A warning to Raiding Ret Paladins.

[Rawberry]

Blizzard will be saying that to all beta retadins soon enough, get your laughs in now while you can.

I could care less about any damage tuning they might do, they could nerf the damage by 40-50% and I'd still be a happy camper.

Our broken core mechanics have been changed, fixed and streamlined and that means more to me than any amount of damage the Retribution Paladin is doing on the Beta at this moment.


I would nerf our damage myself if I could, anything to get the morons complaining about our immense damage output off our part of the forum.

[mrfinch]

People who complain that we can do damage in the beta must have never met a good geared Retadin in live.

[Tigercat]

I could care less about any damage tuning they might do, they could nerf the damage by 40-50% and I'd still be a happy camper.

Our broken core mechanics have been changed, fixed and streamlined and that means more to me than any amount of damage the Retribution Paladin is doing on the Beta at this moment.


I would nerf our damage myself if I could, anything to get the morons complaining about our immense damage output off our part of the forum.

Oh I agree, but you're one of very few actually intelligent retadins I've ever actually seen.

[b37x]

They see me trollin'
They flaming
Rollin' their eyes because I'm posting dirty
My post is so bad
They laughin'
They hopin'
My next troll won't be quite so wordy

[Rawberry]

Oh I agree, but you're one of very few actually intelligent retadins I've ever actually seen.

Thank you, I'm certain you are an excellent <insert class> player yourself .

[Rawberry]

I have to Agree with Rawberry.

Alot of our underylying problems were solved.... we got nice changes and added utility and even if our damage was nerfed we would come out better then we are now. The damage buff is an excelent and added A++ but so long everything under it all is fixed that is even better.

I was starting to think I might be the only Paladin who actually had a clue. Thanks for renewing my hope .

[SilentNSly]

Ret pallies are for DPS, blessings, hands, aura, judgments.

In 5/10 mans, you may be needed to backup help if the healer dies/etc.
But in 25 mans, I seriously doubt that.

Although, a "last second" Lay of Hands to save a tank/wipe is always impressive.

[draiana]

The original poster really needs to look at what ret is all about, on a side note, I do ocasionally throw myself a heal in raids, Najentus i time my heal to go off just after bubble breaks, supremus if i get hit by a volcano in p2 and in situations like that, and only then if pots/health stones are on CD.

[Voidseeker]

LOL @ all the Knee Jerk responses here.


Aside from Rawberry and a couple others you are all the reasons that people say "LOLRET" to us Ret paladins. Wait, what? Did I say US? Oh geee, did I include myself in there? I wonder why I would do that? Maybe it because I am actually IN the beta, and my Paladin was FULL Ret and only switch recently to Prot to test out the tank gear and ShoR?


I will try to use small words for those that did not get the point.

Retribution Paladins CAN and WILL do great damage. But they will not do it the same way they are on live right now. You CAN, but you will be less useful than a pure DPS class in the same spot if you try.

EVERY Raid now will be both 10 and 25 man. In 25 man raids you will be able to concentrate almost solely on your DPS, but even then, until some point in endgame, you are going to be using SoV (jump down to the numbers brought over from another topic). In 10 mans if you think you are going to be able to just act like a rogue and post the same DPS you are wrong. Retribution Paladins have been fixed, but that does not mean that Blizzard has changed their idea of where each class should fall on the DPS charts.

I am not saying we will be anything like Live Ret, that is gone. Ret is actually a DPS spec and should perform well. What I am saying is that there will be Paladins that put out AS MUCH or MORE DPS than SoB only bots. And while doing so will also use their other abilities.

In 10 man raiding it will almost be guaranteed that Retribution Paladins will need to toss heals out while their other abilities are on cool down. All you need for proof is to ask yourself why there is a HoT component on Sheath of Light. It has both a PVP and PVE meaning, and not hard to infer what Blizzard was implying with it.


Below are some other numbers from the "which seal is best for Ret?" topic with the math behind the damage. Now if you are using SoV alone, never hitting the mob aside from refresh, you will put out more DPS than all the damage from SoB - ignoring white damage for both. That is with only hitting the mob ONCE every 18 seconds, and using which ever Judgement you wish every 8.

Now, in 25 man content you may be able to swap in SoB or SoC to increase your DPS - and on normal Tank & Spank fights that will be expected. BUT, and here is the reason for the warning, Blizzard WILL have fights where classes that CAN heal will be required to do so, along with putting out DPS. There will be fights where you will have to use the time outside of Judgeing and refreshing SoV to blow a GCD on a FoL/HL - and with our high crit drop a HoT on the subject of the heal. And in 10 man content I would bet money it will be almost required on every serious fight.

Those Paladins that never do so will be passed over for those that do. Yes, I did not put up a warning to Shaman, I am not one nor care if they lose a spot in the raid, and this is not the Shaman forum. I am a Paladin and DO care that we play to the max of our class.


If you read this warning as a "Get in the back and heal" order you need to take reading comprehension courses. If you think that I am unaware of the Paladin class, think again. I have over 160 days played on my toons, and was raiding with my Paladin back in Classic WoW. Raided as both Holy and Prot, could not raid as Ret because it was even more broken than in TBC. It is finally fixed, and will most likely be raiding as Ret & Prot - depending on which is needed more for the raid at the time.

There are drastic changes coming to raiding, not the least of which being the one pot per fight debuff. In an extended fight, when Pure healers are going to be taxed to the max keeping tanks & raid up from mob damage, all mana regen abilities and damage reduction abilities are going to be needed, along with added healing. Putting self inflicted damage into a fight like that is just stupid. And NOT helping the Pure Healers is just as dumb.

Ret Paladins are going to be required to get through those kind of fights because they are able to do all three. But LOLRETadins from TBC that have no clue how to do more than spam CS with SoB up will not be able to do so. Hence the warning. But hey, it is ok. You all that think putting talent points in Ret mean clicking SoB and taking your heals off your bar feel free to do so. Just don't whine when a better Paladin that uses everything in their class takes your raid spot.


SoB vs SoV:

3200+ AP
38.57% Crit
3.29 Speed Weapon
1200-1450 weapon damage (1325 middle)
1200 Spellpower


Damage for 5 min:
Per swing damage: 1325 (avg)
Total attacks over 5 min (all hits, no loss of swings): 300 / 3.29 = 91.
Damage over 5 min, white: 91 x 1325 = 120,575
Crit dmg over 5 min, white: 120,757 x (39 /100) = 47,024
Total damage over 5 min, white: 167, 599

SoB:
Per swing damage: 464
Damage over 5 min, SoB: 91 x (1325 x 0.35) = 42,201
Crit dmg over 5 min, SoB: 42,201 x (39 /100) = 16,458
Total damage over 5 min, SoB: 58,659
Total damage returned over 5min, SoB: 5,865

J-SoB:
Total judgments, 5 min: 300 / 8 = 37
Judgement Damage: [0.45x1325 + 0.36x3200 + 0.58x1200] = 2444
Damage over 5 min, J-SoB:: (2444 x 37) = 90,428
Crit dmg over 5 min, J-SoB: 90,428 x (39/100) = 35,267
Total dmg over 5 min, J-Sob: 125,695
Total dmg returned over 5 min. J-Sob: 41,479


Complete damage done 5 min: 184,354
Complete damage taken 5 min: 47,344
Complete Damage done 5 min, with white damage: 351,953

SoV:
DoT Damage, one stack: [(.034x1200 + .07x3200) x 6] = 1589
DoT Damage, five stacks: 1589 x 5 = 7945
DoT Damage, per tick (3 sec): 1324
Damage over 5 min, SoV: (300 / 3 – 5) x 1324 = 125,780 (it will take ~5 seconds to get to 5 stacks)

J-SoV:
Total judgments, 5 min: 300 / 8 = 37
Judgement Damage: [1 + 0.58x1200 + 0.36x3200] = 1849
Judgement Damage, full stack: 1849 x 1.5 = 2774
Damage over 5 min, J-SoB:: (2774 x 37) = 102,638
Crit dmg over 5 min, J-SoB: 102,638 x (39/100) = 40,029
Total dmg over 5 min, J-Sob: 142,667

Complete Damage done 5 min: 268,447
Complete Damage taken 5 min: 0
Complete Damage done 5 min with White damage: 436,046



Final Tally:
SoB:
Complete damage done 5 min: 351,953
Complete damage taken 5 min: 47,344

Sov:
Complete Damage done 5 min: 436,046
Complete Damage taken 5 min: 0

[Voidseeker]

The original poster really needs to look at what ret is all about, on a side note, I do ocasionally throw myself a heal in raids, Najentus i time my heal to go off just after bubble breaks, supremus if i get hit by a volcano in p2 and in situations like that, and only then if pots/health stones are on CD.

You posted while I was replying so let me add to your point:

You can only use ONE pot per fight. There is a Potion Sickness debuff that makes it impossible to drink a second potion until you have been out of combat for more than a few seconds. One pot. Healers get one mana pot. DPS gets one Health Pot. etc. That is just one of the changes coming to raids.

Being smart and tossing out heals while your offensive abilities are on CD is going to be required as we have unlimited mana (if JotW holds up after tuning). DS alone will not cut it.

Putting out the maximum DPS possible while freeing up as many GCDs as possible for other abilities should be the goal. If healing is more than covered we fill those GCDs with as many offensive abilities as possible. If it is not we scale back on the offensive and swap in defensive (Heals / Hands / etc). Too many Ret Paladins do not and believe they should not do so.

[Rockeroad]

I think they got rid of potion sickness didnt they? Though i dont know since im not in beta and i DEMAND TO LEVEL MY WARLOCK TO 80 ALREADY!

[meliancill]

thanks for the numbers. and i agree while we probably will not be throwing heals every 2 seconds. however with the changes giving all heals the BoL affect and the SoL tallents our heals wont be all that bad either. so i do expect most paladins ret or holy to be throwing heals now and then to help with the fight. it dosnt matter what your dps is imo. as a hybrid you are there to do what is needed at the time. that is why they bring you - acting like a rogue means you should go play a rogue imo.

[Voidseeker]

I think they got rid of potion sickness didnt they? Though i dont know since im not in beta and i DEMAND TO LEVEL MY WARLOCK TO 80 ALREADY!

No, the debuff is just not shown on the debuff list (most likely as it just takes up a slot and cannot be cleared by anything there is no need). One pot, the rest are unavailable until OOC for a while.

[Rawberry]

While your math seems to be very solid Voidseeker, you are forgetting one thing in your hypothesis. The need for a debuff slot, and while this might seem trivial at first when you think about it longer it actually becomes quite the problem.

At the moment (TBC) raiding parties are already having issues running into the debuff cap, and with the arrival of the Death Knight and numerous of new debuffs the slots will more then likely be well filled up.


If Blizzard does not manage to increase the debuff maximum from 40 to something higher, say 50 or 60 I would request any Paladin in my raid not to use SoV as there are other classes who could make better use of the debuff slot.

[Deusmortis]

Question for ya Void: If we're supposed to be dropping heals between attacks, how do you figure our mana pool will hold up? Since we're supposed to be sharing warrior itemization, I don't expect to have a raid buffed mana pool of much over 7k. Think JotW will be smart enough to choose the judging paladin as a target for mana restore?

[Rawberry]

Think JotW will be smart enough to choose the judging paladin as a target for mana restore?

It does actually.

[Karpalo]

While your math seems to be very solid Voidseeker, you are forgetting one thing in your hypothesis. The need for a debuff slot, and while this might seem trivial at first when you think about it longer it actually becomes quite the problem.

At the moment (TBC) raiding parties are already having issues running into the debuff cap, and with the arrival of the Death Knight and numerous of new debuffs the slots will more then likely be well filled up.


If Blizzard does not manage to increase the debuff maximum from 40 to something higher, say 50 or 60 I would request any Paladin in my raid not to use SoV as there are other classes who could make better use of the debuff slot.

yeah after all it only ticks something like 2k+ with stack of 5 and thats not even lvl 80 gear^^

[Rawberry]

yeah after all it only ticks something like 2k+ with stack of 5 and thats not even lvl 80 gear^^

To quote Voidseeker:

DoT Damage, one stack: [(.034x1200 + .07x3200) x 6] = 1589
DoT Damage, five stacks: 1589 x 5 = 7945
DoT Damage, per tick (3 sec): 1324

That's 441 damage per second. IF they do not tune the spells coefficients, and they probably will.

[Voidseeker]

While your math seems to be very solid Voidseeker, you are forgetting one thing in your hypothesis. The need for a debuff slot, and while this might seem trivial at first when you think about it longer it actually becomes quite the problem.

At the moment (TBC) raiding parties are already having issues running into the debuff cap, and with the arrival of the Death Knight and numerous of new debuffs the slots will more then likely be well filled up.


If Blizzard does not manage to increase the debuff maximum from 40 to something higher, say 50 or 60 I would request any Paladin in my raid not to use SoV as there are other classes who could make better use of the debuff slot.

Very good point, in a 25 man raid I completely agree with you. We do know that Blizzard is trying to up the slots, but have stated that it is a major undertaking. We will see if they do raise it or not. Everything is up to change.

Priority for debuff slots will have to be done when we know how many we have and what ones will be active in the raid. It may be that other Raid Leaders will want the DPS of SoV knowing that they are getting more heals from the Paladin using it.

This is not as much an issue in 10 man raids. But maxing out becomes even more important in 10 mans.

[Voidseeker]

Question for ya Void: If we're supposed to be dropping heals between attacks, how do you figure our mana pool will hold up? Since we're supposed to be sharing warrior itemization, I don't expect to have a raid buffed mana pool of much over 7k. Think JotW will be smart enough to choose the judging paladin as a target for mana restore?

Mana is not an issue right now with JotW. It returns more than enough to toss out heals every now and then. We will see if that holds up after tuning though.

That's 441 damage per second. IF they do not tune the spells coefficients, and they probably will.

That is just for the DoT, and the Paladin never using a judgement. And if the numbers used are in line with Ret stats for lvl 80 Ret Raiders. It is entirely possible that the numbers used will be lower, and the DPS will be higher. We will have to see what comes with 80, raids, and gear.