S4 changes, WWI08, Frostmourne, Blue posts

[rashull]

PVE
Head, Neck, Shoulders, Back, Chest, Bracers, Gloves, Belt, Legs, Feet, R ing1, Ring2, , Trinket1, Trinket2, 1h , OH, Idol

146+138+146+141+146+141+146+128+146+141+151+152+151+110+151+141+128

Avarage = 141.35 if you will ever get it.

Based on resto druid itemlevels. PVE for best ingame list i wil even count Idol of the white stag as the idol i would use more, looking at its itemlevel since it is higher.

PVP
Head, Neck, Shoulders, Back, Chest, Bracers, Gloves, Belt, Legs, Feet, R ing1, Ring2, , Trinket1, Trinket2, 1h , OH, Idol
146+141+146+133+146+146+146+146+146+146+141+ 128+115+133+146+146+146

Avarage = 141 exact!

Mm and for arena/pvp you need to do... some bg’s and 10 matches of arena a week..
PVE you kill bosses time after time getting or an other player the item or the item never drops, like i have with my guild, killed a boss more then 20 times still the item we need didnt get, oww yeah you need to breach the 1850 barrier, OMG let us have that 0.35.
This clearly shows PVE’ers have a right to whine for all the hard effort they need to do.

[insidelane]

Hmm good point actually

[FailedCRC]

So they can fix this, yet Mutilate and Backstab is so broken it's retarded? In an arena game I played today I had my Mutilate dodged by another rogue nothing less than 4 times within ~15 seconds.

And thats a bug why? To paraphrase Pulp Fiction - "You saw a bug, I saw a freak occurrence".

Because players can't dodge attacks made from behind.

[Bhegn]

Because players can't dodge attacks made from behind.

Against players:
Can dodge from behind.
Cannot parry/block from behind.
Cannot dodge when stunned or incapped.

[FailedCRC]

Nope, mobs can dodge from behind, players can't.

[Surter]

As if it wasnt weak enough compared to Apylon... now it is not even rly better than Archimondes Sword which is available for some month now.
Season 4 is announced to start AFTER 2.4, when 2.4 hits im looking forward to get owned in arena by weaker players with better equip they got from brainless computer AI killing, YAY !

You want to know why PvE items should be better than PvP Items? Because PvErs spend 10x as much time and have to learn new fights every week. You just have learn how to trinket blind. PvP takes no more skill than PvE, and anyone who thinks it does 1) is PvPing at 1700 and thinks they're tough, 2) Has never killed Illidan, and 3) doesn't realize that half the time, pvp is as predictable as pve.

Do the people complaining about the nerfing of welfare epics listen to themselves? "BOO HOO THE SWORD OFF THE FINAL BOSS OF THE GAME THAT TOOK MONTHS OF RAIDING TO REACH IS BETTER THAN THE ONE THAT I CAN GET BY BUYING ARENA POINTS FOR 3 WEEKS BOO HOO".

Some PvPers claim they play this game for "fun"...fun is supposed to be a challenge. At least every week when you raid you have to learn how to do something new...pvpers in the 2k+ bracket are doing the same thing and using the same tricks week after week, and patting themselves on the back.

Get some perspective. You didn't have to spend thousands of gold on repairs and consumables from the wipes that were required to coordinate with 24 other people and learn a new boss. You played 10 games a week to get welfare epics.

One last thing: Every one of you saying OMG YOU'RE FIGHTING AI THATS NOT HARD has probably used cheat codes in every single player game they've played. Next time a cool game comes out, and you want to play it, remember, AI is easy, real players with an IQ of 80 are hard!


This is especially for you highwind. you call pvers "EPIX GRABBERS", and yet PvPers are the ones being handed free loot for doing almost nothing every week.

[AzGuL^]

And thats a bug why? To paraphrase Pulp Fiction - "You saw a bug, I saw a freak occurrence".

For the ignorant and clueless WoW players like you:

Mutilate Rank 4
60 Energy 5 yd range

Instant
Requires Daggers
Instantly attacks with both weapons for an additional 101 with each weapon. Damage is increased by 50% against Poisoned targets. Must be behind the target. Awards 2 combo points.

And to quote wowwiki: "Players cannot dodge, parry, or block attacks from the back."

[Chaosgaurdian]

You want to know why PvE items should be better than PvP Items? Because PvErs spend 10x as much time and have to learn new fights every week. You just have learn how to trinket blind. PvP takes no more skill than PvE, and anyone who thinks it does 1) is PvPing at 1700 and thinks they're tough, 2) Has never killed Illidan, and 3) doesn't realize that half the time, pvp is as predictable as pve.

Do the people complaining about the nerfing of welfare epics listen to themselves? "BOO HOO THE SWORD OFF THE FINAL BOSS OF THE GAME THAT TOOK MONTHS OF RAIDING TO REACH IS BETTER THAN THE ONE THAT I CAN GET BY BUYING ARENA POINTS FOR 3 WEEKS BOO HOO".

Some PvPers claim they play this game for "fun"...fun is supposed to be a challenge. At least every week when you raid you have to learn how to do something new...pvpers in the 2k+ bracket are doing the same thing and using the same tricks week after week, and patting themselves on the back.

Get some perspective. You didn't have to spend thousands of gold on repairs and consumables from the wipes that were required to coordinate with 24 other people and learn a new boss. You played 10 games a week to get welfare epics.

One last thing: Every one of you saying OMG YOU'RE FIGHTING AI THATS NOT HARD has probably used cheat codes in every single player game they've played. Next time a cool game comes out, and you want to play it, remember, AI is easy, real players with an IQ of 80 are hard!


This is especially for you highwind. you call pvers "EPIX GRABBERS", and yet PvPers are the ones being handed free loot for doing almost nothing every week.

I pvp and pve, more pvp though just because i don't have time for pve anymore. Getting these so called "well fare epics" is not as easy as you make it sound, I will admit though that there are those that bott, but when for someone like myself who works for these "well fare epics" is rewarding in that it takes effort to help other ppl in bg's, help my teammates be successful in arena, just like how you help your fellow pve'rs down a boss.

my priests teams are all 1600+ for every bracket, and I feel great knowing that i tanked every dps class there is there and kept my fellow teammates alive (along with myself) to see that we won 'x' amounts of points and ever closer to 1850 the 2k, its more exhilerating then pve, all you do is spam flash of light, an occasional greater heal, perhaps something else but i havn't gotten too deep into the 25 mans.

PvE takes coordination, as does pvp, timing your abilites in pve is crucial to downing the boss's for the nice loot.

PVP takes coordination as well, timing your abilities with every1 else on the team is not an easy task, especially in 5v5.

The only difference i see from pve and pvp, is that tactics in pve are the same unless bliz decides to change something...pvp its ever changing (although you do have a basic idea of what already to do when you see "X" class or "y" class) but these ppl are not bots, and can react to every situation in a different manner then the last "x" class or "y" class you just faced.

I laugh at ppl when i hear ppl call pvp gear "wellfare epix", i will say that perhaps season1 can be called "wellfare epics" just because you can get them with honor now, and soon to be s2, but the fact remains that saving points for your s3 and soon to be s4 for all those others, is just as hard as pve....perhaps it'll take just as much time to get full s3 gear as it would for hard core pve'rs to get their t5/6 gear.

We don't down the boss's but we come across ppl that play different from the last person we saw. and those with s3 shoulders is pretty much like having champion of the naruu title....they didn't get it by doing nothing, they worked hard for it just like pve'rs work for their t5/6.

Both ways give you epics, but both sides of the epics ( pvp vs pve) is not useful in the other (pvp for pve and pve for pvp).

[Selenti]

You want to know why PvE items should be better than PvP Items? Because PvErs spend 10x as much time and have to learn new fights every week. You just have learn how to trinket blind. PvP takes no more skill than PvE, and anyone who thinks it does 1) is PvPing at 1700 and thinks they're tough, 2) Has never killed Illidan, and 3) doesn't realize that half the time, pvp is as predictable as pve.

Do the people complaining about the nerfing of welfare epics listen to themselves? "BOO HOO THE SWORD OFF THE FINAL BOSS OF THE GAME THAT TOOK MONTHS OF RAIDING TO REACH IS BETTER THAN THE ONE THAT I CAN GET BY BUYING ARENA POINTS FOR 3 WEEKS BOO HOO".

Some PvPers claim they play this game for "fun"...fun is supposed to be a challenge. At least every week when you raid you have to learn how to do something new...pvpers in the 2k+ bracket are doing the same thing and using the same tricks week after week, and patting themselves on the back.

Get some perspective. You didn't have to spend thousands of gold on repairs and consumables from the wipes that were required to coordinate with 24 other people and learn a new boss. You played 10 games a week to get welfare epics.

One last thing: Every one of you saying OMG YOU'RE FIGHTING AI THATS NOT HARD has probably used cheat codes in every single player game they've played. Next time a cool game comes out, and you want to play it, remember, AI is easy, real players with an IQ of 80 are hard!


This is especially for you highwind. you call pvers "EPIX GRABBERS", and yet PvPers are the ones being handed free loot for doing almost nothing every week.

Wrong, the whole point of arena was to equalize gear in PVP, so that fights in PVP are a competition of skill (or, at least, skill at forming the right comps) rather than who raided more. This is actually part of the reason raiding took such a nosedive with TBC, a lot of people pre-TBC only raided because they had to to gear up for PVP.

Is it dumb you can gear up to a T6 level in a matter of weeks if you leech off a good team? Sure. But it'd be even dumber if the only way to compete in PVP was to go raid for 6 months. "BUT I WERK HARDER!!!!" isn't a good argument. ILVL of arena items should generally be higher than anything but the last boss of the latest instance. The problem with S4 items as they're being tweaked is that the ilvl will be lower than the average stuff of the new instance.

Want to know the really funny thing? I don't PVE anymore because I was tired of being forced to play with bad players. There's a PVE guild on my server starting to farm BT... I wouldn't arena with anyone in the guild because they're all uniformly bad or at least mediocre players. Good arena players do less work for their gear, but they also play a lot better. It's kind of cool to see good play being rewarded over lots of play, I have to say.

[Surter]

I laugh at ppl when i hear ppl call pvp gear "wellfare epix", i will say that perhaps season1 can be called "wellfare epics" just because you can get them with honor now, and soon to be s2, but the fact remains that saving points for your s3 and soon to be s4 for all those others, is just as hard as pve....perhaps it'll take just as much time to get full s3 gear as it would for hard core pve'rs to get their t5/6 gear.

I don't know about you, but I see WTS 1k ARENA POINTS 700G and WTS 2K PERSONAL RATING 3000G every day in trade chat. Yeah, you're right, getting the best items in the game for a couple thousand gold isn't "welfare epics". It takes no more effort than being a tailor...everyone agreed tailoring gear was ridiculously good...so is pvp gear.

Resil ruined the game. Resil made it so you CAN'T pve to pvp...and yet, you CAN pvp to pve...hell, warrior s3 is some of the best warrior dps gear in the game. How is this fair?

It isn't. Blizzard is doing what will get them the most players, and making the game easier and easier is the best way to do this. Why else would they be giving out epic gems for badges, or t6 level gear for running kara for a few weeks?

[Pyrostemplar]

Wrong, the whole point of arena was to equalize gear in PVP, so that fights in PVP are a competition of skill (or, at least, skill at forming the right comps) rather than who raided more. This is actually part of the reason raiding took such a nosedive with TBC, a lot of people pre-TBC only raided because they had to to gear up for PVP.

Nope - it took a nosedive because you could get (for example) weapons that were better than anything up to mid Naxx in a weekend.. guaranteed.

Is it dumb you can gear up to a T6 level in a matter of weeks if you leech off a good team? Sure. But it'd be even dumber if the only way to compete in PVP was to go raid for 6 months. "BUT I WERK HARDER!!!!" isn't a good argument. ILVL of arena items should generally be higher than anything but the last boss of the latest instance. The problem with S4 items as they're being tweaked is that the ilvl will be lower than the average stuff of the new instance.

Why should they be higher? If you want to equate that top PVP gear = top PVE gear for PVE, then they should be about 20 Ilevels bellow or something. Anyway it is a moot point - as PVP is dynamic gearwise (or should be - meaning that you should not outgear the opponents ^^), unlike PVE. Therefore you can make a far better case for PVE iLevel >> PVP Ilevel than the opposite.

[Selenti]

Nope - it took a nosedive because you could get (for example) weapons that were better than anything up to mid Naxx in a weekend.. guaranteed.

Why should they be higher? If you want to equate that top PVP gear = top PVE gear for PVE, then they should be about 20 Ilevels bellow or something. Anyway it is a moot point - as PVP is dynamic gearwise (or should be - meaning that you should not outgear the opponents ^^), unlike PVE. Therefore you can make a far better case for PVE iLevel >> PVP Ilevel than the opposite.

You're not hearing me (or Blizzard's thoughts, which are basically the same). Top PVP gear is supposed to be top for PVP. This means (as a side-effect) that until they start making items only equippable in arena, items that are the best in PVP may also be better than what is available to a casual raider. To be honest, IF rating buying was not possible, the weapons would be totally fine. Someone who finds Kara challenging isn't going to get 1850 rating legitly, for the most part.

"it took a nosedive because you could get (for example) weapons that were better than anything up to mid Naxx in a weekend.. guaranteed."

Exactly, but what does that tell you? Maybe the people who were raiding for the best weapons didn't want to PVE, after all? What you're seeing with TBC is strong evidence that most players don't really prefer Blizzard's PVE model.

The alternative? How it was before TBC. Raid or die. Literally, if you don't raid, you can't compete. I'm sure that'd be very comfortable situation for raiders, but from an objective standpoint it would be a great way to kill their game.