[suggestions] Judgment of the wise

[meliancill]

ok i know there are 2 other threads about this however they seem to be made up of 90% QQ and no real suggestions. so im making this thread to get suggestions on how this might be changed in a way that we can all live with.

my first suggestion is to take [art of war] and add the affect in that way.
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art of war

grants your hand of freedom spell a 33% 66% 100% chance to brake stuns. as well as a 33% 66% 100% chance to retern 60% of the judged damage as mana.

my second suggestion is
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crusader strike
8% of base mana
110% wepon damage
returns mana equil to 60% of the damage delt.

my only problem with this one is that crusader strike is affected heavly by armor making the mana regen minimal at times.

my 3rd suggestion is
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judgment of the wise

grants a 33% 66% 100% chance to apply the replenishment buff to up to 10 raid or party members and grants 20% 40% 60% of the damage delt from judgments back as mana to the paladin.


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now as posted on the beta forums they have a good point

one of the reasons this was changed was a shockadin build could get that tallent and have unlimited mana. that is why the one i like the most is the art of war tallent one.

as said beffor - without the mana regen we will run oom beffor 2 min and there for are of no use to anyone after that. we are the single class that will get almost no mana from this new mana regen thing as we have the lowest mana pools in game in wrath. an 80 human has close to 5k mana down from 6-7k ( with gear ) in bc. and we have so little mana because we have no intell on our gear come wrath.

another idea that has come up is giving a strength to intelect convertion tallent to art of war

art of war
grants a 33% 66% 100% chance to brake stun affects and 30% of your total strength is returnd to you as intelect.

i dont think that would help as much as a flat out mana regen like judgment of the wise used to be.

/discuss

and please keep it to helpfull posts no QQ please.

[meliancill]

i realy do hope so ;D personly though i realy think adding the mana affect to art of war would fix several of the problems. it would make that tallent worth getting for pve as well as put if high enough in the tree that it would be pritymuch ret only. anyone els think this to be true?

[Wolluis]

Hope someone can post a screenshot or video about JotW and how bad it is right now.
I seen a lot of people complaining but don't think many of them are in the Beta.

Edit: Meliancill, thank you for making this quind of post. The rest are all about Complaining

[meliancill]

yes i am not in beta but i am alsow not complaining lol ;D i have ben spending most of my time in the beta forums looking for ideas i could bring to this forum and see what you guys think about it

[Vengeful]

my 3rd suggestion is
---------------------------------------------------------
judgment of the wise

grants a 33% 66% 100% chance to apply the replenishment buff to up to 10 raid or party members and grants 60% of the damage delt from judgments back as mana to the paladin.
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This is fine

[RGeneral24]

judgment of the wise

grants a 33% 66% 100% chance to apply the replenishment buff to up to 10 raid or party members and grants 60% of the damage delt from judgments back as mana to the paladin.

since it is a 3 point talent i say: grants a 33%/66%/100% chance to apply the replenishment buff to up to 10 raid or party members and grants 20%/40%/60% of the damage dealt from judgments back as mana to the paladin.

besides that it is the MOST viable option.

[meliancill]

yes however i think that goes agenst one of the reasons they change it. in affect making it the same without the 2 extra people. i wouldnt be sad to see that change but i dont expect it either

thanks RG i miss wrote that ;D

[Wolluis]

i just found this link

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...96711&sid=2000

his suggestions are:

Suggested Solution:
Ret Paladins NEED a return of mana on their judgements. This test was only based on a 2 minute trial of continued assault on a single target. This does not even begin to address the issues with PvP and the ability to spot heal.

Lower this talent deeper into the Retribution Tree, switching it with Art of War. The Judgements of the Wise talent is more of a necessity for a Ret Paladin than Art of War, and lowering this skill into the tree will prevent other talent trees from abusing the ability to have unlimited mana. (i.e. Holy paladins with illumination)

Judgments of the Wise
Your Judgment spells restore mana to you equal to 15/30/45% of the total damage done and have a 33/66/100% chance to grant Replenishment to 10 party or raid members.

[Samiel]

I don't see it happening, JotW was too much, obviously, in Blizzards eyes, maybe however they will review mana regen, and lift it to 1% per second, rather than .5%? *OR* allow all types of regen to stack...

[meliancill]

the problem i see with that is he said "tital damage done" imo that would be way over powered however if bliz wants to cut our mana regen because it was to high then i can see that as being a viable change but only put the regen on judgments


EDIT: ok sam the problem is and i have ben up all night reading about it is that the mana regen is not even as much as much as you use to judge the seal in the first place. doubling it wouldnt alow for sustanable mana and if they stacked it would mean that rets would pritymuch be stuck in raids becaues they dont have the mana regen to do pvp or solo fighting.

[Xucuroz]

Honestly there was nothing wrong with the old talent. As has been said a hundred times, the mana return was directly related to how much damage the Judgements were doing. Tone down the damge and the mana return will be lower. If thats not enough, the percentage could be lowered for the talent itself.

As you already nicely pointed out:


Judgement of the Wise

50% of the damage delt from Judgements back as mana to the Paladin. - Key thing to note here is the percentage is adjustable.

Also grants 33% 66% 100% chance to apply the replenishment buff to up to 10 raid or party members. - This part of the affect can be for the raid ONLY since the paladin doesn't need it with the original effect of Judgement of the Wise.

[meliancill]

the 2 reasons i have found for the change are as follows

holy paladins ( shockadins ) could gain unlimited mana if they have illumination

and

granting so much mana ( even normalized judgment damage ) was still around 2-3k granting ( if i get the tallent right ) 1.2k to 1.8k to the paladin and 2 party / raid members. it could have ben 60% just to the paladin when he was alone and then it split depending on how many ending up being 20% to 3 people. i personly find that more reasonable.

[Xucuroz]

the 2 reasons i have found for the change are as follows

holy paladins ( shockadins ) could gain unlimited mana if they have illumination

and

granting so much mana ( even normalized judgment damage ) was still around 2-3k granting ( if i get the tallent right ) 1.2k to 1.8k to the paladin and 2 party / raid members. it could have ben 60% just to the paladin when he was alone and then it split depending on how many ending up being 20% to 3 people. i personly find that more reasonable.

I didn't consider Holy paladins because Blizzard does seem to want them to use Judgements more. That being said, Judgement of the Wise was clearly a talent for Ret synergy, not Holy (since they have illumination synergy already, int on their gear and MP5).

You need the talent low enough down in the ret tree not to punish people leveling/ lower lvl ret players. They need the mana too, even if theres more gear with int going around.

They could add a base line Judgement of the Wise which is for just the paladin. It could be something really low like 10% mana return from Judgements or so. Then deep down in ret, they could have Improved Judgement of the Wise which boosts the % up further. I don't think sharing the mana out to other players is the way to go, especially when its the ret paladin that needs it to continue fighting. Tweaking the damage done by Judgements and the damage-return to mana % is the way forward i think.

Either way it needs to be done. I'd hate to see the current version ever make it Live.

[Vengeful]

Since it is fairly up there in the tree, like an above poster said, a holy paladin or a shockadin could get it too, this would prove a great problem because it would give significant mana returns regardless of spec.

That being said the single best alternative would be

Righteous Vengence- Increases critical damage bonus of your Judgement and Divine Storm spells by 25%. In addition Your Judgements of the Wise restore mana back to the Paladin equal to 60% of the damage done. 5/5

5% critical damage to judgements and divine storms, and 12 % Mana restore per point, but pulling you out of the other mana return effect from baseline Jotw.

IMO this would be the best alternative. deep enough to make it out of reasonable reach for other specs, but giving us what we need.

good idea.
I would also underline some things using a couple of posts:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=2000&pageNo=2

"60% is essential due to the fact when they go through their numbers run, the numbers we see now will be decreased from what they've hinted at."

"Let's just assume the developers changed the Jusdgements of the Wise ability because they were concerned about Holy Paladins grabbing it along with Illumination which would effectively give them unlimited mana. The answer to the problem is simple, just move it deeper into the Retribution tree. Switch it with another 3 point talent. I would suggest switching it with Art of War. Judgements of the Wise is far more useful and powerful than the Art of War talent and moving it down "that deep" would prevent other talent trees from using it. "

[Ragnarokzero]

Heres a thought.. and a mana regen to Avenging Wrath simliar to Shamanistic Rage.

[meliancill]

no. giving it to avenging wrath would still have us oom beffor avenging wrath came up and that would force us to use one of our burst damage cool downs just to get mana back. judgment of the wise and avenging wrath dont go well together.

[dudewheresmydk]

agree, switch it with art of war. GO PALLIES!

We need mana regen, or I'm really going dk ^_^

[meliancill]

yes but that is a good compromise. if they dont want to give us somthing like the judgment of the wise then i would go for your idea ;D

[Squeezadin]

Honestly, Art of War right now is just... random... They put in this reduced damage taken and chance to remove stun just to remove the old Art of War effect that was causing those 27k crits or whatever it was.

I could settle for completely losing the current Art of War for the old JotW effect but only to the Paladin, not effecting anyone else. So that way we have...

Judgements of the Wise - Tier 6 Talent - 3/3
Your judgement spells have a 33/66/100% chance to grant up to 10 party or raid members mana regeneration equal to 0.5% of their maximum mana per second.

The Art of War - Tier 9 Talent - 3/3
Your judgement spells restore mana to you, totalling 20/40/60% of the damage done.

That way we keep our utility to the raid and get our blue energy back. You can even play with the percentage abit or even move it to a Tier 10 talent and make Righteous Vengeance its prerequisite...

On a side note, the current The Art of War talent is definitely a bunch of bull so as to put a stop to our outrageous damage. 3% less damage and chance to remove stun with hand of freedom is just something to put there for now... They might as well have put this in...

Nerf Bat - Tier 9 Talent - 3/3
You have a 33/66/100% chance to not remember what this talent used to be.

The old JotW effect would be a good replacement for the obvious placeholder talent that is The Art of War right now, imo.

[meliancill]

yes i agree. i enjoy playing ret i dont tank or heal. i realy dont care what tallent they move it to or if they make it base line ( that would be stuped imo but hey you never know ) as long as we can get our sustaned damage back. if not ill just learn how to use runes lol ( oops did i just say that out loud )