DoTs and Resilience

[Nuch]

Hey all,

My main is a Warlock and I've been reading a bit lately with regards to the implementation of resilence to DoTs, so naturally, this will have an effect (albeit how large we do not know) to my style of gameplay. Just wanted to read some reactions with regards to the fairness of such an idea. Now before I get flamed to death, this is not a qq thread - I am not complaining about it. I posted here in the hopes of finding a level of maturity that well, can be said to be lacking in the regular WoW forums. I just wonder how this would be done in such a way that would be considered as fair to the classes that rely on DoTs. My logic is simple; take it as you will - and yes, realize that like I said, my main is a Warlock, so of course I'm a bit biased.

Affliction warlocks, and to an extent some Soul Link warlocks, rely on DoTs as their primary source of damage in PVP combat. A resilience buff to fight mitigate DoT damage seems to be in line with direct nerf. I can see how running by a Warlock in a bg and getting tagged with 3 DoTs only to lose 50%+ health can be very frustrating, or having DoTs kill after the said Warlock has in fact been killed. With this I agree, something should be looked into. My problem is that when resilience was implemented, it was done to prevent the classic 2-3 shots that were notorious to many classes. By simple logic, DoTs do not kill within 5 seconds with a character at full or even half health. If DoTs were to be affected by resilience, how could Blizzard implement such a system as to balance out this problem (beyond making DoTs crit), and so it wasn't singled out as a nerf to Warlocks (and Shadow Priests)?

With this in mind, how would it be fair to Warlocks (and Shadow Priests) that their main source of damage is 'nerfed' while other classes that do not rely on DoTs primarily for damage walk away scotch free? I guess the only answer I see is that those classes saw their end of the nerf with the implementation of resilience on a whole, and now its time to share this with all specs.

Please keep comments informative, we'd all pull much more from it.

- Nuch

[Stengah]

I think this will probably be turn out to be a balance that was required and will hopefully stop people rolling so many warlocks. Allthough it is a bit frustrating as all the +dmg gear you have aquired to get 'the edge' becomes mitigated by this change. Oh well, makes it more fun. Being OP == boring.

--Stengah.

[Zakenfein]

this balance was deffinately needed. I find it unfair that a lock can spend 4 seconds DOTing someone then run away and watch the person die, meanwhile they can DOT more people and watch more people die without actually stopping to cast anything. DOT are way OP to classes that cant disspell them for that reason.

[m0rfin]

You're fine, move on children.

[Deleted]

4 seconds doting people up cant and will not get them killed.Unstable Affliction has a 1.5 sec cast.Take into consideration global cooldowns and you can see that it's not possible it in 4 seconds.

Even if you manage to fully dot a player he is healable and there are counter measures to it.Rogues can cast Cloak of Shadows to get rid of dots.Most Arena mages are Frost Spec so they can IceBlock through it etc.Even if you dont have a counter measure you can heal through it.Its a big PvP nerf targeted primarily for Warlocks and secondary to Shadow Priests.

Resilience was indeed introduced to avoid 2 shots.A 15-20% reduction in effective dot damage is big.It is directly scaling down Spell damage on the Warlock Arena Gear,since most Arena Warlocks are either dot specced or demonology specced(so they kinda have nothing else to do than dot).

Most classes dont get that reduction through Resilience...Yes my main is a Warlock

[Biggo]

I wonder whether people will still use a mix of shadow res/resilience gear to make it even harder for warlocks, or whether they'll just stick with their resilience gear.

Was it actually release how much resilience would effect the DoT?

EDIT: Nevermind ^ I just read the last line of the blue post

[isaaru]

i simple way of explaining this is....when they came out w/ reslilence it nerfed everyone...everyone but the few afilcion locks and shadowpreists that blizzard must have *forgot about* while adding items w/ resilience to TBC, so in a way this is hardly a nerf, for your only being taken down to the same lvl as every else was a few mounths ago...........and the resilince will lower the % of dmg delt by dots by the same % resilience lowers the dmg of crits from all other sources of damage

[wimperd]

I dont think the damage reduction in the case of dots is the answer since for some people (affliction locks) this is the main source of damage its not based on any % its just there, not like crits. I would say they should let resilience affect dots in a different way. maybe the more resilience you have the less time a DoT affect you.

Like when you have 300 resilience they dot will only tick for 50% of the time.
This way dots will be like sheeps and other CC in PvP, While its taking a lot longer in PvE, in PvP you can only be sheeped for 12 seconds.

[Nuch]

Okay few things:

First off, PvE is not affected by resilience... so no this 'nerf' would not hurt Warlock PvE dps.

Secondly, resilience affecting DoTs as much as they do in damage reduced from crits would be huge. Good teams have atleast 200+ resil, and that's pretty weak in itself. That would mean a minimum of 10% damage reduced off DoTs, and therefore a straightline damage reduction to "DoT speced" warlocks on a whole. You are missing the point: this is not a crit, DoTs are the main source of damage from these types of warlocks (and shadow priests). The only way to put that into perspective would be to say non crit damage from all classes be reduced by however much resilience, which would be simply ludicrous.

Thirdly and most importantly, this isn't about the 'why' DoTs should or should not be affected by resilience, but 'how' they would be in a fair manner. We can argue all day as to why they should or shouldn't be. Look one step beyond that.

- Nuch

[Brenador]

First let me say that i am playing warlock since the release of wow as my main (don't really have highlevel alts) and currently the warlocks class feels very well balanced (from a warlocks point of view) which proabably means that we are overpowered (from the view of everyone else). Of course the overpoweredness only holds for PvP it seems (most classses seem to be very well-balanced for PvE) and so we come to the announced "nerf" to our beloved DoTs:

Some theorycrafting with regards to a part of the blue text:

The amount of damage reduced will be equal to the critical chance reduction effect that resilience grants

This would mean that with roughly 40 resilliance rating we lose 1% damage from our Dots, so for a PvP gear equipped player lets say we lose 10% damage from all DoTs. Obviously this is a nerf in the apsect of damage we can deal since most talent builts are DoT centered (Destruction builts are rather rarely seen in arena teams at least).

But honestly: I don't feel like whining too much about a 10% damage nerf that only affects PvP situations, where you face a PvP equipped opponent (which can be in BG from time to time but is more important in areana matches obviously). So what will change in arena games? My experience there is rather limited, since i only play ~20 games a week in the 3vs3 bracket teamed up with a paladin and a warrior. In those fights i would roughly estimate that my playstyle is 60% CC and 40% damage. Most of the time i am busy with adding Curses on our opponents, fearing like a madman, timing spelllock/deathcoil for finishing moves or running away from warrior/rogues/feraldruids. This would mean if my direct interpretation of the quoted line is correct i would lose around 4% damage while still having full CC options.

To sum up: If they just add a percentage damage reduction to DoTs as explained above there is really no need to whine about this nerf. It is just fine and most likely will not change the amount of "omg nerf warlocks" threads on the wow-forums.

my 2copper cents

Brena

[Deleted]

The only way to put that into perspective would be to say non crit damage from all classes be reduced by however much resilience, which would be simply ludicrous.

No, you have to look at damage as a whole, normal plus critical, if you want your comparison of damage dealt by low crit or high crit classes to be valid.
The way to put that into perspective is to look at how much damage crit heavy classes lost (not only on crit but as a % of global damage) due to resilience. On which i have no opinion since i don't PvP much but could largely be 10% too.

[Juju]

I play both a mage and a lock, and I play them both in arenas (so you know where I stand).
I must admit I am happy with this nerf, my lock is soul link speced, and even in 2v2 most of what I do is CC (which is where locks are being rly annoying to kill for most classes).
If you think about it, the real dmg one does in an arena in done by crits, an affliction lock had therefore a huge advantage there since their dmg had no way to be countered other than with shadow resist (and fire... but that seems silly...). Dots being affected by resilience is a good thing, although I would say they shouldnt be affected by it as much as Blizz is making it. Seems to me that if u get 10% dmg reduction from a crit 5% dmg from a dot would be enough to balance all classes vs locks (remember, I play a mage mostly...).
That said, I'll always think that unless u have a LOT of resislience, you should always go for more dmg/crit to beat anyone.
I do also have a question: Will resilience affact moves such as rend or rogue poisons?

[Zakenfein]

the thing about it affecting whole damage because DOTs cant crit is totally fair. Affliction locks can stack +spell dmg and make their DOT tick a ton harder, while they can have 0% +crit since their DOTs cant crit. This leads to much more powerful DOTs and that is why it is being balanced.

[Juju]

the thing about it affecting whole damage because DOTs cant crit is totally fair. Affliction locks can stack +spell dmg and make their DOT tick a ton harder, while they can have 0% +crit since their DOTs cant crit. This leads to much more powerful DOTs and that is why it is being balanced.

I agree, but I'm justr not sure giving 10% resistance to DoT's is a good idea when i think 5% would be enough to make it balanced... Then again, I guess blizz spent much more time calculating this than I have...
Heck, I play a lock, and I always thought they needed some kind of nerf in pvp, well, here it is (same goes for shadow priests!)

[Bedlam]

I don't think bleed effects (you mentioned rend, there's also deep wounds as nearly all warriors will have it) will be affected by resilience. From what I can remember bleeds bypass all armor, well resilience is an armor stat really so surely it should bypass it also, and tick for the same amount... not that it's much anyway.

[Falgorn]

I have numerous issues with the current implementation.

Lets start with my prime grievance. I'm destruction spec, and its a PvE oriented destruction spec. I do however like to PvP (world mostly, some BG and no Arena) and Its what I play for, though I detest the lack of non bg combat as I find them stagnant and repetetive.

As a destruction lock I already live with resillience in PvP as something which does and will affect my damage. What I have a problem with is that my dots are now going to be weaker, despite the fact that I do not have the type of dot damage which is causing problems in PvP.

This is a nerf to all locks, but non affliction locks are getting hit damn hard here too.

Furthermore, the current implementation does not seem to take into account the numerous constraints which dot damage already suffer from. Dots take longer to do the same damage as DD abilities, but they continue to do so without any further requirements on the part of the caster. This is what balances them out. However, they can be cleansed, and given their slower drawn out damage they can also be mitigated by healing and potting and eating etc.

The introduction of resillience was intended to stop 1 - 2 shotting in PvP which it has done for those whom invested in the stat. Dots do not 1 - 2 shot people. Crit dmg in Pvp has the ability to kill someone regardless of whether they have healing or health potions etc, as the damage is too fast to react to. Dots do not do this. Crit damage is dealt instantly and is final. Dot damage is not instant, and can be cleansed and otherwise mitigated.

For all these reasons, I can not fathom why dots are now subject to resillince resistence.

IMO, PvP gear should have higher armor, and + X resist all stats. This would effect everyone equally, and would not lead to such a poorly thought nerf as this.

I'm yet again amazed that Blizzard has given in so easily to the whiners. This game is getting like another SOE knee jerk nerf fest.

[Rae Rae]

2 points:

Firstly, please link where Blizz said resilience was made to stop 1-2 hit kills and not in fact implement to make pvp combat longer, as well as dividing pvp with pve and therefore being able to give equal loot as raiding, which is better for pvp and not as good for pve.
If it is to draw out combat, then having it affect dot's is fair game, as this will increase the length of combat.

Secondly, if increasing armor and resistances was implemented instead of resilience - then surely this would be useful for pve and make pvp a viable alternative to raiding to gain access to higher instances?

Finally (I know I said 2 points, sorry about that), but as a destro lock, you were only half (i have no idea exactly) affected by Resilience, this change will bring you on a par with other classes. I do agree though, that afflication dominating pvp has an adverse affect on spriests and dlocks but I dont see this as a terrible solution, merely a fairly sloppy half-assed effort.

[Wheatthins]

Since when does Resilence help against spells? It says that it reduces your dmg to be crit by melee I thought... That's what you hear rogues and warriors cry so much...

Wheaties

[Eaglesgift]

My recollection is that resilience was added to the game as a way to functionally differentiate between PVP and PVE gear. It was a direct response to the days before XPAC when epic decked raiding guilds could casually step into a battleground and own the PVP/Warlord geared opponents though sheer gear imbalance. The notion that it was designed to limit 2 shotting people was a myth generated by many on the forums who viewed that event, though rare, as a problem needing a fix.

That said. Resilience has been working fairly well. Once a player accumulates 150 resilience or so, the impact becomes obvious though still a bit subtle. It is a good stat.

Now, if you assume that locks and shadow priests have been roughly balanced against the other classes and that balance does not assume the existence of resilience, it is apparent that resilience is serving to give a greater advantage to the dot damage classes than was intended. Indeed, as more resilience comes into the game, the resulting imbalance becomes even more evident. The percent reduction in dot damage based on target resilience seems justified and if properly tuned it should be fair. I personally think Blizz should change the dynamic of dot damage to allow it to crit (though to be fair this would require a significant reduction in dot base damage) and let resilience function as it has.

My concern about resilience at the moment stems from Blizz now putting the stat on some PVE acquired items and gemstones. To me, they are setting up the subversion of the resilience stat and eventually risk it failing to perform its original and necessary role.

[Falgorn]

I don't have any links and I'm not that bothered looking for any, but when resillience was first introduced a blue 'explanation' post elaborated that the intention behind the stat was to make PvP combat last longer by preventing people from being 1 - 2 hit, and as mentioned above, to differentiate between pvp and pve gear.

My point still stands. Dot damage takes time and can be mitigated by healing cleansing eating or in some cases warding (shadow ward, fire ward etc).

Direct Damage can not until after all the damage has been applied. A frost bolt hits you for 3k, that damage is done and the caster moves on. A dot can tick you down for 3k, but its going to take 18 - 30 seconds, and during that time you have many many options at your disposal.

Resillience applying to this form of damage doesn't make sense to me at all and it is of direct consequence to Spell damage on Affliction locks, as opposed to crit chance on other classes.

If the developers in some way feel that affliction Warlocks are overperforming in PvP then look at affliction locks as a talent spec, and not simply the effect which that spec has on dot damage. This nerf reeks of second hand whine, and is a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction to the complaints of people who dislike running around with debuffs, but have no problem knocking out 2k aimed shots.