Ret Pally gear in Wotlk: Missing Int?

[Voidseeker]

No, they did not revert potion sickness. They only removed the debuff icon. I literally JUST logged in, got in a fight and wasted a potion to double check. The potion cool down timer did not start until after the fight had ended.


ONE potion per fight. Still in the game.

[b37x]

If only Divine Plea wasn't a channeled spell. Prot paladins could use in during a fight (or a couple times during long fights). And holy paladins wouldn't have to stop healing so they could regen mana to continue healing. And ret paladins wouldn't have to stop dps to regen mana to continue dps.

[Alski]

the sets atm are just placeholders because there are other things to do first before they finish designing the pvp sets.

[Athene]

What I hear is that Blizzard wants retipallies to use the same gear as dps warrs. At the same time, they have greatly boosted all of our mana giving spells, so mana is absolutely no problem right now. I don't think we'll even want intellect in our gear, even in PVP.
I'm in the beta myself, and I can tell you right away that you will never think of intellect, MP5, or any kind of mana regen consumables in raid in WotLK. I also have not seen a single item yet that has both strength and intellect. There are items with AP and int, but those are hunter and shaman gear. I don't really think the retri PVP gear will be much changed from what we see now.

I read somewhere that Blizzard wants the retpally's manapool to act more like energy for rogues and rage for warriors. They managed that pretty well.
When I grind for quests in the beta, it goes like this:
I put on SoR (that's actually the most powerful seal right now), mount up, run around and gather as many mobs as I can find nearby. Just like a prot pally in TBC.
Then I cast Consecration (22% of base mana), Divine Storm(20% of base mana), CS(8% of base mana), judgement doesn't work atm. That's 50% of base mana total, and deals maybe 30-40% of the mobs health.
Then I cast Seal of Wisdom, rince and repeat. A short time later all mobs are dead, and my mana pool is completely or almost full. The fact that seals now procc off every weapon based attack (white, CS, DS) and that SoW scales with AP and spellpower makes it a piece of cake to regain mana in no time. Every procc gives me about 400 mana at level 70, and I think it proccs like 90% of the time.

Our mana regaining abilities are alot more powerful than in TBC. It can barely be compared, because it doesn't really work the same way. We have tons of more utility now, for both ourselves and for a raid or PVP.

[briany]

Judgement of Wisdom -- Baseline -- Requires level 12.
"Unleashes the energy of a Seal spell to judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore
[ 9% of AP + 9% of Spell Power ] mana to the attacker. Refer to individual Seals for additional Judgement effect. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
5% of base mana, 10 yd range, Instant cast, 10 sec cooldown"


Judgements of the Wise -- Rank 3/3 -- Requires 25 points in Retribution.
"Your Judgement spells restore mana to up to 3 group or raid members totaling 60% of the damage caused."

Paladin: Receives approx. 2 points of Attack Power per point of Strength.

Sheath of Light -- Rank 3/3 -- Requires 20 points in Retribution.
"Increases your spell power by an amount equal to 30% of your attack power and your critical healing spells heal the target for 60% of the healed amount over 12 seconds."

Touched by the Light -- Rank 3/3 -- Requires 40 points in Protection.
"Increases your spell power by an amount equal to 30% of your Stamina and increases the amount healed by your critical heals by 30%."

The big picture: the Strength + spellpower, or in the case of protadins, the strength + stam, grants a significant boost to JoW and JotW.

Math using level 70 statistics (no beta key):
Base mana: 3978.00 mana, 87 int with no gear on.

Judgement of Wisdom in present beta build using my 70s live server stats:
1852 AP self-buffed. 555.6 predicted spellpower with ShthOfLt.
=(1852*.09) + (555.6*.09) = 216.684 mana per proc, with an increased proc chance and a 4s internal cooldown (likely roughly every other hit with a proper retweap.)

Using the parenthesied assumption and the law of large numbers, you may assume that about 5000 out of every 10k attacks will grant 216.684 mana, and thus, with the example 3.6 speed weapon, an approximate value of 217 mana per 7.2 sec, or approximately 30.095 mana per sec. divided by 1852: .01625 mana per point of AP, or .0325 mana per second per point of str (barring straight-up AP buffs and AP on gear)

Conclusion using the math that would make my differential equations professor sneeze blood and fecal matter:
every 1 point strength grants an estimated .0325 mana per second.

Judgements of the Wise in present beta using 70 LS stats:
Damage effect of Judgement of Wisdom while Seal of Command is active:
"Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing [0.30 * mw + 0.36 * AP + 0.58 * SPH] to [0.30 * MW + 0.36 * AP + 0.58 * SPH] Holy damage, [0.60 * mw + 0.72 * AP + 1.16 * SPH] to [0.60 * MW + 0.72 * AP + 1.16 * SPH] if the target is stunned or incapacitated."

30% least weapon damage plus 36% AP plus 58% spellpower to same calc with 30% max weap subbed:
883-1070 weapon swing damage.
(.3*883) + (.36 * 1852) + (.58 * 555.6) to (.3 * 1070) + (.36 * 1852) + (.58 * 555.6) holy damage (unmitigated by armor or any known resistance gear)

1068.438 to 1309.968 Holy damage, using law of large numbers, we may assume that after a nearly infinite number of judgement casts, you will have a mean damage dealt without crits this is approximately the 50% damage mark:
(1068.438 + 1309.968) /2: 1189.203 Holy Damage.

.6*1189.203 = 713.5218 mana regained every 8 sec, or 89.190225 mps, counting crits as exempt and outliers (despite my predicted 53% chance to crit with judgement)

If you used diff Q for WoW theorcraft.... man, I'll lol hard.
Next, you should start making MATLAB models on ret pally's mana consumption fighting Warlocks and priests.

anyway, there are 3 main ways for ret pallies to regain mana. (excluding pots)
Divine Plea
Judgement of the wise
Judgement of wisdom (from auto swing, CS and divine storm)
heals from other healers

assumption: (you start with 100% mana, you smash your button everytime the button is up, and you have enough hit rating that you won't miss)
you are wielding a 3.5 weapon speed 2H wep (most common weapon speed in TBC)

in 1 minute: you have 17 auto swing, 10 CS swing, and 6 Divine storm swing

assume your opponent has 10% avoidance
judgement of wisdom: 50% proc on hit,

(17*90% + 10*90% + 6* 90%)*50% = 14.85 JoW proc
If each proc returns 216 mana
each minute, JoW alone gives you 216 * 14.85 = 3207.6 mana, or equivalent to 267.3 MP/5


Judgement of the wise:
this depends heavily on your dmg, and who's around you.
when you are alone:

assume you have good crit gear, 30% crit, 55% judgement crit (which should also be a low end value)
each minute, you have 7.5 judgement hit, 5% spell resistance

if you are doing 2000 judgement normal damage (125% judgement crit dmg bonus from talent)

7.5*95%*(2000*45% + 3000*55%*125%)*60% = 12664.7 mana/min or 1055.39mp/5

if this is split into 3 other players, you will have 263.848mp/5

adding with JoW proc,

1055.39mp/5 + 267.3mp/5 = 1322.69mp/5

basically, you have to burn 1322.69mana every 5 seconds to even out the mana gain. excluding heal.

If you are in a 3v3 match with a healer, rogue and you. you will lose the mana gain from it, but you will have mana gain from heals. with 1 other mana user,

527.695mp/5 + 267.3 mp/5 + 2000HP/5*10% = 994.995mp/5 avg. (and this depends on how much dmg you take, and 2000 HP taken every 5 sec isn't really that much, cos that's like 400 dps on you... very freaking weak.)

That's a lot of mana... and please keep in mind, you are doing pretty good damage for good amount of mana.

But I forgot to mention, these are the numbers when your target is right infront of your face.

so, in practice, it will gain less, but you will probably use less too.

So, divine plea comes into play. And don't forget, you have 4k mana as a buffer. If you got fear bombed and mana drain to hell, divine plea to 50%, drop a judgement and you will be near full.

[Nazumi]

Hm nice Calculations but trust me it comes always different than you think it will. So these Calculation might still correct but when you play its not the same.

[briany]

Hm nice Calculations but trust me it comes always different than you think it will. So these Calculation might still correct but when you play its not the same.

I've kept that in mind when I did the calcuations. Thus I didn't even bother calculating the exact dmg you will do.

If you hit less, you use less mana (assuming you are always kitted). But in PvP, if you can't constantly deal dmg, there's something wrong with your play style, or probably your group.

In PvE, things are more static, and because you have a small mana pool to begin with, when you calculate, you don't need a large time frame in mind. I will say the calculation I did will be more or less close to practical playing. And even if you subtract 20% of the 1322 MP/5 gained, it's still 1057.6 MP/5. Even if divine storm is 1k mana cost and CS is 350 mana cost per cast, it's still just 1008.33 MP/5 deduction. (and that's assuming you can smash the button everytime it's up, and you aren't gaining any heals from healers, excluding other mana regaining tools like BoW, mana spring, shadow priests etc).

[Athene]

anyway, there are 3 main ways for ret pallies to regain mana. (excluding pots)
Divine Plea
Judgement of the wise
Judgement of wisdom (from auto swing, CS and divine storm)
heals from other healers

assumption: (you start with 100% mana, you smash your button everytime the button is up, and you have enough hit rating that you won't miss)
you are wielding a 3.5 weapon speed 2H wep (most common weapon speed in TBC)

in 1 minute: you have 17 auto swing, 10 CS swing, and 6 Divine storm swing

assume your opponent has 10% avoidance
judgement of wisdom: 50% proc on hit,

(17*90% + 10*90% + 6* 90%)*50% = 14.85 JoW proc
If each proc returns 216 mana
each minute, JoW alone gives you 216 * 14.85 = 3207.6 mana, or equivalent to 267.3 MP/5

You're thinking SoW here, not JoW. SoW really proccs alot more often than 50%, and your calculation of mana returned per hit is wrong. It scales with AP, remember? It returns about 370-420 mana per hit to me in beta as level 70, I barely need half a minute to fill my 5,5k manabar. The more AP buffs I have, the faster it fills...

[Voidseeker]

{excellent math removed}

{more good math removed}

Just wondering why you both left out Seal of Wisdom? If mana regen is the goal adding the Seal to the Judgement would be the wisest move, as the Judgement has a built in 4 second cool down but the Seal does not.

Although having typed that I think Athene is right that Binary was thinking SoW, because it is impossible to have more than 15 JoW procs in a one minute time frame (4 second cool down, 60 seconds, 15 PPM).

[Mugjoo]

hmm... maybe because its warrior and DK gear?...

[Varaben]

hmm... maybe because its warrior and DK gear?...

warriors, paladins and DKs are using the SAME gear. Are you really that misinformed? Blizz if combining gear, warlocks, mages, priests are all going to use the same gear. Enhance sham and hunters are gonna use the same gear. Dont post here if youre stupid imo.

[Mugjoo]

warriors, paladins and DKs are using the SAME gear. Are you really that misinformed? Blizz if combining gear, warlocks, mages, priests are all going to use the same gear. Enhance sham and hunters are gonna use the same gear. Dont post here if youre stupid imo.

dont post here if your stupid... i forgot that this was the intelligent forums. and yes, screw ret pallys

[Varaben]

dont post here if your stupid... i forgot that this was the intelligent forums. and yes, screw ret pallys

aweful defensive there, chap. And yeah, if you are stupid or misinformed, the best way to learn is to listen, not talk. You are proving my point.