DoTs and Resilience

[Sheyz]

No, I am right, and you are wrong!

In PvP, you have only one gear available, the one given to you by Blizzard: you do not chose betwen PA en CC, to think that is illusionnary. your stats depends of your gear, which depends of what blizzard decides.

i.e.: a rogue in full veteran + gladia gear will have very high CC and low PA/ to hit. Same with warrio, and mage.

and anyhow: everyone have CC, so everyone is nerfed by resilience... everyone, except DoTs users, of course!
So let's face it, you are just a bitter warlock used to have unfair advantage, and now you whine bcause it is corrected.

As for the 2-3 shot hing: an affli warlock can pout 5 dots on a guy, 3 of which are instant cast. and of course, non dispellable, as their last DoT detonate on dispel.

In arena, in less than 15 seconds, he can dish out enough damage to kill 2 to 3 opponants (even if they'll die 20 seconds later). No other class can do that, even in using CDs, in so short a time.

And finnally, DoTs will not fully affected by resilience, as the most a player will be able to mitigate will be about 10% damage, in full PvP gear. At the same level of resilience, the effect on CC is 10% CC avoidance et 20% CC damage reduction. On classes that have to rely on CC to be effective, this is a killer (and no, they cannot chose to simly switch from CC to PA: you can only very slightly customize your gear, especially in PvP).

I do agree that resilience should aplys simply on all damage dealt. on that I think you are right (see, I am not a total ass *gniark niark*. but as Blizzard chose another path, what they will do is the next best thing!

Soooo stop whining!!

[Falgorn]

You really have gotten me completely all wrong. For starts, I'm not an affliction lock, I play SM ruin, previously Destruction.

Secondly, I have no arena rating because I seldom if EVER fight in arena. I don't do battlegrounds much either, but I fight in World PvP every chance I get whilst not raiding. I don't think of BG's or Arena's as PvP, they are farming players for points which is a waste of time imo.

I'm looking at this as objectivly as you are and simply saying that resilience is not the way to control dots in PvP.

You actually completely made my point for me, better than I ever could:

In arena, in less than 15 seconds, he can dish out enough damage to kill 2 to 3 opponants (even if they'll die 20 seconds later). No other class can do that, even in using CDs, in so short a time.

35 seconds on 2 characters.

Tell me ANY class that can not do two other players in that amount of time? When my Paladin was retribution I could do that easy. Real DPS classes can go through someone in 20 seconds even with high resilience. The point is, that 20 seconds leaves SO much time to heal, cleanse, shield etc etc. You don't get that sort of mitigation on other forms of damage.

All it takes is for 1 of those 2 to be a Paladin, Priest, Rogue, Frost mage etc and all that damage is gone. Done and dusted, out the window, before a token amount of damage is taken.

As for gear itemisation. Even when using the PvP set there is massive scope for enchanting and wearing offset items to boost specific stats. How do you think Warlocks have gotten their SP so high when their PvP gear is as crit based as everyone elses.

[Sheyz]

You don't do arena, nor BG. So you you don't know a thing about high end PvP in WoW.

I should have known

Not only wrong, but ignorant to bout!

[Falgorn]

You don't do arena, nor BG. So you you don't know a thing about high end PvP in WoW.

I should have known

Not only wrong, but ignorant to bout!

To jump to such a conclusion is beyond ignorance itself. I have every piece of high end PvP gear outside of arena's from honour mostly gained in World PvP, and just enough BG's to gather the requisite tokens. Thats an awful lot of killing in Halaa / Helfire Pens etc, and it's not done in the pre focused climate of Arena PvP, nor with the assitance of a group.

You have yet to engage me on 90% of the completely valid issues I have raised, and on those which you did respond, you simply showed that you do not know how to fight warlocks, nor how to gear yourself properly. There is nothing I like better than running into Peeps wearing Gladiator gear, free epics do not make a player skilled.

[Sheyz]

I answered to 100% of your whine/post:

All the exemle you take are how DD are better than DoTs.
SO I repeat: DoTs have disadvantages. DoTs have advantages. One of the disadvantages is that DoTs don't Crit.

That was was true before resilience became live. It is true after. what changes, is that resilience affects DDs, while it has 0 affect on DoTs.

So, I gather that takes care of your argumenting. You did one valid comment, it's that resleince should affect all damage equally.

oh, and I'd love running into you. Or i'd love to see you running into a full glad warrior That got to be fun to watch!

Plus farming VH in halaa and Helfire, zones that are lvl 60 to 65! wooaaww!! So not only you are full of it, but your a freaking low level farmer!!

Those lvl 65 full gladiator geared must real hard to kill indeed! Oh wait, must be lvl 70 to do arean wooopsiee!! More Bullshit from you!!

[overneathe]

if falgorn = reply then do /popcorn and beer

[Falgorn]

I answered to 100% of your whine/post:

All the exemle you take are how DD are better than DoTs.
SO I repeat: DoTs have disadvantages. DoTs have advantages. One of the disadvantages is that DoTs don't Crit.

That was was true before resilience became live. It is true after. what changes, is that resilience affects DDs, while it has 0 affect on DoTs.

So, I gather that takes care of your argumenting. You did one valid comment, it's that resleince should affect all damage equally.

oh, and I'd love running into you. Or i'd love to see you running into a full glad warrior That got to be fun to watch!

Plus farming VH in halaa and Helfire, zones that are lvl 60 to 65! wooaaww!! So not only you are full of it, but your a freaking low level farmer!!

Those lvl 65 full gladiator geared must real hard to kill indeed! Oh wait, must be lvl 70 to do arean wooopsiee!! More Bullshit from you!!

Don't know how things go on your server, but World PvP zones in Outland are flooded at post raid times, around 10 server time onwards on my server and it's pretty much all the PvP you could ask for in an unconstrained environment.

Resilience has 0 effect on DD spec classes that focus on Spell Damage instead of Crit, just the same as dots. If you can't understand this, then I have nothing more to say to you. And no, you haven't engaged on many of the points I have made, you are sticking to your single line of flawed logic.

I notice it's a Ful Glad Warrior you pick to pit my doom against, and not a Warlock.. As for you running into me? Well let me just say, that my Daddy is Bigger than Your Daddy and leave it at that.

And I don't farm honour anywhere, like I said, I don't care for it, I just like getting a good fight, where I don't have to rely on anything but my skill. Arena, is closed team combat and brings nothing exciting or new to PvP.

/Popcorn and Beer.

P.s This isn't my whine post, I have said all along that affliction needs to be looked at, just that resilience is a cheap easy way to do it, and far from the best way to do it, or a good way to do it for the class as a whole.

[Mantisen]

Guys really, sure there are different views of the matter of DoT's and what impact resilience should have on it. But there's no need to stoop to the level where you're accusing eachother of being ignorant / stupid or any other type of flame war.
Fact is resiliance affecting DoT's will have a big impact on warlocks pvp tactics, you have both made valid points on the matter! So please stop the flaming.

There are reasons for farming 60-65 areas since such kills are easier and sometimes more rewarding than farming 70 areas, this do however not mean he have never encountered 70's at the same spot farming the same things.

Best wishes to both of you.
Mantisen.

[overneathe]

Mate, don't make them stop, I love these kinds of posts because they expand the knowledge of the players in it to unimaginable hightes. I like that because I can always learn from them. :]

[Sheyz]

Hum mantisen is right, and I'll stop the flamming, even so it was fun to do it on selfrightousFelgornIamrightbecauseIsaidso
OOps did it again!!

Okay, i'll stop

[Falgorn]

Hum mantisen is right, and I'll stop the flamming, even so it was fun to do it on selfrightousFelgornIamrightbecauseIsaidso
OOps did it again!!

Okay, i'll stop

It's not self righteous to believe in what you say, I know that appyling resilience to dots is the wrong way to deal with Affliction damage in PvP, and I'm confident enough in my play time, experience and the sheer amounts of numbers I have poured over in my time playing wow to say it with vehemence. Most people acknowledge that there is a problem, and I agree with the sentiment that Affliction Warlocks can be OP in certain situations, but the effect this nerf has is greater than the % effect to other classes. I know this as fact.

[Juju]

Fal, if you don't do arenas and BG's much, I don't think you should care much at all about resilience as you'll very seldomly run into someone with a high enough resil. to bother you... chances are you won't even see the difference. Resilience now affects dots simply because Blizz estimates that if rogues or mages should have a hard time to 2shot people, lock should have a hard time killing people with 3dots only then moving onto another target, granted dots can be cleansed etc etc, buit people spec specially for arenas, and they play with all of this, the one that whines are the ones that don't know what to do, or how to do it. Resilience affacts my mage dmg a lot already since, well, like a lot of mages, I rely on crits in arenas, just stacking +dmg as u said before would do me little good as I'd be dead before I can kill anything, since the only buildt that doesnt need +crit is frost, and it's very easy to be countered as well (just like dots getting dispelled), but you can deal with that by timing your spells carefully and having the right spec. (unstable affliction is a must to fight a pally or a priest in an arena, depending of course on who your teamate(s) is/are)
Main point is: Resil. won't affect your world pvp experience much at all, and it certainly won't ruin your pve experience. People in arenas are all happy about it, exept for locks and Sp's but even they understand the logic behind it. It would be no good to make resilience affect all dmg as it would affect pve too much.

[Sheyz]

I said I'd stop, but as falgorn do not, I just can't let him get away with his BS.

So, a bit of math:
A mage, do what Falgorn says: let's say he can customize his gear at will, and he end up with a max spell damage and as lilte CC as possible. However there is still the base minimum CC you get (between 4 and 5%) plus the intelligence innerant to a relatively good geared lvl 70 character.
To simplify, let's say the mage reach 10% CC, which is very low.
With 10% CC, one spell out of 10 will do double damage. So basicaly, his damage output will be increased by 10% with 10% CC (so, for a base 100: 90 normal, + 10 X2 (crits) = 110)

Our mage meet a guy with 400 resilience. The resilience negates the 10% CC chance altogether.
Our mage damages are therefore reduced by 10%

What Blizzard propose: a guy with 400 resilience will diminish DoTs damages by 10%

OH MY GOD !!!! I can't believed it!! IT IS THE SAME !!!!!
Maybe Blizzard knows what they are doing???
Noooo Surely they are wrong, because Falgorn SAID so!
and ho knows stuff!! because, he played a lot! he said so himself! and he just KNOWS that nerf is unfair!! think about it: it woull put warlocks on a par with everyone else!!
OMG, would that mean that falgorn is an vehement ass?

My gosh, yes! That's what it means!!!

Now, about chosing his own gear:

Sheyz: - Hello Mr Arena vendor!
AV:- Hello Sheyz
Sheyz:- I've got a few points to spare and I was thinking, how 'bout I get m'self some armor! Watcha got??
Av: -Lemme see... I have those nice gloves here. or maybe these leggings?
Sheyz:- hum not bad, not bad, but Falgorn, that PGMthatknowsitallandisnotafraidtosayitvehemently, told me that CC suxxxx and that I should go full PA instead! So please, show me your PA gear please!!
AV:- ...


copy and paste for all PvP gear vendor.


Miscellanious, according to falgorn himself:
Falgorn hates BG, but did enough to buy all non set top notch PvP which represents roughly 90 000 honnor points, i.e. tens of hours of BG, and at least triple that in world PvP (time needed to find your preys, no BG bonus, etc). falgorn, masochist or liar?
YOU BE THE JUDGE!
Falgorn doesn't whine, but God he can complain about that upcoming nerf a lot! For a destru warlock, that doesn't do arena, one wonder why he would even care. Ah yes, he isn't destru anymore.. so maybe it is a whine!!
Falgorn seems to forget that the natural Disavantages of DoTs are heavily compensated by other advantages (unstable DoT that renders decurse next to impossible, instant or very short time cast- without using CDs-, very high damage/mana ratio, and I am sure i forget some)


Please falgorn, if there is any part of your argumentation that i missed (seems that I forgot 90% of it earlier), feel free to remind it to me so i can further demonstrate the fraud you are.

[overneathe]

Falgorn! The new Chuck Norris! :P lol
Anyways, Boub I think you should a 'mmo-champion' title below Sheyz's name. :]

[xritta]

Falgorn! The new Chuck Norris! :P lol
Anyways, Boub I think you should a 'mmo-champion' title below Sheyz's name. :]

/agree

[Mantisen]

Hum mantisen is right ...

QFT ! I've been telling everyone this for ages, Im right!

[Juju]

You guys make me laugh :-D really you do, and I'm really not being sarcastic for once :-p

(can I be MMO-esquire?)

[Falgorn]

I said I'd stop, but as falgorn do not, I just can't let him get away with his BS.

So, a bit of math:
A mage, do what Falgorn says: let's say he can customize his gear at will, and he end up with a max spell damage and as lilte CC as possible. However there is still the base minimum CC you get (between 4 and 5%) plus the intelligence innerant to a relatively good geared lvl 70 character.
To simplify, let's say the mage reach 10% CC, which is very low.
With 10% CC, one spell out of 10 will do double damage. So basicaly, his damage output will be increased by 10% with 10% CC (so, for a base 100: 90 normal, + 10 X2 (crits) = 110)

Our mage meet a guy with 400 resilience. The resilience negates the 10% CC chance altogether.
Our mage damages are therefore reduced by 10%

What Blizzard propose: a guy with 400 resilience will diminish DoTs damages by 10%

OH MY GOD !!!! I can't believed it!! IT IS THE SAME !!!!!
Maybe Blizzard knows what they are doing???
Noooo Surely they are wrong, because Falgorn SAID so!
and ho knows stuff!! because, he played a lot! he said so himself! and he just KNOWS that nerf is unfair!! think about it: it woull put warlocks on a par with everyone else!!
OMG, would that mean that falgorn is an vehement ass?

My gosh, yes! That's what it means!!!

Now, about chosing his own gear:

Sheyz: - Hello Mr Arena vendor!
AV:- Hello Sheyz
Sheyz:- I've got a few points to spare and I was thinking, how 'bout I get m'self some armor! Watcha got??
Av: -Lemme see... I have those nice gloves here. or maybe these leggings?
Sheyz:- hum not bad, not bad, but Falgorn, that PGMthatknowsitallandisnotafraidtosayitvehemently, told me that CC suxxxx and that I should go full PA instead! So please, show me your PA gear please!!
AV:- ...


copy and paste for all PvP gear vendor.


Miscellanious, according to falgorn himself:
Falgorn hates BG, but did enough to buy all non set top notch PvP which represents roughly 90 000 honnor points, i.e. tens of hours of BG, and at least triple that in world PvP (time needed to find your preys, no BG bonus, etc). falgorn, masochist or liar?
YOU BE THE JUDGE!
Falgorn doesn't whine, but God he can complain about that upcoming nerf a lot! For a destru warlock, that doesn't do arena, one wonder why he would even care. Ah yes, he isn't destru anymore.. so maybe it is a whine!!
Falgorn seems to forget that the natural Disavantages of DoTs are heavily compensated by other advantages (unstable DoT that renders decurse next to impossible, instant or very short time cast- without using CDs-, very high damage/mana ratio, and I am sure i forget some)


Please falgorn, if there is any part of your argumentation that i missed (seems that I forgot 90% of it earlier), feel free to remind it to me so i can further demonstrate the fraud you are.

Yeah Sheyz, yet again, you missed absolutely everything in your childish little tirade.

You still cant see the absence of logic in applying a crit reducing mechanic onto spell damage, and I'm sick trying to explain it to someone that thinks arena rating makes them informed. Your excuse for maths above is embarrassing at best, completely redundant to the facts at worst and regardless, makes no reply to anything I've said.

I've said it countless times above that affliction needs to be looked at in PvP, and my point still remains that applying resilience to dots is not the way to do this as it has a significant knock on effect to other specs of Warlocks. I'm not trying to protect affliction locks, nor am I saying they are balanced, I'm trying to point out that this nerf will unfairly disadvantage non affliction locks and unbalance out of spec PvP.

In future replies, try to retain some dignity by responding like an adult. I may disagree with you, but at least I have not stooped to your level of personal assault in making my point, which I still wholly believe is correct as unlike you, I have done some research other than applying random numbers to a phantom frost mage.

If they really want to balance this mechanic then resilience would apply to all damage dealt in pvp, and not selective portions of damage depending on who is whineing the loudest on the forums.

In anycase, flame on - I've explained this too many times now and if its not sinking in i'll let you scream abuse some more so that you feel better about life. We can resurrect this discussion after the nerf is implemented and see how PvP is working out for the Warlock community.

P.S - My Honour rating is from helping guild AB / WSG teams, gathering tokens and regular AV's (Mostly up until about 6 months ago - minimal since TBC). I said I don't grind honour, nor play BGs as I don't like them. That doesn't mean I never go there, it just means that I think they are a waste of time and nothing more than an honour farm for good teams.

[Juju]

Ok, enough, Fal, most classes dps depends on crit, you'll never have to fear a rogue that doesn't crit, same goes for mages, warrs, etc. Therefore one could argue that resil. nerfs their real dmg by 10% (with the right resilience), affliction locks were not affected by this at all as they don't rely on crit at all, Shadow priest already were suffering from it as their 2.5k crits with either mindblast or shadow word death helps them lots. Therefore Blizz made it so locks would be on the same page, it's as simple as that. Resilience is for bg's and arenas, in which a destro lock's dots help him to some extend but most of his dmg is clearly from crits, therefore it's really not a big change for them, it only really nerfs Affliction and soul link locks, but you still get all your cc abilities which is what makes you a tough beast to kill in pvp (as well as your TINY 9k hp in your case, which between you and me is ridiculous for a lock in pvp).
Can we move on now?

[Falgorn]

Afaik resilience is actually being applied across the board to all dots that are boosted by AP or SP but the % damage reduction to overal dps output is greater to Certain specs of certain classes. Shadow Priests are in a similar situation to Destro Locks, and a guild druid also seemed concerned.

I'll try and host my spreadsheets when I get home and you can have a look at them yourself. I've used them for years in working out specs and min / maxing dmg in instances etc for myself and my guild and applying them to PvP has shown inconsistancies whith damage reduction from resilience. It's not as black and white as people think, and certain classes suffer a LOT more from resilience than others do. Now before you suggest that I'm contradicting myself here, let me point out that I DO think affliction locks need balancing in a resilience PvP environment, but dots + resilience is highly unbalancing way of doing this for everyone else. Resilience is producing enough inconsistancies as it is, and adding to it makes things worse not better, even if it does make aff locks less imba. It's either a carpet reduction, or none at all imo.