Judgement of the Wise changed to a "buff"

[Xucuroz]

So yeah, Blizzard said they wanted to make changes to buff stacking and looks like there is a big list of changes but heres the one i think is going to be most important to us paladins...

Judgements of the Wise: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.

In addition to this change, we also needed to address the "mana battery" roles in a raid. The mana regeneration effect they grant is no longer limited to their own party, and it no longer depends on the amount of damage they deal. Each time they trigger the mana regeneration effect, 10 people in their raid group will receive a buff which causes them to regenerate 0.5% of their maximum mana each second. This buff, Replenishment, will be given preferentially to raid members with the lowest mana, but will re-evaluate which raid members receive it each time it is fired. Replenishment is provided by Shadow Priests, Survival Hunters, and Retribution Paladins.

So what does this mean? Obviously its better for raids. 10 people is going to be alot more helpful than 3. Downside? Awful for PvP where you need that mana back instantly and a hit to dps as well i would think since its a fixed about of mana back. Getting mana back for the damage you delt was much better i think. I don't think the Blue mentioned whether this is a "magic" buff or not. Can you imagen if it does turn out to be a magic buff? gg dispel. Pure speculation of course, until a beta tester can test it.

https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...65205&sid=2000

[Raptorg]

lets not forget it'll be almost impossible for a ret pally to sustain his mana due to the lack of proper regeneration, intellect on gear and chainpotting

gg

[Merin]

Curious to see how things like Mana Tide and Improved. Water Elemental pan out, as they weren't mentioned.

[spleeze]

I hope they decide to leave the effect as it is currently for the paladin, and just use the Replenishment mana regeneration buff for other 9-10 raid members.

[Karpalo]

This is kill for shadowpriests. So now they paired our regen with hunters and paladins?

[PalliesThrowStuff]

I hope it's an oversight that Ret Paladins still have no intellect with the previous functionality of JotW, Ret Paladins operated somewhat like warriors with a blue rage bar, it would gradually decrease, but we could reliably get our mana back to keep up the flow of damage AND our various situational abilities.

Now, I'm not so sure, every 8 seconds you judge, which means you're only getting 4% per judgement, as opposed to sometimes 100% per judgement.

with a maximum mana pool so pathetically low, we need -something- to keep ourselves going.

[wingman]

cant jump to conclusions just yet, for all we know this is an added affect, or they changed the original effect to fit in with this new one

[Varithorn1]

I thought ret paladins were supposed to get int from a % of attack power or something.

[spleeze]

This is kill for shadowpriests. So now they paired our regen with hunters and paladins?

It isn't so bad for shadowpriest from reading it, since it says "Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage."

With your dots ticking and your mind flays flaying etc, there will be a lot of chances for you to 'deal damage' thus popping the buff up a lot more reliably than the hunters and A LOT more reliably than a ret pally can, with only being able to judge every 8 seconds.

That said, it does seem a little 'nerfy' and yes I do play a shadowpriest ( and a ret paladin, who knew that we'd be 'mana batteries' too)

[wingman]

I thought ret paladins were supposed to get int from a % of attack power or something.

No, Spell Power from AP, and Enhance Shamans get AP from Intell.

[Karpalo]

It isn't so bad for shadowpriest from reading it, since it says "Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage."

With your dots ticking and your mind flays flaying etc, there will be a lot of chances for you to 'deal damage' thus popping the buff up a lot more reliably than the hunters and A LOT more reliably than a ret pally can, with only being able to judge every 8 seconds.

That said, it does seem a little 'nerfy' and yes I do play a shadowpriest ( and a ret paladin, who knew that we'd be 'mana batteries' too)

It`s not chance on hit. It`s 100% proc apparently and if the buff is not stacking we are on pair. One big happy family.

[Xucuroz]

cant jump to conclusions just yet, for all we know this is an added affect, or they changed the original effect to fit in with this new one

I agree we can't jump to any conclusions but we can speculate on what the impact will be. Personally i think this change is really going to hurt, because we already have no int on our gear, no mp5 and really low mana pools. The instant affect was the soltuion to this.

If you read the description Blue has given which i've quoted, its just a buff, no where does it suggest the paladin gets the affect instantly, we wait for a period of time in order to get a fixed amount of mana back. This is quite inferior to having it damage based as well, as at least before it scaled with damage.

Now i'm just waiting for Beta pallies to test this and see whether or not the "fixed" amount of mana is a lot lower than before and even if its the same, its still not going to scale.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

I agree we can't jump to any conclusions but we can speculate on what the impact will be. Personally i think this change is really going to hurt, because we already have no int on our gear, no mp5 and really low mana pools. The instant affect was the soltuion to this.

If you read the description Blue has given which i've quoted, its just a buff, no where does it suggest the paladin gets the affect instantly, we wait for a period of time in order to get a fixed amount of mana back. This is quite inferior to having it damage based as well.

Agreed.

Perhaps the fairest way would be to alter Replenishment to grant mana returns based on the damage causing the replenishment effect, but over a fixed duration, with only the 10 replenishment buffs being allowed to be active at a time per raid, so the mana batteries are equal, up to the point where they start dealing damage, if the Shadow Priest offers higher DPS, bring him, if it's the Ret Paladin, bring him instead.

This also allows a Retribution Paladin to continue to benefit from dealing heavy Judgement damage to restore their own sorry mana pool.

Perhaps the Retribution Paladin can get 60% of their damage done as mana, with 6% being granted to the 10 party members each, over 8 seconds.

Tuning Vampiric Touch to something more like 2% of shadow damage you cause refunded as mana to 10 party members over 15 seconds seems to be in-line with the Judgement returns, 3% of the shadow priest's total DPS, and 6% of a third (or thereabouts) of the Paladin's DPS.

[Karpalo]

Well thing with sp is that we dont no more bring any other utility in raid than our manaregen and group heal. And it`s no secret that it`s worst scaling class in game so go ahead take your raid spot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!eleven!!!

[b8279]

Certainly a nerf to pvp, especially if it is dispellable. Considering base mana @70 is 2900 means it will be a 75mp5 buff. Great for raids, horrid for pvp. I'm surprised they had never hinted at these changes before, these are like a total redesign to battle mechanics...

[Tigercat]

B8279, did you not notice that it's based on maximum mana, not base mana?

[Karpalo]

B8279, did you not notice that it's based on maximum mana, not base mana?

Did you ever think that retri paladins might not be running in healer gear which is stacked with +int?

[Varithorn1]

If you're going to be mad at Blizzard, do it without the astrics.

[Xucuroz]

I'm no math expert but i saw this posted on the offical paladin forums and thought to copy it here for others to see. Credit goes to Arrent for it.

To elaborate on what Tonic posted, here's some numbers regarding our mana consumption at level 80.

5644 base mana, our gear has +0 intellect, so we'll sit around 6500-7000 mana in a raid. Replenishment will restore .5% of your mana every second, so 2.5% of your mana as mp5. You gain 169 mp5 in a raid situation....

Crusader Strike is 219 MP on a 6 second cooldown, so -136.9 mp5
Divine Storm is 878 MP on a 10 second cooldown, so -439.0 mp5
Judgement is 351 MP on a 8 second cooldown, so - 219.4 mp5

A Seal every two minutes at 615 MP, so -25.6 mp5
Avenging Wrath every two minutes at 351 MP, so -14.6

You're looking at an average rotation that requires 835.5mp5 to break even. Factor our the 109 mp5 from BoW, we'll need 726 mp5 to break even. Factor in Consecration and Exorcism because they actually do damage now because of Sheath of Light, but they cost 603.8 and 117 mp5 respectively. Oh sweet! They do damage now, but we can't afford to use em.

So, a heavy rotation will require 1556.3 mp5 to sustain. Blizzard is like, "Hey! All your abilities will scale amazingly! But you won't have the mana for em because we're destroying JotW."

https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...65280&sid=2000

[Moar Pew Pew]

It was innevitable; I knew Blizz would drop the ball on something. Nothing can be perfect for a class, and we all know that. But to see them so utterly fuck up on this is mind blowing! If this is the final product of the talent, I will actually not ever roll Ret until it's fixed.

Looks like Blizz just sold me on Prot progression. GG -_-