Again PvE items getting close to being better than PvP for PvP

[Shadowclaimer]

Arenas is 90% Class Composition, 9% Gear, 1% Skill

PvE is 40% Class Composition, 40% gear, 20% skill (People have to work together rather then just, TRAVEL FORM RUN DRINK LAWL KITE)

At least thats the way I see it, I play a hardcore PvP char (Hunter) and 2 hardcore PvE chars (Mage/Tankadin)

For so simple programmed events, you are necessarily calling yourself dumb seeing as you lack full tier 6 and phat perplz from BT =/

PvP may be unpredictable, but it doesn't mean its harder.

[Narzania]

Arenas is 90% Class Composition, 9% Gear, 1% Skill

PvE is 40% Class Composition, 40% gear, 20% skill (People have to work together rather then just, TRAVEL FORM RUN DRINK LAWL KITE)

At least thats the way I see it, I play a hardcore PvP char (Hunter) and 2 hardcore PvE chars (Mage/Tankadin)

For so simple programmed events, you are necessarily calling yourself dumb seeing as you lack full tier 6 and phat perplz from BT =/

PvP may be unpredictable, but it doesn't mean its harder.

you really do believe its 1% skill? I would say Composition-Skill-gear but 1% is waaay too low

[Angarr]

PvE is not simply about the bosses, the events, the learning, the gold, the wiping. It is fundamentally about team work. It is about being able to rely on the raiders to show up prepared, play with the right attitude, and play to win.

Just the same, Arena PvP is not simply about the researching the environment, developing strategies, building synergistic groups, or having the skill. It is most fundamentally about finding reliable players to play with who will work well together and always do their best.

The difference between the 2 is not so different. They both require comparable amounts of self-awareness, understanding, quick thinking, and all the other things that you might call "skill". The "which game is harder" pissing contest on this thread is not going anywhere, because both sides of the argument always have counterparts. Running circles around poles isn't that different from avoiding Void Reaver's orbs. It requires knowing where things are and adjusting accordingly.

The importance here is understanding that it requires 20 more people to raid successfully than it does to do arenas. The difference is the sheer number of people you're working with in the 2 categories.

Arena teams don't have their own personal websites, but raiding guilds do. Why is that?

Arena teams usually don't have forums or message boards for themselves, but raiding guilds do. Why is that?

Look -- Everything in this game is simply about time investment. The skill that most people allude to exists, but all it really does is help you get arena gear faster. But everyone is still going to get what they're working for. Much the same with PvE. The boss fights are foregone conclusions. If you bang your head into them enough times, eventually everything clicks into place and it works.

The fundamental challege of any MMOG is simply using your time wisely.

It's doing dailies instead of flying circles around Shattrath. It's making sure that you don't miss the nights that your arena team plays so that the team actually gets to play! It's making sure that the fewest number of people miss raid nights so that your raiding guild has the highest chance of success!

And it is simply easier for 5 people to manage their time properly, or to be coordinated for maximum efficiency, than it is for 25 people to manage their time properly.

Guilds have websites and forums, because it allows the officers to coordinate their members in a more formal and standardized way. It does not work as well to just spread the word that there is a raid on Thursday night by the Guild message of the day. However, members of arena teams can single handedly contact each and every one of their members relatively efficiently to see if they can play on a given Wednesday.

What you all need to recognize, and the reason people say that PvE is more challenging, is because it simply is more difficult to get 25 of the right people in Serpentshrine Cavern for 4 hours than it is to get 5 people queuing for arenas in Shattrath for as many hours as they feel like playing

That is why PvE'ers deserve the best. And that is why PvP'ers are going to continue to be seen as less impressive.

-Angarr
www.theturksguild.net

[Felix]

PvE is not simply about the bosses, the events, the learning, the gold, the wiping. It is fundamentally about team work. It is about being able to rely on the raiders to show up prepared, play with the right attitude, and play to win.

Just the same, Arena PvP is not simply about the researching the environment, developing strategies, building synergistic groups, or having the skill. It is most fundamentally about finding reliable players to play with who will work well together and always do their best.

The difference between the 2 is not so different. They both require comparable amounts of self-awareness, understanding, quick thinking, and all the other things that you might call "skill". The "which game is harder" pissing contest on this thread is not going anywhere, because both sides of the argument always have counterparts. Running circles around poles isn't that different from avoiding Void Reaver's orbs. It requires knowing where things are and adjusting accordingly.

The importance here is understanding that it requires 20 more people to raid successfully than it does to do arenas. The difference is the sheer number of people you're working with in the 2 categories.

Arena teams don't have their own personal websites, but raiding guilds do. Why is that?

Arena teams usually don't have forums or message boards for themselves, but raiding guilds do. Why is that?

Look -- Everything in this game is simply about time investment. The skill that most people allude to exists, but all it really does is help you get arena gear faster. But everyone is still going to get what they're working for. Much the same with PvE. The boss fights are foregone conclusions. If you bang your head into them enough times, eventually everything clicks into place and it works.

The fundamental challege of any MMOG is simply using your time wisely.

It's doing dailies instead of flying circles around Shattrath. It's making sure that you don't miss the nights that your arena team plays so that the team actually gets to play! It's making sure that the fewest number of people miss raid nights so that your raiding guild has the highest chance of success!

And it is simply easier for 5 people to manage their time properly, or to be coordinated for maximum efficiency, than it is for 25 people to manage their time properly.

Guilds have websites and forums, because it allows the officers to coordinate their members in a more formal and standardized way. It does not work as well to just spread the word that there is a raid on Thursday night by the Guild message of the day. However, members of arena teams can single handedly contact each and every one of their members relatively efficiently to see if they can play on a given Wednesday.

What you all need to recognize, and the reason people say that PvE is more challenging, is because it simply is more difficult to get 25 of the right people in Serpentshrine Cavern for 4 hours than it is to get 5 people queuing for arenas in Shattrath for as many hours as they feel like playing

That is why PvE'ers deserve the best. And that is why PvP'ers are going to continue to be seen as less impressive.

-Angarr
www.theturksguild.net

I totally agree with the above post --PvE is about team management and coordination 1 point missing though that in PvP You fight real ppl who are as intelligent as you are and you need uber co-orrdination fast reflexes and swift way of thinking and last, you are never, never guaranteed a 2k rating even if u do arenas 24/7 for a year...

[Angarr]

Eh, I'd be inclined to say that you were right if I actually felt like people thought fast, but I really don't think it requires more coordination than say....reacting to a Doomfire or reacting to an unlucky gaze on Phase 3 of Kael.

The whole idea of "skill" and "what is harder" is pretty much a dead point when comparing PvP and PvE. Both have things that take some time to learn to accomplish well.

Further, you're right. A 2000 Rating is not a Foregone conclusion, but if you bleed points 10 times a week you still get arena points, and you still get the same gear. You just don't get it as soon as the better players. That's what I mean by PvP being a game of time-invested.

[flammable]

PvP easy epics. PvE hard epics. I see someone in full S2 PvP gear, I really do not have much respect. I see someone in full T6, I do have respect.

[Threat]

PvP in 2,2k+ rating is HARDER then BT\Hyjal raids. Yes, i`ve tryed it both, thank you.
Average top PvE guild carebear cant do shit in PvP, but give almost any top PvPer good clear tactic - and he will be alright at any boss.

[demise]

PvP in 2,2k+ rating is HARDER then BT\Hyjal raids. Yes, i`ve tryed it both, thank you.
Average top PvE guild carebear cant do shit in PvP, but give almost any top PvPer good clear tactic - and he will be alright at any boss.

agreed !

[Angarr]

PvP in 2,2k+ rating is HARDER then BT\Hyjal raids. Yes, i`ve tryed it both, thank you.
Average top PvE guild carebear cant do shit in PvP, but give almost any top PvPer good clear tactic - and he will be alright at any boss.

Compare the challenge:

Starting a Guild from scratch and getting through all content up to killing Illidan

Versus.

Starting an Arena team and getting it to 2,200 rating.

Which is more challenging and which should yield better rewards?

It is inarguable that PvP is for people who simply don't have the patience, time, or commitment to follow through, but still want to feel some sort of accomplishment at the end of the night.

I would imagine that most people see PvE as this:

-Gather gear
-Apply to a Raid Guild
-Learn The Fights
-Show up and Prosper

And for many players, that's all of the challenge they'll have to see.

But the real challenge of PvE is what happens before a guild even has an application page for someone to apply to.

Laying the foundation for a raiding guild is one of the most difficult and trying things that takes place in World of Warcraft.

PvP is fun, but it takes less time and requires dealing with fewer people, and is hence less challenging. Sure, maybe the few hours you have to spend a week is more challenging, because of strong, competitive players, but
what's necessary to organize and put 25 people in Black Temple makes the trials and tribulations of PvP (where you don't even take repair bills) basically negligible.

[Phrawst]

Compare the challenge:

Starting a Guild from scratch and getting through all content up to killing Illidan

Versus.

Starting an Arena team and getting it to 2,200 rating.

Which is more challenging and which should yield better rewards?

It is inarguable that PvP is for people who simply don't have the patience, time, or commitment to follow through, but still want to feel some sort of accomplishment at the end of the night.

I would imagine that most people see PvE as this:

-Gather gear
-Apply to a Raid Guild
-Learn The Fights
-Show up and Prosper

And for many players, that's all of the challenge they'll have to see.

But the real challenge of PvE is what happens before a guild even has an application page for someone to apply to.

Laying the foundation for a raiding guild is one of the most difficult and trying things that takes place in World of Warcraft.

PvP is fun, but it takes less time and requires dealing with fewer people, and is hence less challenging. Sure, maybe the few hours you have to spend a week is more challenging, because of strong, competitive players, but
what's necessary to organize and put 25 people in Black Temple makes the trials and tribulations of PvP (where you don't even take repair bills) basically negligible.

Posts like this annoy me because they equate the time investment of gathering 25 competent people as a "challenge". It is annoying and can take a long time to do but by no means should you use it as an argument to say that PvE is more challenging than PvP.

Starting a guild, getting geared, and beating content could be considered more grunt work but it is hardly a challenge, its simply what you must do to beat the end game content, which is what the discussion is about.

Is beating the end game raid boss harder than fighting your way to an extremely high arena rank? Short answer no.

Proof of this? They don't give out cash rewards to the first guild to beat content in WoW. Yet there's tournaments with prizes and cash for the best of the best arena teams.

Why is that? Because PvE should be called PvCSE, Player vs. Computer Scripted Enemy. Which does the same thing... every time.

In arena you get about 10 seconds to size up the other team and come up with a strat and start executing it.. or you lose.

In PvE you get to wipe and retry till you get it right.

I've done both, much respect to people who raid and love it and beat the hard content. But it is by no means more challenging than arena.

Great PvP'ers can walk into any raid be told what to do and odds are they'll get it done and do it right on the first or second try. You take a hardcore PvE'er and put them in a PvP situation and you and I both know they're going to fail miserably.

[rackornar]

Posts like this annoy me because they equate the time investment of gathering 25 competent people as a "challenge". It is annoying and can take a long time to do but by no means should you use it as an argument to say that PvE is more challenging than PvP.

Starting a guild, getting geared, and beating content could be considered more grunt work but it is hardly a challenge, its simply what you must do to beat the end game content, which is what the discussion is about.

Is beating the end game raid boss harder than fighting your way to an extremely high arena rank? Short answer no.

Proof of this? They don't give out cash rewards to the first guild to beat content in WoW. Yet there's tournaments with prizes and cash for the best of the best arena teams.

Why is that? Because PvE should be called PvCSE, Player vs. Computer Scripted Enemy. Which does the same thing... every time.

In arena you get about 10 seconds to size up the other team and come up with a strat and start executing it.. or you lose.

In PvE you get to wipe and retry till you get it right.

I've done both, much respect to people who raid and love it and beat the hard content. But it is by no means more challenging than arena.

Great PvP'ers can walk into any raid be told what to do and odds are they'll get it done and do it right on the first or second try. You take a hardcore PvE'er and put them in a PvP situation and you and I both know they're going to fail miserably.

LoL at PvP being tougher. And go check around PvE guilds do get payed to beat that content first, its known as sponsors and they are out there. I will give you a 10/10 for effort, just a 4/10 for research though.

[Cutthroat]

I think your getting completely off point here. From your reasoning, doing arena some hours a week that requires alot of skill in the higher rated teams is more challenging than doing high end pve'ing which requires, yes you have guessed it, skill, believe it or not for tens of hours a week, hundreds of gold in repairs/consumables and months of work getting through all of the content in the game.

Yes, high end arena teams can be more challenging in the sense of the skill required to beat them due to the fact its a person behind the teams and not a fixed script like pve encounters. Skill required isnt the only component in making anything challenging. Starting in a guild from scratch and spending months getting to high end encounters, all the time grinding, grinding, grinding to upgrade your gear, pay for consumables is a challenge in its own and requires alot of hard work. Been poor and having a plan set and to stick by it to be a millionaire, getting there is a challenge is it not?.

I think what your forgetting is the amount of time it took to get to end game content for alot of pve' ers versus making an arena team and jumping right in. You can compare high end arena to end game pve but you have no right to call it any less challenging than the arena when you factor in the time and hard work PVE requires.

With that said, there are many variables which can single any one person out as a great pvper or pver, this doesnt mean the two are completely different. Each play style required practice. Yes a pver can suck at pvp, put a good pvper in a raiding guild and they will more than likely do well. Does this mean that if you put any High end pver in the arena they will suck? no, High end pve isnt so much different to high end arena to say that when it comes down to skill. High end arena requires sharper skills, thinking on the move, quick thinking, team work, doesnt mean pvers dont posses this level of skill. Over months of practice with team work, working out tactics and applying them, High end pvers can find it easy to translate these skills into the arena and do well. People can be good at two things, A good pver can be a great pvper and vice versa.

Alot of high end pvers started out pvping and continued pvping in their spare time, more than enough to become great pvpers. I started out pvping nonstop in the old Rank system until i reached GM and then moved onto pve clearing the content TBC before going casual. Some Peoples narrow mindedness on the difference between the two is extremely unbalanced.

I'm not biased towards either as i am a bit of both, but it makes me cringe to see both sides fight over who deserves what when both required alot of practice and time to become good at, doesn't mean each has to be quarantined to his own side or one is better/more challenging than the other.

[Felix]

Eh, I'd be inclined to say that you were right if I actually felt like people thought fast, but I really don't think it requires more coordination than say....reacting to a Doomfire or reacting to an unlucky gaze on Phase 3 of Kael.

The whole idea of "skill" and "what is harder" is pretty much a dead point when comparing PvP and PvE. Both have things that take some time to learn to accomplish well.

Further, you're right. A 2000 Rating is not a Foregone conclusion, but if you bleed points 10 times a week you still get arena points, and you still get the same gear. You just don't get it as soon as the better players. That's what I mean by PvP being a game of time-invested.

No in S3 you willl need 1850 for weapon and 2k for shoulders.

[Kramgonudist]

Saying that people that are good at PvE suck at PvP is silly.

I'm in a guild that just killed RoS in BT and are currently gathering hearts for Mother Shazzra we are ranked the third best horde guild on our server and while keeping this high standard I'm also able to pvp some. I'm in a 5on5 team with 2237 raiting currently and while it wasnt so easy to get there it doesnt even compare to how hard it was to kill RoS. My arena team and I play 10-20 games a week depending on how it goes..

Nihilum and Curse are some of the more well known horde guilds in the western world. They both have arena teams and guess what. Their teams are ranked in the top 5 of their Battlegroup. This cant just be a coincidence. When you PvE you learn everything you need to learn to Pvp. You learn how to use LoS, keep a eye out for people getting killed, learn what spell does what and most of all you learn how to run when you wipe.

The S3 gear is also way too good. I play a paladin and I have some T6 but with the 2.3 patch I'll stop using the T6 gloves and switch to the S3 ones becouse they have 17% more mana regen at the cost of 9 healing..

The Arena gear should never ever be better then the high end PvE content. It shouldnt even come close....

[Felix]

Saying that people that are good at PvE suck at PvP is silly.

I'm in a guild that just killed RoS in BT and are currently gathering hearts for Mother Shazzra we are ranked the third best horde guild on our server and while keeping this high standard I'm also able to pvp some. I'm in a 5on5 team with 2237 raiting currently and while it wasnt so easy to get there it doesnt even compare to how hard it was to kill RoS. My arena team and I play 10-20 games a week depending on how it goes..

Nihilum and Curse are some of the more well known horde guilds in the western world. They both have arena teams and guess what. Their teams are ranked in the top 5 of their Battlegroup.

Which comes to justify the post above that PvE items getting close to being better than PvP ones for PvP at least for this season. This especially pertains to weapons. PvE coordination helps I must admit but some weapons during this season are waay too good compared to Arena ones and good guilds take advantage of it. And as far as S3 weapons are concerned, well lets wait and see when SP is up..

Oh and I forgot, go back to page 10 and check this out:

"- damage output potential (10 of 16 are from PvE):

1. Torch of the Damned – 104.54 (PVE)
2. Stormherald – 103.9 (PVE)
3. Vengeful Gladiator’s Bonegrinder – 103.44 (PVP)
4. World Breaker – 100.96 (PVE)
5. Deep Thunder – 100 (PVE)
6. Cataclysm’s Edge – 99.82 (PvE)
7. Soul Cleaver – 99.81 (PvE)
etc, etc"

[Iosif]

Pff, I'm top ranked PvP player, yet I do PvE, but I hate it, I expirienced only up to SSC/TK, and it's boring as hell.

Hydros -> grab the add, tank it, repeat 5-6 times
Lurker -> wtf? is this a boss or a tresh mob rewarding free epix
Tidewalker -> stand behind, do dps, spam piercing howl
Karatress -> not to chelleging fight.. boring as hell, tank the priest add, and shield bash his healing cast, wich wasn't a problem, having already expirience in PvP where you should react fast.
Vaishj -> dps boss, do not kill raid with static charge, dps naga, dps boss
Leo -> chaleging fight, I liked it.

Yes.. verry hard bosses, easy as cake, and rewards are on the same lvl as the arena gear.

Tk
A'lar -> interesting fight, nothing challeging
Lootriver - > ....
Solarian -> .... crap boss
Kel'thalas -> haven't been yet, was playing arena.


Karazhan? LOL, took my 5v5 team, and some friends, and made our first random raid there. Haven't noticed any challenge.

I was getting more adrenalin from fighting at 2300 rating vs 2300 5v5 teams, rather then doing easy job in raid and getting for this easy epix.

You can pick apart anything all way down to it's most basic components and make it sound so trivial including PvP. Fact remains you need the proper raid composition with proper gear and SPEC. But the major difference is that your PvP Weapons are used on targets with 10-12k hp, My PvE weapon is used on a target with 900k+ so my Weapons should have more dmg output then yours .. should be lower to a degree so that you would not be "overwhelmed" by people in PvE Weps but your weps should not out preform mine. What are you going to say when Sunwell comes out and I start picking up my 151+ Epics or a score my Legendary bow? are you going to claim you need a Legendary PvP Weapon to combat me? Blizzard See's this and is making PvP Weps lag behind and your going to see them lag behind even more in the future.

[Felix]

You can pick apart anything all way down to it's most basic components and make it sound so trivial including PvP. Fact remains you need the proper raid composition with proper gear and SPEC. But the major difference is that your PvP Weapons are used on targets with 10-12k hp, My PvE weapon is used on a target with 900k+ so my Weapons should have more dmg output then yours .. should be lower to a degree so that you would not be "overwhelmed" by people in PvE Weps but your weps should not out preform mine. What are you going to say when Sunwell comes out and I start picking up my 151+ Epics or a score my Legendary bow? are you going to claim you need a Legendary PvP Weapon to combat me? Blizzard See's this and is making PvP Weps lag behind and your going to see them lag behind even more in the future.

Well Mace spec is not considered to be as PvE "friendly" as Sword or Axe. Am I right or not?

Well check this then:

1. Torch of the Damned – 104.54 (PVE)
2. Stormherald – 103.9 (PVE)
3. Vengeful Gladiator’s Bonegrinder – 103.44 (PVP)
4. World Breaker – 100.96 (PVE)

3 out of 4 top weapons are Maces aquired through PvE!! Isnt it an irony?

[Phrawst]

Saying that people that are good at PvE suck at PvP is silly.

I'm in a guild that just killed RoS in BT and are currently gathering hearts for Mother Shazzra we are ranked the third best horde guild on our server and while keeping this high standard I'm also able to pvp some. I'm in a 5on5 team with 2237 raiting currently and while it wasnt so easy to get there it doesnt even compare to how hard it was to kill RoS. My arena team and I play 10-20 games a week depending on how it goes..

Nihilum and Curse are some of the more well known horde guilds in the western world. They both have arena teams and guess what. Their teams are ranked in the top 5 of their Battlegroup. This cant just be a coincidence. When you PvE you learn everything you need to learn to Pvp. You learn how to use LoS, keep a eye out for people getting killed, learn what spell does what and most of all you learn how to run when you wipe.

The S3 gear is also way too good. I play a paladin and I have some T6 but with the 2.3 patch I'll stop using the T6 gloves and switch to the S3 ones becouse they have 17% more mana regen at the cost of 9 healing..

The Arena gear should never ever be better then the high end PvE content. It shouldnt even come close....

How can you honestly say that fighting a computer scripted enemy that does the same thing every time is harder than fighting real live human beings.

Thats just STUPID.

You can't count the time you spend finding the people for your guild/raid or farming consumables. That has nothing to do with the in the moment challenge. PvP'ers have to farm the mats for their enchants, and waste time grinding honor just like you waste time farming mats for pots. However I don't count that grinding time as part of the "challenge" of PvP/arena.

Besides the fact that there are guides upon guides upon guides for every boss fight in the game online for people to look up, and kill shot videos.

Yes theres guides for pvp and arena as well. Videos too. Problem is that the team you face isn't going to do the same thing as the team in the guides/videos so that makes them alot less valuable.

The fact that the highest end raiding guilds have really great arena teams MAKES SENSE. They're great players so no doubt they excel at all aspects of the game. But the PvP -> PvE skill ratio falls off pretty quick. I've pvp'ed back in the day with people who were some of the best raiders in my guild and they FAILED miserably.

Dungeons NEVER change, it doesn't take too much time to figure out how to top the DPS charts or own effective healing.

So forget about the time farming pots, or recruiting new players and gearing them up. Or finding new teammates and spending an ENTIRE season teaching them to PvP and bankign their honor and arena points so they can be geared for the next season (Because if you're trying to break a new character into arena thats the price you pay, an entire season of sucking bawlz to bank points)

Forget about all of that, because thats just the grind you have to do to participate in the PvE/PvP content.

The "in the moment" challenge is what counts. And "We've done this boss fight 100 times I'm gonna go afk till phase 2 because I dont' really do anything in phase 1" is ALOT EASIER than 5v5 game starts, you have 10 seconds to get your team organized and execute.

Seriously saying a computer scripted event is harder than playing a human being has to be the dumbest argument ever, and too many butt hurt raiders say it because they want to look the "coolest" in their "gear" in the "virtual online world". If you're that worried about your status in an online video game you should probably quit playing and worry about your status IRL.

[flammable]

PvP items are too good compared to PvE items, not the other way around. Very few people I imagine will still do Karazhan from next patch, because equal PvP items will be gotten from honor.

Lets take the "skill" arguement out of it. I don't particularly see how PvP or PvE involves much skill. Much of it comes from gear, experience and practice. In reality, that is how most people are 'good' at something, they have just had plenty of experience of it. Your not naturally gifted because you have a high arena team or are in a good guild, your simply spend a lot of time at it.

At the end of the day... PvP, you save up your points, you know you will get the item. With PvE, it takes much longer to get the items and you have to be lucky with the drop rates.

To get the best PvE gear, you have to spend hours each day. With PvP, you play your 10 games.

In my opinion, the arena points should be seriously nerfed. Perhaps by 75%. Only the very very best should be in full arena gear.

[Phrawst]

Just because PvP is less of a time sink than PvE doesn't mean its "easier".

We're not talking about the time investment we're talking about the challenge.

Is killing the computer controlled mob harder or is fighting the arena team of human beings harder. Not a very difficult question.

Because of that I think the system is fine. PvE is EASIER but takes more time, PvP is HARDER and if you're good at it can take less time.

What about all the arena teams that suck, and the majority of them do. They can spend just as much time as you do raiding and gain no ground on their arena team and be stuck at a low rating getting crappy pts every week.

As for random drops, thats the way pve is.. if you don't like it then don't do it. But it doesn't give you a right to whine and moan about pvp.