "muh family" as if they hang out with Vin Diesel 24/7 and especially that godforsaken Blue Dragonflight picture, the "Infinite Dragonflight was just misunderstood, but now they are also family" and everything to do with Chromie.

And everything that made Warcraft Warcraft has been sanded off and replaced with peak millennial writing of everyone just talking about their feelings, forgiveness at any cost being extolled as the highest virtue ever, utterly unnatural dialogue that sounds like taken straight from the writers' therapy sessions, the writers using the story as a soapbox to moralize to the player and unification of all races and factions kicked into an even higher gear than before.

Not to mention the entire point of bringing the Aspects back resulted in absolutely nothing so far and they haven't bothered lifting a finger to protect Azeroth sinde Fyrakk.

TWW was on the other hand a disjointed mess. My favorite part was how utterly irrelevant the Earthen were to anything from Siren Isle onward, in the expansion that made them playable and where half of the original zones revolved around them. The way we just solved all their problems was also beyond rushed and while it did make sense some Earthen would be willing to explore outside of Khaz Algar afterwards, the same cannot be applied to them joining either of the factions.

[Osmeric]

Both feels a bit cozy and i dont know how to call it. Maybe a bit out of context ? Dunno but i do feel Warcraft in Warcraft in Midnight. 1st time after many years tbh :P

I like cozy. My favorite zones have been cozy ones, not crapsack disaster zones. Cozy zones ground the game and make it feel more real.

This is one of the reasons I bounced so hard off SL -- no cozy.

[justawower]

TWW moreso than Dragonflight for me, yeah. Just because Dragonflight introduced dragon riding which is pretty huge.

[kranur]

Dragonflight did change the systems for the better .. dragonriding, talents, gear upgrade and world events (this as a very mixed bag).
Other than that it was the most cringe expansion ever, everything was just incredibly lame from start to finish.
TWW just build on the formula and dropped some of the cringefest.

[ro9ue]

I'm a firm believer that when it comes to mass media and entertainment, the most powerful thing any single person can use is their wallet - basically the old cliche "Don't like it? Don't buy it." Talk is cheap, but if enough people cancel their subscriptions or don't buy the product, that's a much more powerful statement than any professional criticism or even an open petition from the playerbase.

This is right of course.

That said, WoW exists in a bit of a unique position. It effectively has a monopoly on the MMO genre. MMOs aren't just games for a lot of players, they're a hobby. And like a Netflix subscription, players are going to stick with the best available product - usually, that's WoW.

So even if players are generally unhappy, Blizz will continue to make money through sheer inertia.

As much as many people like FF14/ESO/GW2 etc, we need to be real: they're not in the same ballpark. I often flee to one of those when I'm really disconnected from WoW, but on some level I know this is only a temporary home until something in WoW piques my interest.

The reality is, nothing changes until one thing happens: a good competitor.

Overwatch was limping along for years because it was the best hero shooter. Then Marvel Rivals came along and suddenly they realized they had to fight for their players again. And in that same vein I believe the last realistic hope for WoW and this genre is the Riot MMO.

It's not a guaranteed success but it has all the makings of one:

• A comparable, broadly appealing aesthetic like WoW
• A massive built-in audience and character attachment from LoL and Arcane, similar to what WC3 did for WoW
• Established game dev studio with truckloads of money

So yeah, I don't buy WoW collector's editions anymore. I sub less and spend less on the cash shop.

But until there’s a real alternative, I’ll probably stay at least somewhat active.

There just isn’t anywhere else to go.

[exochaft]

As much as many people like FF14/ESO/GW2 etc, we need to be real: they're not in the same ballpark. I often flee to one of those when I'm really disconnected from WoW, but on some level I know this is only a temporary home until something in WoW piques my interest.

The reality is, nothing changes until one thing happens: a good competitor.

Ideally, that's what would happen. In reality, the genre is more likely to fizzle out due to waning interest in what is available combined with game studios reducing/removing money and support for MMO's. There is definitely a market out there for people who are dying for the next best MMO, but whether it's fiscally viable is another story.

Each one of the MMO's you listed has a die-hard base that will never leave the game as long as servers are live, and if that base can sustain the fiscal models that each MMO has then the chances of said MMO's staying around for the foreseeable future is good enough.

Based upon what actual data from Blizz, I'd generously estimate that WoW's floor player base is roughly 1 million players; essentially, that means that if Blizz went full scorched earth with the game and was caught causing mass genocide babies and implementing extortion schemes with their company while cloning Hitler for world domination, they'd still probably have about a million people still sub to their game. This is the group of people who are either institutionalized by the game so that they'll never leave no matter how bad it gets or don't care what Blizz does outside the game. There is turn within this group, but the turn rate is extremely low compared to the rest of the players. Now, the question is can WoW survive with that many people in the long-term.

If we were talking back in the earlier days of Blizz, I think the answer would be more positive that Blizz could survive with only have the floor amount of players still paying for WoW. The reason is that Blizz had other IP's and games to potentially siphon funds to help keep the lights on and the servers running, as even established MMO's are bloody expensive compared to other games. Nowadays, Blizz has burned many bridges when it comes to their game quality as well as treatment of their customers, so even their other projects probably struggle way more than they would have decades ago, losing the monetary padding that once could have been. While WoW doesn't have to deal with start-up costs and initial investments to get the ball rolling, their maintenance costs just to keep the game running isn't small.

What's more, Microsoft could potentially weigh in at some point, stating that while WoW may not technically be losing money they'd rather shut down the game because it's not making enough money. While Blizz has had its own fair share of hamstringing themselves over the years due to internal policies and acquisitions, their position as being a part of Microsoft is such that they have less control over their own destiny than they did decades ago. The more frequent push for advertisements and crossovers is a sign that the pressure is likely on to make WoW more fiscally viable, as well as all the MTX that has crept into the game over time.

WoW is one of those games that was lightning in a bottle: it came at the right time under the right set of conditions, designed in a way to blossom into the greatness it once was. Expecting that to happen twice would require an immense amount of effort, and I don't think Blizz is in the position nor has the correct mindset to recreate such an experience. Doesn't meant WoW can't establish itself to stick around for years to come, it's just going to have to work harder due to the changing of the times and the company's frequent lack of adapting to the needs and wants of their customers.

I say all this because I still love WoW and wish for it to be around for years to come. However, I also realize that WoW is a shell of its former self and could be waaaay better, the game being run by a company that is also a shell of its former self. I also realize that MMO's as a desired genre is also struggling in the gaming market, and either a game or new tech needs to come out to reinvigorate the market or push the genre into new territory. I do not think WoW on its own is capable of this needed reinvigoration as it is now, as it has become the game that it was originally designed to not emulate.