About time to revert Fanaticism?

[Raptorg]

no, i'm not talking about removing the threat, i'm talking about the talent affecting Seal

in its early times it increased the crit chance of Seals as well as Judgements

i think it's about time to make it affect seals once again

[Biral]

Too OP, sorry =(

[Rawberry]

Can't people just be content with the changes already in place?

[Samiel]

No, they can't, and wont as long as they aren't in the Beta, and then they will start saying Ret needs to be nerfed. (Which it will, unfortunately, but hopefully not by more than about 10-15% Damage Output-wise.)

[mcstu]

They shouldnt nerf it at all tbh, we are only starting to be competitive in terms of pve dps.

IMo there should be more pve talents. Blizz have stated that they want each tree in each class to be slightly bloated (so that not everyone has the same build). Now if you want a pvp build, the ret tree is very much bloated but if you are only interested in pve, its almost anorexic.

Even with taking PoJ which only benefits pve'rs a tiny bit, you are still left with points over- if you dont take benediction, whihc has lost a lot of its appeal, you are left with around 7 points that are redundant for a raiding ret. Remember in raids, you aint gonna be healing and you aint gonna be off tanking, you are there for dps only- there is nothing in holy/prot that you would want to take. Imo precision should be brought back into prot so we can spend these points.

[Nookius]

They shouldnt nerf it at all tbh, we are only starting to be competitive in terms of pve dps.

IMo there should be more pve talents. Blizz have stated that they want each tree in each class to be slightly bloated (so that not everyone has the same build). Now if you want a pvp build, the ret tree is very much bloated but if you are only interested in pve, its almost anorexic.

Even with taking PoJ which only benefits pve'rs a tiny bit, you are still left with points over- if you dont take benediction, whihc has lost a lot of its appeal, you are left with around 7 points that are redundant for a raiding ret. Remember in raids, you aint gonna be healing and you aint gonna be off tanking, you are there for dps only- there is nothing in holy/prot that you would want to take. Imo precision should be brought back into prot so we can spend these points.

so divine strength in the prot tree is worthless for ret? i think its the only points worth spending outside of the ret tree for anything ret.

[mcstu]

That includes spending 5 points in divine strength;

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000

and that includes 5 points in benediction, which isnt as useful as it is currently due to 2 min seals

[Daviid Leethsiah]

Can't people just be content with the changes already in place?

This.

[mcstu]

This.

You should always question things.

[Seraphk]

No, they can't, and wont as long as they aren't in the Beta, and then they will start saying Ret needs to be nerfed. (Which it will, unfortunately, but hopefully not by more than about 10-15% Damage Output-wise.)

Agreed on people not in beta. However, 15 - 20% sounds more accurate.

I have two friends in beta, one is a Warglaive MH Rogue (dang the luck some of us have with the warglaives) and the other is a full T6 Destro Lock minus Boots. They've been running instances and doing about 1.2 - 1.4 k DPS in the overall damage recap. The Warlock recently went Affliction to test it. While doing so, he ran with a Ret Paladin which completely obliterated in DPS and damage done. I'll find a screenshot for you.

1500 DPS Ret Paladin

Yay for my guildie at least being second on DPS as an Affliction Warlock... I guess... When one of your DPS is doing nearly 50% of your instance groups DPS with a DPS capable of nearly 1 k DPS himself. It should be apparent something is up.

A 20% nerf to DPS would lower it to around 1200 DPS and put it up with the Warglaive Rogue in terms of damage done. Most people would still want it nerfed more, however, that's what I would consider "sane" DPS. 1500 DPS in an instance ( in which the BM Hunter is the only buff that Paladin was receiving, the Warrior was using Commanding Shout rather than Battle Shout ) without any decent melee buffs shows you that there's something up.

Either way, glad some Ret Paladins have accepted there will be a nerf inc. Like you, Samiel, I just hope it's a nerf to overall damage done rather than completely gimping a particular ability/mechanic or causing the loss of some utility.

[Darkspells]

Agreed on people not in beta. However, 15 - 20% sounds more accurate.

I have two friends in beta, one is a Warglaive MH Rogue (dang the luck some of us have with the warglaives) and the other is a full T6 Destro Lock minus Boots. They've been running instances and doing about 1.2 - 1.4 k DPS in the overall damage recap. The Warlock recently went Affliction to test it. While doing so, he ran with a Ret Paladin which completely obliterated in DPS and damage done. I'll find a screenshot for you.

1500 DPS Ret Paladin

Yay for my guildie at least being second on DPS as an Affliction Warlock... I guess... When one of your DPS is doing nearly 50% of your instance groups DPS with a DPS capable of nearly 1 k DPS himself. It should be apparent something is up.

A 20% nerf to DPS would lower it to around 1200 DPS and put it up with the Warglaive Rogue in terms of damage done. Most people would still want it nerfed more, however, that's what I would consider "sane" DPS. 1500 DPS in an instance ( in which the BM Hunter is the only buff that Paladin was receiving, the Warrior was using Commanding Shout rather than Battle Shout ) without any decent melee buffs shows you that there's something up.

Either way, glad some Ret Paladins have accepted there will be a nerf inc. Like you, Samiel, I just hope it's a nerf to overall damage done rather than completely gimping a particular ability/mechanic or causing the loss of some utility.

Do you have any information on where, and what exactly those meters are based off of? Was it including trash, or possibly just a boss fight? Affliction warlocks are notoriously bad on trash, hence why the warlock would be slacking. As a warlock, I find it hard to believe those meters were taken off a boss fight. On the rare occasion that I'm affliction, I can easily pull 1.1-1.2k DPS (4/5 MH, 5/9 BT, to give you an idea of gear level). Keep in mind, on trash I usually pull 700-900, 1k depending on the trash, and how long it takes to kill it.

[Seraphk]

Do you have any information on where, and what exactly those meters are based off of? Was it including trash, or possibly just a boss fight? Affliction warlocks are notoriously bad on trash, hence why the warlock would be slacking. As a warlock, I find it hard to believe those meters were taken off a boss fight. On the rare occasion that I'm affliction, I can easily pull 1.1-1.2k DPS (4/5 MH, 5/9 BT, to give you an idea of gear level). Keep in mind, on trash I usually pull 700-900, 1k depending on the trash, and how long it takes to kill it.

It says overall damage as in the entire Nexus instance including the trash. I am currently asking my friend how many pulls/bosses he was into the instance at that point.

Anyway, I don't think Affliction is not bad on trash for a Warlock that knows how to DoT and throw seeds after a minimal amount of AoE threat has been generated no matter what class your tank happens to be -- It takes time for your DoTs to deal damage but that's why you put them on multiple targets. This is even more so true with the new Affliction talent tree as multiple Corruptions on targets grants you a 10% chance per tick to increase your spellcasting speed by 20% having an increasing amount of uptime with an increased number of mobs -- Same ideology behind Nightfall procs. Thus, it won't be uncommon to see Warlock throwing Shadowbolts at targets other than the primary one in order to refresh Corruption without casting it again allowing for more synergy on trash.

But, both my friend and you know how to play a Warlock better than me though as I only have a Feral Druid, Prot Paladin, and Resto Shaman. But, the way I see it is that Affliction Locks are only restricted by their tanks multi-mob TPS (thus why my friend was saying, "I need Omen" since he is used to doing this). My Prot Paladin has run Shattered Halls with Aff Warlocks that do 1.7 k DPS just throwing Seed of Corruption the entire time. So, it really makes a difference.

[Rawberry]

You should always question things.

There is a unmistakable difference between questioning things, and being a spoiled brat who cannot seem to stop screaming for more cake.

[FluffyWuffms]

... What about cake?

[Raptorg]

yeah, it's not as if the talent just blatantly fails to deliver for anything but the threat reduction
which in WotLK isn't likely to become all that important

[mcstu]

There is a unmistakable difference between questioning things, and being a spoiled brat who cannot seem to stop screaming for more cake.

if you do not ask, you will not get..regardless of how much cake is in the shop window.


IMo, rets should be able to hold their own against any class. If you want to do dps, then fine , you should be able to do proper dps. I will have no nerfs.

[Rawberry]

if you do not ask, you will not get..regardless of how much cake is in the shop window.

The Retribution Paladin has been given enough cake already.

[Yvert]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000

I'm going with this spec unless they drastically change the prot/ret trees. I don't pvp AT ALL /shrug.

[Karpalo]

Ret paladins are like chuppy kids who got too much cake and now they are feeling sick.

[Seraphk]

The Retribution Paladin has been given enough cake already.

Indeed.

I figured I'd go ahead and close this thread since it took me a while to get in touch with my friend in beta as he never logs on Vent anymore & plays beta all the time rather than live.

First off, that screenshot was taken right around the time they fought the first boss. Thus, it's mostly trash pulls, not a boss fight. The typical number of mobs pulled in each wave is considered mid-range like that you'd find in Underbog (high number being Shat Halls). He was using max rank Consecrate since his mana restoration from JotW easily kept his mana full which may have accounted for a constant amount of higher sustained DPS.

Second, here's what he had to say about his overall encounters with Ret Paladins in general:

Its not that theyre just out dps'ing people. Its that they are leaps and bounds out dps'ing people.

Ive heard, from time to time, people call for the nerf bat for Locks, Rogues, Hunters, etc and Ive always disagreed with them. What I have seen in the beta just doesnt look and feel broken, it IS broken. The current level cap is 77. There are 2 level 77 ret pally that sit outside the horde starting zone in the Borean Tundra. Not only do they take out all the level 70's with 1 - 2 shots, but they easily take out all the higher level characters that come to help AND all the horde elite guards. Its also not just that they are killing all those, but it is the ease in which they are doing it that is the most shocking. Taking on wave after wave of level 70's and above and all the elite guards is insane for any class. It wasnt until some horde ret paladins came in to help did we run them off.

I have yet to see a prot or holy paladin in Beta. All tanks are warriors or druids, and all healers are priests or shamans. If you are a Paladin in beta, you are likely a ret paladin. So, its not that im calling for a nerf on Ret because, I agree that they needed an increase in dps, but so far what Ive seen is broken.

Besides we all know it should be warlocks that are OP.

Hint -- The Warlock comment was humor.

Knowing my guildy. He is infinitely fair minded on many matters. He wouldn't be one to call out for nerfs or say that things are broken without it actually being that way. These are things that are actually happening in Beta at the moment. To think it is balanced, to think you do not need your damage toned down a bit is simply being unreasonable.

It's true that nobody is Level 80 and there's no way to compare DPS accurately. However, there is something called scalability and something that scales so well at Level 77 as to take on multiple Level 70-77 characters along with elite guards from a town without breaking a sweat is definitely scaling far beyond the means of viability regarding balance.