Executioner: Sunder Armor effect?

[Felix]

I am in between chosing an executioner vs moongose and I have seen many top rated warriors going with Executioner. I was thinking that Moongose is very good because the 120 agility would offer you a dodge boost against melee plus some armor on top of the crit.

However, I wanted to ask if the executioner debuff makes your target affected against all enemies just as sunder armor works or its a personal "buff" on you and does not relate to other melee also being after your target.

[Azain]

I am in between chosing an executioner vs moongose and I have seen many top rated warriors going with Executioner. I was thinking that Moongose is very good because the 120 agility would offer you a dodge boost against melee plus some armor on top of the crit.

However, I wanted to ask if the executioner debuff makes your target affected against all enemies just as sunder armor works or its a personal "buff" on you and does not relate to other melee also being after your target.

executioner is a personal buff only. i have it on my s3 sword and i believe it is well worth it, especially if you have an "on use" trinket. when you see executioner go up, pop your trinket and you can deal out some amazing damage. stack that with WF or some other proc and its GG.

the thing you have to consider is given full s3 and full vindicator gear you have something like 1200 armor pierce. with executioner up that exceeds 2k, easily covering priests, mages and warlocks, consider its hard for priests to spam inner fire if they are being focus'd. even at the resil cap, if you can do 8% more physical damage base, before the crit or anything, you will see a huge boost in damage.

this is effectively a way around resilience, mongoose is nice yes, but it doesn't give you that raw physical damage on every single hit, plus afaik executioner is set to 1ppm, same as mongoose, but with no cd. for me its up about as much as mongoose, but has a much better effect.

as a side note: its even more powerful for rogues with the TK trinket, they are capable of dropping another 1k armor there. i have done some basic testing, not enough to post confident results, with that +30 hit rating, 600 armor pierce trinket, name escape me right now, and that does seem to stack with executioner, as does faerie fire and such. in short a ret pally/warrior/druid, as we run, can effectively sunder and ff and drop even the armor of a rogue or druid and some hunters down below 1k, making for some great physical damage.

[Blitzlunar]

You're thinking of Warp-Spring Coil,
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30450

But.. no stamina makes it a very questionable choice. In my opinion, anyway.

[Visara]

Given that WHEN IT PROCs, its a great enchant to put on your S3 weapon...but like Mongoose, it still has to proc in order for its effect to come into play. Basically you hit a guy a couple of times and then it procs...then you go and hit them more with the proc on. How many times are you going to have the opportunity to freely beat on them?

SO...Im wondering if this is going to be more worth it compared to getting a constant and steady savagery?

[Azain]

Given that WHEN IT PROCs, its a great enchant to put on your S3 weapon...but like Mongoose, it still has to proc in order for its effect to come into play. Basically you hit a guy a couple of times and then it procs...then you go and hit them more with the proc on. How many times are you going to have the opportunity to freely beat on them?

SO...Im wondering if this is going to be more worth it compared to getting a constant and steady savagery?

well...define constant and steady

if you are saying "how many times can you freely beat on them", then that would apply to savagery as well. if out of 30 seconds you hit them for 15 and are CC'd the other 15, but only hit them when its up, then of course its better, and then the opposite also holds true, getting frost trapped as soon as exec or mongoose proc.

but my question back to you is, why are you not freely beating on something? warriors have very little to no CC other than fear, and even our single target lockdown is weak, pummel and intercept are not the same as a rogue. our job is to make sure MS is up 100% of the time on the target and deal out maximum damage.

if you are finding that you want to get a different enchant because you are having trouble staying on a target, then you need to consider changing around your group makeup first. i'm saying exec/mongoose are better that savagery because overall they buff your damage more regardless of time spent in CC, and then further that exec beats out mongoose.

edit: wording

[Visara]

So arena begins and you charge a target. Lets say you're in a team to nuke them down and aim to down a target within the first 10-15 seconds.

1. If executioner procs, the fight goes hands down in the favor of this enchant because in the next few swings, you're doing ridiculous damage. The crazy armor piercing will probably contribute to your output which would be greater than the value of savagery

2. You hit the target for the first 10 seconds of battle (4-5 swings?) and executioner does not proc. Im assuming you didnt pop trinket (since the proc didnt go off) and you're losing out on the "steady/constant" AP that savagery would have given you in those very few swings. Id say that in this scenario, savagery would be better.


Im only bringing this up because Ive seen some top end teams put savagery (oppose to Mongoose) on their weapon and go with "constant AP vs reliance on a proc."

[Azain]

i do see that rationale for savagery and in that case yes i would agree with you, but i also assume you are speaking from a 3v3 or 5v5 perspective, since nuking is very rare in 2v2 anymore.

also do those teams use axes for consistency, a static 5% crit or do they rely on the procs of mace or sword, same argument applies here? i'm looking at it from the point of overall arena, any combo any match, executioner will give you more burst and should give you more overall.

as for wanting the 70 ap to drop a target in the first 10 seconds, i really don't know if it makes that big an impact, but i definitely see why people use it...

[torbert]

the thing you have to consider is given full s3 and full vindicator gear you have something like 1200 armor pierce. with executioner up that exceeds 2k, easily covering priests, mages and warlocks,

for warriors at least:

s3 chest: 84
s3 helm: 84
s3 legs: 84
dory's embrace: 112
vindicator ring: 56
s3 2h weapon: 98

thats 518.. don't know where you're getting 1200

[Visara]

No, standard top teams dont...quite use...axes. At least not the ones ive been looking at Azain. Its usually just the standard stunherald or occasional S2 sword.

My point of view comes from the 3v3 and 5v5 stand point

Lastly, wanna say thanks for that second post of yours on this thread. It shines a lotta light oh which enchant is good. I have some questions though...You said that you go with an S3 sword with executioner...but would the same go for S3 mace or SH? For the slower weapons, would you still go executioner or stick with savagery for consistency (probably executioner since you said it has overall higher burst dmg and so higher "overall") ?

...and does the extra sword proc have a chance to proc off executioner?

[torbert]

What do you mean "off executioner"? Executioner is just a weapon proc.. not an extra attack or anything. Sword spec could proc off the same hit as executioner procs off, yes.

[Azain]

for warriors at least:

s3 chest: 84
s3 helm: 84
s3 legs: 84
dory's embrace: 112
vindicator ring: 56
s3 2h weapon: 98

thats 518.. don't know where you're getting 1200

yea those are correct, i was using my own testing figures with different trinkets, or faerie fire and such, those numbers were off...

[Azain]

What do you mean "off executioner"? Executioner is just a weapon proc.. not an extra attack or anything. Sword spec could proc off the same hit as executioner procs off, yes.

this is also correct, nothing procs off executioner, sadly the days of the proc rogue and warrior are gone. i remember double crusader with 8pc BF, sword spec and vis'kag, then SnD, BF, and troll zerking. pretty cool to see that stuff chain off each other.

just to confirm torbert, sword spec can only proc off white hits, no longer itself or other warrior abilities. (the spamstring thing that still occurs with mace spec). also weapon and trinket procs are now independent entities, they proc only off white hits and warrior abilities, but they cannot proc each other or a sword spec.

[Azain]

No, standard top teams dont...quite use...axes. At least not the ones ive been looking at Azain. Its usually just the standard stunherald or occasional S2 sword.

My point of view comes from the 3v3 and 5v5 stand point

Lastly, wanna say thanks for that second post of yours on this thread. It shines a lotta light oh which enchant is good. I have some questions though...You said that you go with an S3 sword with executioner...but would the same go for S3 mace or SH? For the slower weapons, would you still go executioner or stick with savagery for consistency (probably executioner since you said it has overall higher burst dmg and so higher "overall") ?

...and does the extra sword proc have a chance to proc off executioner?

incoming triple post...

a lot of this depends on personal preference. maces, both S3 and SH, provide nice CC, but more important is your spec, if you have exec or mongoose, with flurry or imp hs, which you are always spamming, then yea it would be nice. if you have neither of these and prefer to save rage with mace spec, definitely go savagery as you wont have enough hits to up the ppm, especially on the 3.8 speed weapon.

quick example: 3.6 speed s3 sword vs SH at 3.8:
15 seconds of executioner: 15/3.6 = 4.16666 and 15/3.8 = 3.947
from this just waiting on white hits you will get 4 hits with executioner using a 3.6 spd weapon, but only 3 using the 3.8 (that last hit falls just short).

compounding this is things like flurry or thundering meta (lol, if it ever gets fixed) and even of course mongoose, except with mongoose you would have 120 agi, aka extra crit, for that last hit.

so when you are using an enchant that is ppm and not static, you always want to max the amount of hits you do, such as sword spec and flurry and ias enchants or gems. this is also the idea behind the slam 2h dps spec and proc rogues/warriors from back in the day as i mentioned just a few posts above.

before this gets too long there is no definitive winner, its based on spec/arena team/trinkets/weapon etc etc...just be conscious of what you are using and how various things affect you.

edit: typo!

[torbert]

Actually, sword spec can proc off special attacks. I tested in BL on the PTRs the week before s3 came out. I got sword spec to proc off MS, WW, and Slam. I think you're thinking of windfury, which now only procs off white damage. Swords can still proc off anything (except other sword and windfury procs) to my knowledge.

[Felix]

incoming triple post...
quick example: 3.6 speed s3 sword vs SH at 3.8:
15 seconds of executioner: 15/3.6 = 4.16666 and 15/3.8 = 3.947
from this just waiting on white hits you will get 4 hits with executioner using a 3.6 spd weapon, but only 3 using the 3.8 (that last hit falls just short).

Although I understand the pluses executioner may have, I really do think that overal after considering many factors, Moongose is better and I can explain why:

1) When it procs it increases your attack speed by 2%. With a SH and "15 seconds of executioner: 15/3.6 = 4.16666 and 15/3.8 = 3.947". It means that you would be able to apply 3 white attacks. I am emphasizing white attacks cause the quote above does not mention instants. However, with Moongose, we have the following: (3.8 adjusted by 2% higher speed is 3.724). Therefore we have: 15/3.724 = 4.028! So with Moongose you get to hit a white 4 times instead of 3. Although its a 2% theoretical boost in overall dmg for any 3.6 speed weapon, for a SH this 1 extra white hit is an actual 33% more dmg (4 with Moongose minus 3 without = 1 is the differential. 1 divided by 3 =33%!) over the duration of 15 secs, disregardig the fact that this extra hit may crit as well or may proc another Moongose. We see therefore that this "2%" makes a big difference.

2) Moongose gives you also Armor. I have found myself latelly being amongst the focus targets in about 25% of the fights. Moongose gives Armor. I think somewhere along the line of 300 Armor, therefore countering somewhat the armor penetration of another warrior with full Vengeful and S3 weapon (an estimate of about 600?So we got about 50% mitigation 600-300=300.These are just approximate figures). In this situation Moongose is beneficial not only when you are after a target but also when you are targetted as well.

3) Moongose gives you High Dodge. I think somewhere along the line of an extra 6% dodge chance?. It mitigates the chance of being disarmed and ofc of being hit. Since no 1 is anymore immune to disarm Moongose offers another substantial benefit. In this situation Moongose is beneficial not only when you are after a target but also when you are targetted as well.

4) On top of all the above, Moongose offers a nice +3.6% crit chance boost. This is not negligible- Warrior has many abilities that proc off crits as well- 1) Deep wounds: Assuming average weapon damage of lets say SH is 475 and you crit for 1500, Deep wounds would give you (475*0.6=285) 285/1500*100= 19% more dmg over 12 secs. Deep wounds will also wound target and wont be able to bandage and wont be able to stealth. 2) Deep wounds also procs Blood Frenzy- a nice +4% boost not only in your personal damage, but also in ALL physical damage taken by your target, thereby boosting the team's psysical dmg. 3) The effect of Moongose may last longer than 15 secs, why? Ok lets say that your 3.6% crit boost is the reason you crit and it happens on the 15th second just before Moongose effect expires. Deep Wounds will still proc for another 12 seconds and therefore Blood Frenzy thereby realizing benefits of the crit for a longer duration.

On all the above I have excluded the benefit of impale.

Consluding, Moongose offers invaluable benefits not only directly related to the character that equips it but to the team as a whole, which if considered with the defensive and indirect benefits it offers discussed above, I believe that is a better enchant than Executioner. Executioner is only an offensive ability but Moongose is also defensive. Executioner ONLY benefits the person that equips it, Moongose benefits the entire group as well.

I believe, that Executioner is a very solid DW ability mainly for a rogue who with an armor penetration trinket of 1000, an executioner on 1 hander with 800+ penetration and a moongose on the other 1 hander, make an invaluable combination.

[Azain]

Although I understand the pluses executioner may have, I really do think that overal after considering many factors, Moongose is better and I can explain why:

1) When it procs it increases your attack speed by 2%. With a SH and "15 seconds of executioner: 15/3.6 = 4.16666 and 15/3.8 = 3.947". It means that you would be able to apply 3 white attacks. I am emphasizing white attacks cause the quote above does not mention instants. However, with Moongose, we have the following: (3.8 adjusted by 2% higher speed is 3.724). Therefore we have: 15/3.724 = 4.028! So with Moongose you get to hit a white 4 times instead of 3. Although its a 2% theoretical boost in overall dmg for any 3.6 speed weapon, for a SH this 1 extra white hit is an actual 33% more dmg (4 with Moongose minus 3 without = 1 is the differential. 1 divided by 3 =33%!) over the duration of 15 secs, disregardig the fact that this extra hit may crit as well or may proc another Moongose. We see therefore that this "2%" makes a big difference.

2) Moongose gives you also Armor. I have found myself latelly being amongst the focus targets in about 25% of the fights. Moongose gives Armor. I think somewhere along the line of 300 Armor, therefore countering somewhat the armor penetration of another warrior with full Vengeful and S3 weapon (an estimate of about 600?So we got about 50% mitigation 600-300=300.These are just approximate figures). In this situation Moongose is beneficial not only when you are after a target but also when you are targetted as well.

3) Moongose gives you High Dodge. I think somewhere along the line of an extra 6% dodge chance?. It mitigates the chance of being disarmed and ofc of being hit. Since no 1 is anymore immune to disarm Moongose offers another substantial benefit. In this situation Moongose is beneficial not only when you are after a target but also when you are targetted as well.

4) On top of all the above, Moongose offers a nice +3.6% crit chance boost. This is not negligible- Warrior has many abilities that proc off crits as well- 1) Deep wounds: Assuming average weapon damage of lets say SH is 475 and you crit for 1500, Deep wounds would give you (475*0.6=285) 285/1500*100= 19% more dmg over 12 secs. Deep wounds will also wound target and wont be able to bandage and wont be able to stealth. 2) Deep wounds also procs Blood Frenzy- a nice +4% boost not only in your personal damage, but also in ALL physical damage taken by your target, thereby boosting the team's psysical dmg. 3) The effect of Moongose may last longer than 15 secs, why? Ok lets say that your 3.6% crit boost is the reason you crit and it happens on the 15th second just before Moongose effect expires. Deep Wounds will still proc for another 12 seconds and therefore Blood Frenzy thereby realizing benefits of the crit for a longer duration.

On all the above I have excluded the benefit of impale.

Consluding, Moongose offers invaluable benefits not only directly related to the character that equips it but to the team as a whole, which if considered with the defensive and indirect benefits it offers discussed above, I believe that is a better enchant than Executioner. Executioner is only an offensive ability but Moongose is also defensive. Executioner ONLY benefits the person that equips it, Moongose benefits the entire group as well.

I believe, that Executioner is a very solid DW ability mainly for a rogue who with an armor penetration trinket of 1000, an executioner on 1 hander with 800+ penetration and a moongose on the other 1 hander, make an invaluable combination.

well one thing about "Therefore we have: 15/3.724 = 4.028!" that is true of mongoose, so for SH you get 4 hits while mongoose is up but only 3 if SH has executioner. so mongoose in that case works well with SH i would agree.

if you are being focus'd mongoose isn't going to save you... in the 11k+ range which most warriors are the extra 240 or w/e it is really isn't going to matter.

2ndly, i have mongoose on my 1h'er, and if you are being focus'd as a warrior at any point you should have a shield and be in D stance. believe me i do it around 80% and to no end it really irks people lol. however, for simply bursting things down i have to say executioner. we did another 50 or so games last night on a new 3v3 team. to see me critting rogues for 2500, 3k+ MS's on mages. its just a difference which is hard to account for.

and i tested it with the trinket http://thottbot.com/i28121 which i had spoke about earlier. in total dropping about 1700 ac from my enemies. huge difference.


so overall i agree with almost everything you said, but put it into perspective: armor and dodge are nice for defensive, but should be on your 1h'er to tank when being focus'd not your 2h'er.

mongoose increases attack speed yes, and 2% on a 3.8 speed is a lot, but with flurry or a thundering meta or dragonspine trophy, 2% of ~2.5 - ~2.8 is even less. the 3.6 crit is nice, i will never doubt that, but think about the axe spec vs mace/sword spec conversations we have also been having. how do you not see mongoose as another way of saying axe spec.

short of doing a lot of testing and numbers of my own (sadly i dont anymore, i troll the forums at work and play when home, i rarely spend what little play time i have to do testing) i can tell you executioner works and has impressed me quite a lot since i switched to it.

[Felix]

well one thing about "Therefore we have: 15/3.724 = 4.028!" that is true of mongoose, so for SH you get 4 hits while mongoose is up but only 3 if SH has executioner. so mongoose in that case works well with SH i would agree.

if you are being focus'd mongoose isn't going to save you... in the 11k+ range which most warriors are the extra 240 or w/e it is really isn't going to matter.

2ndly, i have mongoose on my 1h'er, and if you are being focus'd as a warrior at any point you should have a shield and be in D stance. believe me i do it around 80% and to no end it really irks people lol. however, for simply bursting things down i have to say executioner. we did another 50 or so games last night on a new 3v3 team. to see me critting rogues for 2500, 3k+ MS's on mages. its just a difference which is hard to account for.

and i tested it with the trinket http://thottbot.com/i28121 which i had spoke about earlier. in total dropping about 1700 ac from my enemies. huge difference.


so overall i agree with almost everything you said, but put it into perspective: armor and dodge are nice for defensive, but should be on your 1h'er to tank when being focus'd not your 2h'er.

mongoose increases attack speed yes, and 2% on a 3.8 speed is a lot, but with flurry or a thundering meta or dragonspine trophy, 2% of ~2.5 - ~2.8 is even less. the 3.6 crit is nice, i will never doubt that, but think about the axe spec vs mace/sword spec conversations we have also been having. how do you not see mongoose as another way of saying axe spec.

short of doing a lot of testing and numbers of my own (sadly i dont anymore, i troll the forums at work and play when home, i rarely spend what little play time i have to do testing) i can tell you executioner works and has impressed me quite a lot since i switched to it.

In 5v5 situations when I am focused true I go defensive but what about 2v2 where dps and crit will matter for instance against a rogue or another warrior..who will try to disarm me and make dmg to me...

There are also situations that you are not so intensily focused fired but somewhere in between yet not necessitating a switch on defensive to spell reflect etc.

I dont see Moongose as another way of saying axe spec but its another way of having a demi "axe" spec with the benefits of a mace or of a sword

[Felix]

and i tested it with the trinket http://thottbot.com/i28121 which i had spoke about earlier. in total dropping about 1700 ac from my enemies. huge difference.

Rogue trinket?

[Azain]

Rogue trinket?

yes most likely a rogue trinket, but as s3/vind affords you the minimum hit, and i dont like being 5% even, i prefer 6-7 just to be safe (under 6% i see the occasional miss, which simply can't happen in arenas.) so the 30 hit covers that without me needing to drop enigmatic/boar's in favor of movement meta/surefooted just to get that 10 extra hit.

also the armor pierce is nice, 20 second trinkets are nice especially stacked with executioner. i won't use it once i get s3 shoulders/chest and have a chance to throw some +hit gems on, but like i said it was just for the purposes of testing armor pierce

[Felix]

yes most likely a rogue trinket, but as s3/vind affords you the minimum hit, and i dont like being 5% even, i prefer 6-7 just to be safe (under 6% i see the occasional miss, which simply can't happen in arenas.) so the 30 hit covers that without me needing to drop enigmatic/boar's in favor of movement meta/surefooted just to get that 10 extra hit.

also the armor pierce is nice, 20 second trinkets are nice especially stacked with executioner. i won't use it once i get s3 shoulders/chest and have a chance to throw some +hit gems on, but like i said it was just for the purposes of testing armor pierce

What would you recommend as optimal hit rating for warrior in PvP? Do you also do PvE at least SSC?