Again PvE items getting close to being better than PvP for PvP

[Lesane]

Is nothing for your realm but is damn good in mine.

Regardless of that it varies per realm, which makes the rating requirement flawed in some cases like I stated in my 2nd post, they are still the best weapons attainable through PVP, meant for the best PVPers only, just like the best PVE weapons are in the grasp of the best PVE'ers as well. Seriously, the rating requirement is a good idea, you can still buy season 2 weapons which are only slightly worse than the season 3 weapons (assuming the progress from s2 -> s3 is the same as s1 -> s2), which should be more than enough if you're not doing top end PVP (which you're not if you can't even get past the 1850 rating required for season 3 weapons).

Did you ever check the Armory to see what weapons most warriors in top brackets have? Most of them have SH (dont u need Vortexed i.e. PvE to get the SH crafted?) or some insane BT weapons + some insane PvE rings (also with 25 resilience dont remember name though) but ofc what I mean is that you cannot walk into an Arena with full PvE gear- you will certainly lose. A combination of both is the best.

Stormherald is a rare exception, mainly because they found it neccesary to put a slower speed on it than the PVP weapons (where slower weapons shine the most), and also because mace spec is grossly overpowered right now. Stop looking at warriors with BT and Hyjal loot. You are comparing season 2 (SSC) to Hyjal/BT, this is like comparing tier 5 to tier 6, or even better, a karazhan raider (tier 4) complaining that the best PVP weapons (season 2) are better for PVE than his own weapons. Why they put resilience rings in SSC is beyond me, but the reason for that probably is to allow players with 0 PVP gear get some PVP gear through other means than PVPing, in which they will get totally obliterated because of their lack of PVP gear.

[frosty]

The game is centered around PvE

says who...

[Secretive]

Well the game definitely has a PVE focus, it's undeniable. It doesn't have to be said, it's glaringly obvious in the amount of PvE content there is versus the amount of PvP content there is.

That being said, I think there is a little bit of a shifting of priority, not necessarily onto PvP but onto a more balanced play structure.

But I don't think there's a blue post saying "WoW is a PvE game, GTFO if you don't like PvE" or anything of that nature.

[Narzania]

Well the game definitely has a PVE focus, it's undeniable. It doesn't have to be said, it's glaringly obvious in the amount of PvE content there is versus the amount of PvP content there is.

That being said, I think there is a little bit of a shifting of priority, not necessarily onto PvP but onto a more balanced play structure.

But I don't think there's a blue post saying "WoW is a PvE game, GTFO if you don't like PvE" or anything of that nature.

I completelly agree.

Are the PvP oriented Trinkets obtained though Heroics or Battlegrounds anyone knows? But I read that we have choice of Crit or AP or we got both? If we have a choice will it be possible to get Both AP + Crit trinkets?

[Shadowclaimer]

says who...

Says every blue, read the forums more often, they constantly say it, the game was centered around PvE.

The only plans for PvP originally was faction vs faction skirmishes, then people whined for more, and they gave them the honor system, then battlegrounds, then arenas.

PvE is the game, get over it, stop whining for more welfare epics that are on par with things people actually have to work for, you don't deserve to dance for 10 games and get epics that I spend weeks attempting to obtain.

[frosty]

Says every blue, read the forums more often, they constantly say it, the game was centered around PvE.

The only plans for PvP originally was faction vs faction skirmishes, then people whined for more, and they gave them the honor system, then battlegrounds, then arenas.

PvE is the game, get over it, stop whining for more welfare epics that are on par with things people actually have to work for, you don't deserve to dance for 10 games and get epics that I spend weeks attempting to obtain.

ive not whined once on this thread- imo i think that the game is abit of both- especially since TBC with the new resilience stat, and arena- i have never stepped foot into any pve raid apart from the first boss in gruul's lair once- and i like the pvp system

[Lesane]

I completelly agree.

Are the PvP oriented Trinkets obtained though Heroics or Battlegrounds anyone knows? But I read that we have choice of Crit or AP or we got both? If we have a choice will it be possible to get Both AP + Crit trinkets?

Buyable with heroic badges. You can get both but you're stupid if you do so, one slot should ALWAYS been taken by the blue PVP trinket, it's not worth sacrificing a full CC breaker every 2 minutes and 20 resilience for 40 crit or 80 AP.

[Thesentinel]

ive not whined once on this thread- imo i think that the game is abit of both- especially since TBC with the new resilience stat, and arena- i have never stepped foot into any pve raid apart from the first boss in gruul's lair once- and i like the pvp system

I agree Frosty

I am PvE - through and through - 1 boss into SSC and The Eye. But I've spent a bit of time playing Arena and PvP recently - and I think it takes as much skill and concentration as PvE (esp to get the S3 main hands and shoulders) and the rewards are excellent and tailored for PvP.

They are the best Stam gear sets in the game. And there is enough PvP content in the game now to keep us interested also - thanks Blizz

[Narzania]

I agree Frosty

I am PvE - through and through - 1 boss into SSC and The Eye. But I've spent a bit of time playing Arena and PvP recently - and I think it takes as much skill and concentration as PvE (esp to get the S3 main hands and shoulders) and the rewards are excellent and tailored for PvP.

They are the best Stam gear sets in the game. And there is enough PvP content in the game now to keep us interested also - thanks Blizz

Wished professions were a little more independant than entirelly based on PvE...

[Shadowclaimer]

ive not whined once on this thread- imo i think that the game is abit of both- especially since TBC with the new resilience stat, and arena- i have never stepped foot into any pve raid apart from the first boss in gruul's lair once- and i like the pvp system

The whining part wasn't referring to you, just a good chunk of PvPers in general who screw the PvEers over by whining for balance in PvP, which forces imbalance in PvE and it goes back and forth ><

That and a good 50% of PvPers don't even deserve their gear, most of them are just "10 games a week" players and I'm damn happy they implemented the required personal rating on gear, too bad it doesn't go on all.

[Narzania]

The whining part wasn't referring to you, just a good chunk of PvPers in general who screw the PvEers over by whining for balance in PvP, which forces imbalance in PvE and it goes back and forth ><

That and a good 50% of PvPers don't even deserve their gear, most of them are just "10 games a week" players and I'm damn happy they implemented the required personal rating on gear, too bad it doesn't go on all.

Come on dont be mean, they just do it so selling teams is avoided and team swapping is also avoided to some extent.

And I am also not whining. I am telling the truth. Arent PvE items better than PvP ones? Just to give you an example..Isnt Stormherald (which can be obtained ONLY by doing PvE) much better (not to mention other weapons who recently got their buffs) than any Merciless Gladiator weapons out there? Please be honest (and I even expect these weapon to get its buff sometime and be also close to S3 weapons, not to mention even better).

Stormherald is (which is a PvE obtained weapon), by far, the very best weapon for PvP.

[Shadowclaimer]

Not really anymore now that mace spec got nerfed

But Stormherald is also freaking insane to get, its not a "PvE" weapon as much as a "OMG 3 YEARS OF WORK TO FINALLY GET IT!" it ought to be that powerful.

I understand PvE gear being more powerful, and it should be, its harder to get compared to the welfare epics.

[Narzania]

Not really anymore now that mace spec got nerfed

But Stormherald is also freaking insane to get, its not a "PvE" weapon as much as a "OMG 3 YEARS OF WORK TO FINALLY GET IT!" it ought to be that powerful.

I understand PvE gear being more powerful, and it should be, its harder to get compared to the welfare epics.

How do you know mace spec will be nerfed so insanelly? It will get a minor nerf.

[Sulika]

Personally I think that arena is very rapidly killing PvE. Right now you can do a little arena for an hour a week and very rapidly gather a set of gear equal in quality to the tier 5 gear. If you want to get that from PvE you need to spend a couple of months on various guild runs to make progress, investing somewhere from 8 to 24 hours a week. For the effort required to attain it arena gear is incredibly powerful.

Right now starting a PvE guild is all but impossible because no matter what you need to spend ages farming tank gear. Most of the DPS could be arsed doing that because they already have as good or better than what drops from arena, very few warriors want to tank anymore because with all the tank gear in the world you are still cannon fodder for a green geared warlock while still slowly grinding your daily quests which you have to do every day to cover repair costs and consumables.

Believe it or not PvPers are not supposed to steamroll over PvE players and I find the complaints amusing and I think the idea that PvP gear should be an "i win" button vs PvE gear is one blizzard need to very firmly stomp on the head. By the time season 3 arena comes around there will be no way to start a PvE guild. Why should anyone bother with months of grind when they can get BT quality gear in a couple hours play a week and can do so while remaining PvP specced with all the advantages that conveys while out grinding?

As for the original posters "gurantee" that PvE players will get the best gear eventually, I levelled up on the Karazhan EU realm. I started this char late and by the time I reached lvl 70 there was a single guild that had downed Gruul and about 20 people walking around in full arena gear. Right now I am playing on my old realm Bloodfeather. There are far more people with full arena sets than there are people who have seen the inside of BT. I spent three months running Karazhan with a char in the past and never saw a single tier 4 token drop that I could use. The only way you can gurantee getting gear is to do PvP and Arena, for both those you can almost literally chart how long it will take to get whatever item you want, the PvE drops are now, and have always been totally random.

I never cease to find it amusing that many PvPers can about face so quickly, they will swear blind that rating requirements for arena gear is fine since skill beats gear and then turn around two minutes later and argue that the sky is falling due to some slightly better gear that is available to a very few in the top PvE guilds because suddenly skill no longer trumps gear. If your argument hinges on you deserving the arena gear because you are so skilled am I seriously supposed to feel sorry for you because your skill isn't up to dealing with a PvE player who has a 2 dps better weapon? Maybe you aren't really all that skilled if you are so terrified of losing your gear advantage.

[Shadowclaimer]

How do you know mace spec will be nerfed so insanelly? It will get a minor nerf.

The nerf is enough to make it on par with other tier 3 weapons though, meaning people won't just be using Stormherald anymore.

As for the extremely long rant, you've said everything I've believed and wanted to say for ages but couldn't put into words, well said in every possible aspect.

[Narzania]

I never cease to find it amusing that many PvPers can about face so quickly, they will swear blind that rating requirements for arena gear is fine since skill beats gear and then turn around two minutes later and argue that the sky is falling due to some slightly better gear that is available to a very few in the top PvE guilds because suddenly skill no longer trumps gear. If your argument hinges on you deserving the arena gear because you are so skilled am I seriously supposed to feel sorry for you because your skill isn't up to dealing with a PvE player who has a 2 dps better weapon? Maybe you aren't really all that skilled if you are so terrified of losing your gear advantage.

Well let me put it this way. Lets assume that winning in Arena is a faction of: a) Group composition; b) Skill and c) Gear.

Assume that Both PvE and PvP players have a and b equal. What would make a difference between losing or winning? This will be c. You get my point? In S2 what I observed is that the highest rated teams are mostly those coming form PvE guilds and dont tell me thats not true.

Lets see now that gear swapping is not allowed anymore (i.e. not more swapping into BT Shadow Resistance gear in Arena) how PvE teams will perform. But they will still be doing better, and Stormherald will continue being the very best PvP weapon even after the nerf.

By the way refering to the post above this one, I still believe that SH will be the best PvP weapon. Why? Cause if they nerf it PvP wise and make it at par with other weapons for PvP, wouldnt they have to boost it PvE wise to make it at par with other weapons for PvE? So its outperformance PvP wise has theoretically been compensated by an underperformance PvE wise and this will still be the case. So SH, a PvE obtainable weapon, will still remain the best but the gap will narrow.

So to conclude, assuming that a and b above are equal (and I have placed them in order of importance with a being the most important factor and c being the least but all 3 of them are significantly important) what will make the difference is those teams who have access to more diversity of gear and these are Arena teams from PvE guilds who have access to the very best Trinkets, rings and high end weapons (dont tell me that Twinblade of the Phoenix Sword can be obtainable by only an uber high end PvE guild- its still far better than Merciless Gladiator Sword especially after the buff).

And to end my point just tell me how easy is for a PvP geared player to find a guild and enjoy PvE content compared to a reverse (a PvE player entering an good arena team)? Just compare and be honest.

I have a lvl 70 warrior and it has been impossible for me.

[Sulika]

Well let me put it this way. Lets assume that winning in Arena is a faction of: a) Group composition; b) Skill and c) Gear.

Assume that Both PvE and PvP players have a and b equal. What would make a difference between losing or winning? This will be c. You get my point? In S2 what I observed is that the highest rated teams are mostly those coming form PvE guilds and dont tell me thats not true.

This is only an issue if you assume that the most successful PvE players are not also skilled PvP players. A very large part of skill is co-ordination and working together and nobody has that better than the high end PvE guilds. Spend 6 hours a day, 4 days a week healing a raid and tell me if that doesn't improve your timing and concentration to heal for a 5 minute arena fight. No arena team puts in that amount of practice. High end DPSers have their spell rotations down to a fine art. These teams also generally have, good connections, know each other and work together for a long time and also generally are more likely to use teamspeak or ventrillo efficiently and automatically. These are skills that for the most part PvPers have not had to develop up until now and since they are so vital to arena it is only natural that PvE players do very well because they have put massive amounts of time and effort into developing them.

It certainly makes more sense to me that these players do well because of the amounts of time they have available and the practice they have put into gearing themselves up and making PvE progress. I mean, you take the top 5 players from any top end PvE guild and I would expect them to do very well as an arena team. That is of course another big advantage of PvE players, they meet others and play with them. You get to know far more people doing PvE than you ever will doing arena and that makes it more likely you can gather 5 skilled people to work together. You cant just ignore all of that and claim the system is broken because some PvE players also do well at PvP.

Lets see now that gear swapping is not allowed anymore (i.e. not more swapping into BT Shadow Resistance gear in Arena) how PvE teams will perform. But they will still be doing better, and Stormherald will continue being the very best PvP weapon even after the nerf.

Stormherald is the only really notable example though. And even then the difference is gaining about 20 damage on your Mortal Strike vs losing about 0.8% resillience and 1% chance to hit (comparing to the bonegrinder). I would say that if that tiny boost is going to be the difference between winning and losing then there isn't much of a skill difference between the two teams to begin with. Certainly gear is an advantage, but it plays out mostly in the early stages of the season. The same cuts both ways though, many arena weapons are far better than those you can get through PvE, to cite the most ridiculous example the Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall is the best tanking shield until you get to BT/Hyjal. Should the arena gear be nerfed because it is better than the PvE gear? Of course not, some arena items should be best, some PvE items should be best. That way lies balance.

By the way refering to the post above this one, I still believe that SH will be the best PvP weapon. Why? Cause if they nerf it PvP wise and make it at par with other weapons for PvP, wouldnt they have to boost it PvE wise to make it at par with other weapons for PvE? So its outperformance PvP wise has theoretically been compensated by an underperformance PvE wise and this will still be the case. So SH, a PvE obtainable weapon, will still remain the best but the gap will narrow.

The mace spec change will kill Stormherald (I think). It is already debatable whether or not sword spec is better, and either way, once season 3 comes out stormherald wont even be competitive for top end DPS anymore (unless of course they add another upgrade path for it).

So to conclude, assuming that a and b above are equal (and I have placed them in order of importance with a being the most important factor and c being the least but all 3 of them are significantly important) what will make the difference is those teams who have access to more diversity of gear and these are Arena teams from PvE guilds who have access to the very best Trinkets, rings and high end weapons (dont tell me that Twinblade of the Phoenix Sword can be obtainable by only an uber high end PvE guild- its still far better than Merciless Gladiator Sword especially after the buff).

Again, I believe you are overstating how common it is. I don't recall seeing anyone running around with it on Bloodfeather alliance side though there probably are one or two out there though. Either way I believe blizzard are comfortable with having some of the PvE gear be better than the PvP gear. Neither part of the game exists in isolation and I believe they are happy to see the people who are successful at both aspects being most successful overall. There was a post by one of the blizzard people about the rating requirement for the season 3 gear where he said (to paraphrase) "if that extra 10 dps on the warriors sword makes so much difference that you are going to lose then you weren't as skillful as you like to think".

And to end my point just tell me how easy is for a PvP geared player to find a guild and enjoy PvE content compared to a reverse (a PvE player entering an good arena team)? Just compare and be honest.

I have a lvl 70 warrior and it has been impossible for me.

I will ask you the question I expect you hear a lot - "Are you willing to respec prot?". Considering I spent a few days last week trying to find warriors for a PvE guild and finding that nearly every single one of them wanted to be DPS you are going to have a hard time convincing me of that. The problem for warriors is the old gear dependent catch 22, only way to get good gear is to have good gear. To be honest having started this char late in the game I have given up on getting into an Arena team until i can farm the Season 1 stuff from BGs. You make it sound like anyone can just jump into a BT guild once they have a couple of lvl 70 blues. You can get a crappy PvE guild just as easily as you can get a crappy arena team. If you want to get into a TK/SSC guild expect to put in your time farming Kara, if you want to get into a BT/Hyjal guild, expect to put in your time farming TK/SSC.

I know on my own server there are even the occasional Kara pugs these days so it is not by any means difficult. On low population realms however that could be so.

[Narzania]

The mace spec change will kill Stormherald (I think). It is already debatable whether or not sword spec is better, and either way, once season 3 comes out stormherald wont even be competitive for top end DPS anymore (unless of course they add another upgrade path for it).

All is very well written and explained But regarding SH I really dont think Mace spec will kill it. Mace spec may "kill" Maces who only rely on talent proc not Chance to hit proc. But do you have any information that says the nerf will be significant? I only read a post that mentions that mace spec will be nerfed by 1% less chance to proc.

Isn't what u say "It is already debatable whether or not sword spec is better" contradictory to your statement that mace spec will die given the fact that Blizz intends to make the specs balanced? Therefore, even if "It is already debatable whether or not sword spec is better " the "balancing" of specs will imply a minor nerf to the mace and by "killing" mace spec as u say will imply a huge imbalance in favor of Sword spec.

Dont forget that SH has, as far as I remember, 579 top end dmg whereas Merciless ones have 549. Do you realy think S3 ones will have far more dmg than SH considering weapon upgrades from S1 to S2?

I expect if SH is far better (which by no doubt is) than S2 weapons, that S3 weapons will be at par or even slightly better than SH making SH very competitive even during S3 considering no further buff on BS weapons.

[Sulika]

All is very well written and explained But regarding SH I really dont think Mace spec will kill it. Mace spec may "kill" Maces who only rely on talent proc not Chance to hit proc. But do you have any information that says the nerf will be significant? I only read a post that mentions that mace spec will be nerfed by 1% less chance to proc.

Isn't what u say "It is already debatable whether or not sword spec is better" contradictory to your statement that mace spec will die given the fact that Blizz intends to make the specs balanced? Therefore, even if "It is already debatable whether or not sword spec is better " the "balancing" of specs will imply a minor nerf to the mace and by "killing" mace spec as u say will imply a huge imbalance in favor of Sword spec.

Dont forget that SH has, as far as I remember, 579 top end dmg whereas Merciless ones have 549. Do you realy think S3 ones will have far more dmg than SH considering weapon upgrades from S1 to S2?

I expect if SH is far better (which by no doubt is) than S2 weapons, that S3 weapons will be at par or even slightly better than SH making SH very competitive even during S3 considering no further buff on BS weapons.

It isn't really contradictory. I think the progression of the gear has already naturally lowered the worth of mace spec to the point where it is no longer the superior spec and a mace spec nerf will only amplify that and make a lot of people who are still using Stormherald realise it. As for the on hit proc for Stormherald it was already very rare so the majority of the procs were already coming from Mace Spec.

Going from S1 to S2 blizz added 36 max damage to the 2 handers, presumably S3 will be a similar jump over season 2 in which case they would have higher max than Stormherald while also having a faster attack speed, a win-win situation for DPS. Of course that is all only guesswork since we haven't seen stats on any of those items yet.

[Narzania]

It isn't really contradictory. I think the progression of the gear has already naturally lowered the worth of mace spec to the point where it is no longer the superior spec and a mace spec nerf will only amplify that and make a lot of people who are still using Stormherald realise it. As for the on hit proc for Stormherald it was already very rare so the majority of the procs were already coming from Mace Spec.

Going from S1 to S2 blizz added 36 max damage to the 2 handers, presumably S3 will be a similar jump over season 2 in which case they would have higher max than Stormherald while also having a faster attack speed, a win-win situation for DPS. Of course that is all only guesswork since we haven't seen stats on any of those items yet.

If we consider that S3 weapons end up with 585 dmg at 3,6 speed vs SH with 579 dmg and 3.8 Speed again SH dmg per swing will be higher due to its slow speed.

I believe that SH will end just as DT is now during S2.

Go check the weapon of the warrior "inactive" in C A P S L O C K C R E W team. He has DT yet really good rating which probably makes him one of the very best warriors around (but he is an exception though). Therefore, I still believe that SH will be highly competitive during S3 and marginally, if at all, worse than S3 weapons.