Enrage and Blood Craze..

[Narzania]

I have tested them and it appears that Blood Craze (generates 3% of Health over 6 secs) and Enrage cannot proc together. Shouldnt it be fixed cause otherwise Blood Craze is a completelly useless talent then. They fixed DW + Enrage not being able to work together but nothing about Enrage and BC.

[Lesane]

No. When you have resilience there's a small chance for normal hits to proc one of your "procs on taking crit" talents/spells. The chance is applied to the spells/talents individually so proccing one doesn't mean you automatically get the other but it IS possible. And deathwish still doesn't work together with enrage and that is working as intended, if you have enrage running deathwish does nothing aside from increasing your damage taken and giving fear immunity.

[frosty]

enrage and bloodcraze do work together im sure of it, ive had both talents on my warrior for quite some time now and i like bloodcraze much better than 3 points in commanding presence like most warriors, when second wind and bloodcraze are both active i almost outheal rogues damage...

[Narzania]

No. When you have resilience there's a small chance for normal hits to proc one of your "procs on taking crit" talents/spells. The chance is applied to the spells/talents individually so proccing one doesn't mean you automatically get the other but it IS possible. And deathwish still doesn't work together with enrage and that is working as intended, if you have enrage running deathwish does nothing aside from increasing your damage taken and giving fear immunity.

I mean either Enrage alone or BC alone proc. But not both. I have tested it on combat log and it appears to be a bug or something. Normally if u get critted, both enrage and BC should proc but it doesnt happen meaning that BC is crap.

[Odindusk]

I mean either Enrage alone or BC alone proc. But not both. I have tested it on combat log and it appears to be a bug or something. Normally if u get critted, both enrage and BC should proc but it doesnt happen meaning that BC is crap.

You're not reading your combat log properly. As explained to me:

The times when you see one or the other go off, are times when you're not being crit. Those are times when you WOULD have been crit but resilience negated it. In those situations, abilities like Blood Craze and Enrage don't ALWAYS proc, and that's intentional, per Blizzard.

When you are actually crit, BC and Enrage have a 100% proc rate.

[Narzania]

You're not reading your combat log properly. As explained to me:

The times when you see one or the other go off, are times when you're not being crit. Those are times when you WOULD have been crit but resilience negated it. In those situations, abilities like Blood Craze and Enrage don't ALWAYS proc, and that's intentional, per Blizzard.

When you are actually crit, BC and Enrage have a 100% proc rate.

Where did you read that? Is there any blue post mentioning it?

[borbes]

When they are proc'ing alone they are procing on NON-CRIT's. When you get crit, both will proc. When you have resilience, it gives you a chance to proc them on normal hits. This is so that resilience does not hurt your chances for these to proc. It's a good thing.

[Stenhord]

imo, if resilience blocks a crit it should be counted as a crit vs the talents and proc both just like a normal crit does. but if what Narzania says is correct it sounds like a bug too me, its not a bonus that a resilience reduced crit does only proc one of them when it should proc both like everyone elses talents does. way too nerf warriors, gg

[jinn]

imo, if resilience blocks a crit it should be counted as a crit vs the talents and proc both just like a normal crit does. but if what Narzania says is correct it sounds like a bug too me, its not a bonus that a resilience reduced crit does only proc one of them when it should proc both like everyone elses talents does. way too nerf warriors, gg

Stop saying nonsense... It procs on crit, u manage to avoid it by stats like resilience (and, why not, like def), u did not take the damage, so u don't have your proc (read your talent). If u take a crit, it procs 100%, even if resilience manages to reduce the damage. "Way to nerf warriors", u piss me off....

[Stenhord]

Stop saying nonsense... It procs on crit, u manage to avoid it by stats like resilience (and, why not, like def), u did not take the damage, so u don't have your proc (read your talent). If u take a crit, it procs 100%, even if resilience manages to reduce the damage. "Way to nerf warriors", u piss me off....

ofc it alwats procs on crits, but it SHOULD also proc when you "dodge" a crit with help of resilience (or defense even). l2read blues, i dont have a link for it now but it is stated that both enrage and blood craze should proc when you avoid a crit with help of resilience and as Narzania said it does not do that i.e its bugged and warriors are nerfed.

[Calminaion]

When they are proc'ing alone they are procing on NON-CRIT's. When you get crit, both will proc. When you have resilience, it gives you a chance to proc them on normal hits. This is so that resilience does not hurt your chances for these to proc. It's a good thing.

People, what Borbes says here is correct. If you get crit you get the proc (off both). If you have resilience, then the percentage that your resilience reduces the chance to get crit, becomes a percentage that "chance on being crit" abilities can proc of a non-crit.

Apparently, they tried to code having your "On crit" abilities still proc if resilience negated the crit, but that became far too intensive.

When someone swings at you, let's assume that the only things that could be done is a 90% hit, 10% crit. You stack 1% crit reduction via resilience, so that changes the swing table to 91% hit, 9% crit. Now you want that 1% that moved from crit to hit to still be a crit ... but not really crit - you're adding an extra parameter into the swing table ... for that reason, "On crit" abilities will not have a 1% (your resilience) chance to proc on any non-crit swing. All it does is make the swing table a lot less cluttered.

So what was happening in the OP's case, was that his resilience was such that Enrage proc'd off a non-crit due to resilienc, but Blood thirst did not. Not a bug, just a side effect of the coded swing mechanics.

And yes, I DO recall reading about this (On-crit abilities proccing of non-crits due to resilience) via a blue post ... it WAS a while back, but I'll see if I can find it.

[Calminaion]

ofc it alwats procs on crits, but it SHOULD also proc when you "dodge" a crit with help of resilience (or defense even). l2read blues, i dont have a link for it now but it is stated that both enrage and blood craze should proc when you avoid a crit with help of resilience and as Narzania said it does not do that i.e its bugged and warriors are nerfed.

Yes, that was the intention (and the patch notes specifically mentioned this at the time) .. the logic was that you shouldn't be penalised by losing a talented ability simply because you're trying to mitigate damage.

As Explained in my previous post though, that kind of algorithm would have placed too much strain on the server (swing tables being calculated server-side), so they decided to make the resilience percentage a flat-crit reduction percentage, and allow on-crit abilities to proc off non crits (using your resilience figure as the chance figure)

[Narzania]

imo, if resilience blocks a crit it should be counted as a crit vs the talents and proc both just like a normal crit does. but if what Narzania says is correct it sounds like a bug too me, its not a bonus that a resilience reduced crit does only proc one of them when it should proc both like everyone elses talents does. way too nerf warriors, gg

Ofc another way to nerf warrior they nerf us now enough but these are hidden nerfs. And ofc I strongly support the comment that "if resilience blocks a crit it should be counted as a crit vs the talents and proc both just like a normal crit does.

[Narzania]

Stop saying nonsense... It procs on crit, u manage to avoid it by stats like resilience (and, why not, like def), u did not take the damage, so u don't have your proc (read your talent). If u take a crit, it procs 100%, even if resilience manages to reduce the damage. "Way to nerf warriors", u piss me off....

Warriors have been overnerfed constantly. Why does it pissed you off? If 1 ability procs the other should proc also and they dont thats a fact.You tell me many theories here. If you can prove me otherwise by quoting me a BLUE post then I will believe you.But not in theries please to cover the fact that warriors are not nerfed.

[Narzania]

People, what Borbes says here is correct. If you get crit you get the proc (off both). If you have resilience, then the percentage that your resilience reduces the chance to get crit, becomes a percentage that "chance on being crit" abilities can proc of a non-crit.

Apparently, they tried to code having your "On crit" abilities still proc if resilience negated the crit, but that became far too intensive.

When someone swings at you, let's assume that the only things that could be done is a 90% hit, 10% crit. You stack 1% crit reduction via resilience, so that changes the swing table to 91% hit, 9% crit. Now you want that 1% that moved from crit to hit to still be a crit ... but not really crit - you're adding an extra parameter into the swing table ... for that reason, "On crit" abilities will not have a 1% (your resilience) chance to proc on any non-crit swing. All it does is make the swing table a lot less cluttered.

So what was happening in the OP's case, was that his resilience was such that Enrage proc'd off a non-crit due to resilienc, but Blood thirst did not. Not a bug, just a side effect of the coded swing mechanics.

And yes, I DO recall reading about this (On-crit abilities proccing of non-crits due to resilience) via a blue post ... it WAS a while back, but I'll see if I can find it.

THis is a more constructive post but yes if you can find out it would be helpful. If there is no blue post I will assume its abug and we, as warriors, have to report it to be fixed.

[Narzania]

ofc it alwats procs on crits, but it SHOULD also proc when you "dodge" a crit with help of resilience (or defense even). l2read blues, i dont have a link for it now but it is stated that both enrage and blood craze should proc when you avoid a crit with help of resilience and as Narzania said it does not do that i.e its bugged and warriors are nerfed.

Big time nerf as BC is theoretically intended to be a very useful ability.

[Calminaion]

THis is a more constructive post but yes if you can find out it would be helpful. If there is no blue post I will assume its abug and we, as warriors, have to report it to be fixed.

I am almost 100% certain this is the case, no theories here, promise. I don't believe it to be a nerf at all. If you're fighting somebody with 25% crit chance - that means that you're going to get a 25% chance to proc Enrage and BC.

If you push 5% of that off the table, you'll still have a 25% chance to receive Enrage and BC ... 20% from the crits you receive, and another 5% from a chance from non-crits ... you don't lose out, at all. In fact you may actually gain - you could proc Enrage from a non-crit, and the proc BC from the next swing and it's a non-crit. WIthout resilience, there would have been no chance of it.

Big time nerf as BC is theoretically intended to be a very useful ability.

Still - No - as mentioned above, you will still receive your BC or Enrage procs at the same rate you would have if you had no resilience. There is NO nerf here ... at all.

[Narzania]

I am almost 100% certain this is the case, no theories here, promise. I don't believe it to be a nerf at all. If you're fighting somebody with 25% crit chance - that means that you're going to get a 25% chance to proc Enrage and BC.

If you push 5% of that off the table, you'll still have a 25% chance to receive Enrage and BC ... 20% from the crits you receive, and another 5% from a chance from non-crits ... you don't lose out, at all. In fact you may actually gain - you could proc Enrage from a non-crit, and the proc BC from the next swing and it's a non-crit. WIthout resilience, there would have been no chance of it.

Still - No - as mentioned above, you will still receive your BC or Enrage procs at the same rate you would have if you had no resilience. There is NO nerf here ... at all.

I understant your argumentation and it makes sence and is indeed constructive but still without being documented in a blue post it becomes questionable.

[Calminaion]

Best I can do for the moment is quote the entry from the patch notes for 2.0.7

"Any effect which benefits the victim of a critical strike will now trigger even if resilience converted the attack from a critical strike to a normal strike; this applies to melee, ranged, and spell. The affected talents, abilities, and items are: "Eye for an Eye", "Blessed Resilience", "Enrage", "Martyrdom", "Blood Craze", "Eye of the Storm", and "Bonespike Shoulder"."

This still doesn't back up my argument entirely, but the intention is clearly there to prevent Resilience from being a negative stat rather than a positive one.

I'll still keep looking for the post which explains how they actually implemented this.

[Narzania]

Best I can do for the moment is quote the entry from the patch notes for 2.0.7

"Any effect which benefits the victim of a critical strike will now trigger even if resilience converted the attack from a critical strike to a normal strike; this applies to melee, ranged, and spell. The affected talents, abilities, and items are: "Eye for an Eye", "Blessed Resilience", "Enrage", "Martyrdom", "Blood Craze", "Eye of the Storm", and "Bonespike Shoulder"."

This still doesn't back up my argument entirely, but the intention is clearly there to prevent Resilience from being a negative stat rather than a positive one.

I'll still keep looking for the post which explains how they actually implemented this.

"[i]Any effect which benefits the victim of a critical strike will now trigger even if resilience converted the attack from a critical strike to a normal strike;" This clearly states that they should both proc exactly the same way as in the absence of resilience. I am afraid that BC and Enrage do not work properly as indented and they work probably the way you had indicated on your post earlier however it does not work the way the blue post presents it. I am very unhappy to see that it is a possible bug and an indirect nerf to warriors that needs to be fixed. :'( :'( :'(