Penance and Dispersion...suck?

[Marrakech]

Also not including the extra Mind Flays or the Double crits, or the fact that we can use SWD more often now, OR the 5% extra spell damage from Discipline. It will equal the 5% you are just not thinking about the big picture.

True i didnt factor those in but it still wouldnt give enough extra damage to make the new VT on par.

''we can use SWD more often now'' - not really relevant as i currently use it on every cooldown for most fights (would only increase dps in certain phases of certain bosses, but nontheless a dps increase)

''extra mind flays or double crits'' - Okay the crits are not double that of TBC they are 175% compared with 150% before (possibly a 3% dps increase over a 6 minute fight) The extra 7 mind flays i would generously put at another 2% dps increase over a 6 minute tank'n'spank fight.

''extra 5% spell damage from Discipline'' - forgot about this

so all in all these three would be about 13% more dps, putting us at a whopping ~33% dps increase relatively to BC talents, STILL not enough to make VT on par with its predecessor, BUT certainly we will be pushing a lot more DPS than in BC, which i'm sure our Raid leaders will be happy about.

I am tired now, and studying all these factors has made me see we will be suffering less relative mana output, but gaining a lot more damage. I assume this is due to so many other classes also being able to share out mana.

[Deleted]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNbFYSXON6Q

:P

[jhemfl]

True i didnt factor those in but it still wouldnt give enough extra damage to make the new VT on par.

''we can use SWD more often now'' - not really relevant as i currently use it on every cooldown for most fights (would only increase dps in certain phases of certain bosses, but nontheless a dps increase)

''extra mind flays or double crits'' - Okay the crits are not double that of TBC they are 175% compared with 150% before (possibly a 3% dps increase over a 6 minute fight) The extra 7 mind flays i would generously put at another 2% dps increase over a 6 minute tank'n'spank fight.

''extra 5% spell damage from Discipline'' - forgot about this

so all in all these three would be about 13% more dps, putting us at a whopping ~33% dps increase relatively to BC talents, STILL not enough to make VT on par with its predecessor, BUT certainly we will be pushing a lot more DPS than in BC, which i'm sure our Raid leaders will be happy about.

I am tired now, and studying all these factors has made me see we will be suffering less relative mana output, but gaining a lot more damage. I assume this is due to so many other classes also being able to share out mana.

Yea the crits are double in WotLK for Spriest's. PreBC if a MB dealt 100 dmg, it would crit for 150. Now, in WotLK if a MB dealth 100 dmg, it would crit for 200. So yes, double.

[Manip]

As a Sunwell raiding SP I love Dispersion. I need an "oh s!8%" button as much as any other class. I already effectively have 4k less HP thanks to SWeath backfire.

- A Mage in Sunwell would have 10k HP, Iceblock, and Fire Ward.
- A Warlock has 12.5k HP.
- A Shadow Priest in equal gear has 6k HP and only a lame PW:Shield to try and keep ourselves up.

I'm not sure I care about the mana return but given the huge nerf to VT I'm sure it will be a lot more important in WotlK content. As far as the "oh s!8%" button goes if anyone thinks it sucks then you need to stop "raiding" Kara and do some serious content.

PS - I appreciate that SWeath doesn't always crit but I have a 34% chance of it critting raid buffed right now. It does hit for 4k. Even with the 60% less damage taken it will still crit for 50% more so we're only looking at roughly a 10% saving on Crit Backfires.

[Marrakech]

150% to 200% as opposed to 150% to 175% is still only a couple of dps% i'm afraid :P

~35% damage increase from talents in wotlk then, a shame that VT is nerfed by 60% not 35% eh?

[Marrakech]

As far as the "oh s!8%" button goes if anyone thinks it sucks then you need to stop "raiding" Kara and do some serious content.

You'd rather an oshit button for when your kara-friendly ''raiding'' skills backfire, than something more raid-beneficial?

K, casuals win again.

[jhemfl]

150% to 200% as opposed to 150% to 175% is still only a couple of dps% i'm afraid :P

~35% damage increase from talents in wotlk then, a shame that VT is nerfed by 60% not 35% eh?

What are you talking about? Where are you getting this 175% bs from?

[Marrakech]

What are you talking about? Where are you getting this 175% bs from?

in my calculation of 33% i thought the crit increase was 150%(BC) to 175%(WOTLK)

after you said it was 200% which is correct i then said the base % increase is 35% from our talent changes.

[jhemfl]

As a Sunwell raiding SP I love Dispersion. I need an "oh s!8%" button as much as any other class. I already effectively have 4k less HP thanks to SWeath backfire.

- A Mage in Sunwell would have 10k HP, Iceblock, and Fire Ward.
- A Warlock has 12.5k HP.
- A Shadow Priest in equal gear has 6k HP and only a lame PW:Shield to try and keep ourselves up.

I'm not sure I care about the mana return but given the huge nerf to VT I'm sure it will be a lot more important in WotlK content. As far as the "oh s!8%" button goes if anyone thinks it sucks then you need to stop "raiding" Kara and do some serious content.

PS - I appreciate that SWeath doesn't always crit but I have a 34% chance of it critting raid buffed right now. It does hit for 4k. Even with the 60% less damage taken it will still crit for 50% more so we're only looking at roughly a 10% saving on Crit Backfires.

WTF? You're wearing the wrong gear.

[Manip]

no i got it, you tried insulting cause your facts didnt add up and it just made you look like an idiot.

There's nothing wrong with raiding Kara. I mean everyone has to start somewhere.

My point was I struggle to see how anybody doing BT/Hyjal/Sunwell level content could argue that an "oh s!8%" button is useless. So I come to the conclusion that they aren't raiding that level of content.

You quoted me and said something about SWeath being a "kara skill" and rambles on about something or other. I might be an idiot but at least my posts make sense.

Your point about me making Ad Hominem attacks might have been valid if you had actually made an interesting case to begin with or that I was aiming my thoughts at anyone in particular.

WTF? You're wearing the wrong gear.

Feel free to checkout my armory.

[Marrakech]

There's nothing wrong with raiding Kara. I mean everyone has to start somewhere.

Ah, a fine attempt at trying to look intelligent and/or insult me.

Yes i am raiding sunwell plateau; it's nothing big so stop acting like you're the dogs bollocks, you're not.

My point was I struggle to see how anybody doing BT/Hyjal/Sunwell level content could argue that an "oh s!8%" button is useless. So I come to the conclusion that they aren't raiding that level of content.

Where did i say dispersion is useless? My point is that if you're doing what the fuck you're supposed to be doing on any boss fight, and the healers are doing what the fuck they're supposed to be doing; the chances that you'll have an OSHIT moment are fucking minimal.

Sure Dispersion is nice and more useful for those guilds who have under experienced healers or they themselves find it hard to AVOID TEH FIRE, but i'd take a more skill dependant RAID-BENEFICIAL 51 pointer any day of the week to this evocation+renew knockoff.

[jhemfl]

There's nothing wrong with raiding Kara. I mean everyone has to start somewhere.

My point was I struggle to see how anybody doing BT/Hyjal/Sunwell level content could argue that an "oh s!8%" button is useless. So I come to the conclusion that they aren't raiding that level of content.

You quoted me and said something about SWeath being a "kara skill" and rambles on about something or other. I might be an idiot but at least my posts make sense.

Your point about me making Ad Hominem attacks might have been valid if you had actually made an interesting case to begin with or that I was aiming my thoughts at anyone in particular.

Feel free to checkout my armory.

Not sure how you're getting to 34% crit. Sounds like BS.

[Marrakech]

Not sure how you're getting to 34% crit. Sounds like BS.

i assume he's including 5/5 shadow power in that; ie. 19% crit on the stats sheet, 34% talented.

[jhemfl]

Ah, a fine attempt at trying to look intelligent and/or insult me.

Yes i am raiding sunwell plateau; it's nothing big so stop acting like you're the dogs bollocks, you're not.


Where did i say dispersion is useless? My point is that if you're doing what the fuck you're supposed to be doing on any boss fight, and the healers are doing what the fuck they're supposed to be doing; the chances that you'll have an OSHIT moment are fucking minimal.

Sure Dispersion is nice and more useful for those guilds who have under experienced healers or they themselves find it hard to AVOID TEH FIRE, but i'd take a more skill dependant RAID-BENEFICIAL 51 pointer any day of the week to this evocation+renew knockoff.

He's right though, an O SHIT button is a great thing to have when raiding high content. This game is based on RNG, you cannot say "if you're doing what the fuck you're supposed to be doing on any boss fight, and the healers are doing what the fuck they're supposed to be doing; the chances that you'll have an OSHIT moment are fucking minimal" because random shit happens all the time, I would rather have an OSHIT button and not wipe to random bad luck than not have it and rely on healers to keep me alive when things go wrong.

The best guild in the world can wipe on bad luck, there is never a time where an OSHIT button wouldn't help yourself and the raid.

[Manip]

My point is that if you're doing what the fuck you're supposed to be doing on any boss fight, and the healers are doing what the fuck they're supposed to be doing; the chances that you'll have an OSHIT moment are fucking minimal.

In a perfect world. This is raiding though. I'd always hit it in Shaz if she hit me with attraction. You rarely die unless someone makes a mistake but without using mods to help it is extremely easy to make such a mistake or at least not to correct the mistake soon enough (e.g. two people running along the same path for too long).

more skill dependant RAID-BENEFICIAL 51 pointer any day of the week to this evocation+renew knockoff.

Like what?

Not sure how you're getting to 34% crit. Sounds like BS.

15% base raid buffed + 15% from talents + 3% of ToW = 33~34%

[jhemfl]

Yea I thought he meant like, character pane 34%

[Minders]

I'd like to add some things.

1: Someone said that 5man bosses don't count. But so far they're all we have. Thus they DO count. If nothing else they might be a good indication of what we will have to face in the raids. You cannot say that someone bringing up a 5man boss is wrong just because you assume it is like that.

2: Are you actually playing the beta? If not then don't state things as facts. Theorycrafting has been wrong before.

3: Stop throwing insults everywhere

4: It is beta, don't act like things are set in stone. On the other hand, stop saying "Stop QQing" because this is the time when players have a chance to affect it. This IS the time to QQ, and do it as much as you possibly can. But try to be constructive and if you find anything worthwile don't forget to post it on the blizz forums too.

[drakath]

Not all talents are PvE talents. That basically settles this argument.

In fact a lot of the 'plateau' talent points I find are more tuned towards being PvP viable, because they're used to prevent people from stacking too many 'op abilities'.

Dispersion is a fine talent if you ask me. Huge buff to PvP.



If any of this has been mentioned before in this thread, sorry, but I didn't read through all 8 pages.

[Deleted]

Did a little cleanup of pages 6, 7 and 8 and I had to delete far more posts containing nothing but personal insults then I would have liked to.

I suggest you guys take a look at these new forum guidelines that came in effect yesterday. It's an interesting and enriching read no doubt.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=11619.0


I'll leave this thread open hoping any intelligent discussion can still be continued.

[Minders]

Another thing I thought about, wich probably has been mentioned already tho.
Remember that every raid will be both 10 and 25 man. In that situation increasing the viability of a Spriests dps is a good idea. You can't afford to bring a pure utility character to a serious 10 man raid. But this increases the Spriests chance to come since the dps has been boosted and there will still be utility in the form of PW:Fort, shackle and ress. Since you're limited to 10 spots not all guilds will probably bring a holy priest but this at least let them bring a priest for those things, still give some mana back to the mana group and not gimp the dps.