[suggestions] Judgment of the wise

[kraeden]

What they should do and probably will do is just add back in the old effect for the paladin only, and have the 0.5% mana thing for the raid buff.

[tooyahaya]

Maybe the best way is a "Retform" , only can use ret spell but we can get mana when dealing damge.
Like a "blue rage" system.

[meliancill]

lol krek you have that thing on coppy paste dont you

[Kyleface]

a pve ret pally wont be taking art of war...so no thanks on that idea

[Admuntour]

It has to be changed, Blizz was clearly aware retribution paladins had mana problems, that is why they gave us Judgment of the Wise, however Blizzard in the mean time decided to homogenize all buffs/debuffs and felt they had to get Judgment of the Wise in line, they are probably aware that our mana problem still persists they just haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.
I just hope they fix it sooner rather then later, I got my hopes up so much when I saw judgment of the wise and then I got so demoralized when I saw its change, that its hard even for me to be optimistic.

[RGeneral24]

hmmm .... i've been thinking in the idea of changing art of war & maybe i got an idea:

JotW stays like this new change.

Art of War becomes:

The Art of War - Tier 9 Talent - 3/3 (requires Crusader Strike)
Your judgement spells restore mana to you, totalling 20/40/60% of the damage done.

and give the actual art of war effect 2 divine purpose like 4 example:

Divine Purporse - Tier 7 Talent - 3/3
Reduces the chance of being hit by attacks of all sources by 1%/2%/3% and your Hand of Freedom has a 33%/66%/100% to remove Stun efects.

this way this useless PvP based talent (couse of the effects) now has the effect of art of war & allow 2 be a worth PvP talent 2 get without dropping the main PvP 0/20/51 build 4 retri.
also this change would allow 2 make JotW a pure PvE talent & dont allow shockadins 2 get the mana return from judgements couse it is 2 deep 2 get it.

[Moar Pew Pew]

it could work. The only problem, however, is that i believe they wanted to make shockadins unable to get to "the judgebar", and purpose is almost as accessible...a holy shocker that only goes as deep as shock and no deeper can get as far down as 5/5 fanatacism by 80. simply from an accessibility point of view, i gotta side with krekko on this, it has to be something deep down, and his concept frees up 3 TPs that i didnt take into account with my own suggestion.

'Cause we all know Shockadins were what everyone was worried about : ...

[Raserei08]

... How about we just change it to crusader strikes instead of judgments for the mana return, make it 30-50% max to compensate for more repeated usages and upped damage. Keep this new judgment of the wise, add in the crusader strike part, and there we have a shockadin proof talent. It will not be useful to leveling paladins untill fairly deep in the tree, so it is a less than desirable alteration, but at least it would work, I think.

[Yvert]

... How about we just change it to crusader strikes instead of judgments for the mana return, make it 30-50% max to compensate for more repeated usages and upped damage. Keep this new judgment of the wise, add in the crusader strike part, and there we have a shockadin proof talent. It will not be useful to leveling paladins untill fairly deep in the tree, so it is a less than desirable alteration, but at least it would work, I think.

We would only get about half the mana back from this but it would be a 2nd affect to CS finally but i think they can do better for a 2nd affect. All they have to do is move judgements of the wise away from shockadin pickup. Though a lot of leveling pallies will throw a pissy fit about it.

[milkshake619]

Suggestion:

leave JotW as it currently is.

change benediction: new effect;

Benediction
0/5
Reduces the mana cost of your Judgement and Seal spells by 15% and also reduces the mana cost of your Crusader Strike and Divine Storm abilities by 18%. Your judgement spells have a 6% chance to make your next consecrate cost no mana.

up to totals of 75%, 90%, and 30% respectively

[Barky]

personally that talent looks rediculously OP for a talent, doubt blizz would go for it, but hey, has my vote for a new talent :P

[venom1234]

Yupp.

In reality it allowed us to have a True blue rage/energy bar. It would go both up and down, and was indefinate, but was limiting at the same time due to the nature of our small mana pool and high costs of spells. It was not like we could go all out and heal our brains out use DS, consecration, CS, but rather we had to mana ourselves to make sure we had enough mana to judge again, and did not go over our limit in the 8 seconds between judgements.

This is a cool idea. Having the "blue" rage bar fluctuate like a true rage bar is a neat idea assuming there is still the chance we can go oom since we have all that utility, would be unfair to be unlimited like rage or energy. Between that and spiritual attunement I wouldn't have to level a warrior haha

[venom1234]

Suggestion:

leave JotW as it currently is.

change benediction: new effect;

Benediction
0/5
Reduces the mana cost of your Judgement and Seal spells by 15% and also reduces the mana cost of your Crusader Strike and Divine Storm abilities by 18%. Your judgement spells have a 6% chance to make your next consecrate cost no mana.

up to totals of 75%, 90%, and 30% respectively

Doing something with Benediction is a cool idea too. Would even be a nice little addition for prot paladins with the consecration.

[milkshake619]

Doing something with Benediction is a cool idea too.  Would even be a nice little addition for prot paladins with the consecration.

Edit to original post and math behind this change.

Suggestion:

leave JotW as it currently is.

change benediction: new effect;

Benediction
0/5
Reduces the mana cost of your Judgement and Seal spells by 16% and also reduces the mana cost of your Crusader Strike and Divine Storm abilities by 18%.  Your judgement spells have a 6% chance to make your next consecrate cost no mana.

up to totals of 80%, 90%, and 30% respectively


WHY?

in a dps position, forfeiting might for wisdom blessing or using SoW instead of command or other dmg seal is not an option.
thus, maintaining mana in order to maintain dps is the key to the solution.

Math
Ret has 4 main abilities in a dps rotation that adds to it's dps.  this is not a dps calculation but a mana useage rotation.

Seals:  14% base mana, effective cooldown 2 minutes
Judgements: 5% base mana, effective cooldown 8 seconds
Crusader Strike: 8% base mana, effective cooldown 6 seconds
Divine Storm: 20% base mana, effective cooldown 10 seconds

Mana per second of each ability:
Seals:  0.116666 mana per second
Judgements: 0.625 mana per second
Crusader Strike: 1.33333 mana per second
Divine Storm: 2 mana per second
Total: 4.075% of base mana per second used. JotW restores 0.5% per second.

Mana useage of each ability per second talented:
Seals: [14% - (14%*0.8)] / 120sec = 0.0233333% mana per sec.
Judgements: [5% - (5%*0.8)] / 8 sec = 0.125% mana per sec.
Crusader Strike: [8% - (8%*0.9)] / 6 sec = 0.133333% mana per sec.
Divine Storm: [20% - (20%*0.9)] / 10 sec = 0.2% mana per sec.
Total: 0.482% base mana per second used. Jotw returns 0.5% per second.

Net
With both talents specced at maximum capacity, it essentially makes your base dps rotation essentially free. however, a few problems exist that also give this system a handicap.
1. JotW will not always be giving the paladin mana back, thus, while JotW is not on, paladin is still effectively using mana to maintain dps, and will continue to do so until such a time that they are within the 10 mana users with the least % of max mana.
2. This system does not offer sufficient mana back to also allow for mana regen to give paladin spammable use of all other abilities.  that includes consecrate, avenging wrath, exorcism, hand spells, blessings, bubbles (and god forbid heal as the hybrid was ment to do).  all of these spells must be paid for out of the paladin's own mana reserve.
3. positive mana/sec from JotW helps paladin continue to gain mana when under the effects of JotW, so provided sufficient time, they can move to a point that they nolonger need the buff. going back to the mana battery point of view, thats another person regaining mana.
4. other abilities such as raid provided wisdom or JoWisdom allow for paladin to use and maintain other abilities while in a dps situation. This lets them pay for their useage of the items mentioned in item 2 above.  in dire situations, the paladin will also have access to Divine Plea for an additional burst of regeneration.
5. the talent being a tier one, will allow both holy and prot paladins to gain some benefit from the mana reduction. including holy paladins who are expected to keep a judgement  in their rotation, as well as prot paladins who also suffer from intellectless gear. note: holy paladins have int, therefore JotW will help them regen mana, unlike prot or ret paladins. and prot paladins get mana back while healed, so neither benefit to the full effect of the combo of these abilities.
6. holy and prot paladins gain only a small amount of mana conservation from speccing this talent compared to retadins because it essentially will only apply to their seal and judgement useage, which altogether is not the most mana inefficient spells of the paladin's repatoire.

[Ragnarokzero]

In raid settings Rets wont be the only class/spec providing the buff so basically it should always be up.

[milkshake619]

In raid settings Rets wont be the only class/spec providing the buff so basically it should always be up.

read the blue, the buffs dont stack and it chooses the 10 lowest. therefore it won't always be up.

[meliancill]

thanks for the math and yes. this buff wont stack and only pick the 10 lowest. so if you get hit by it you cant get it agen for at least 10 seconds.

[Aiphares]

theoretically( !) if the 10 lowest gain the buff, and then the shadowpriest spreads the buff, would the 10 next gain the buff? (then they would be 20 with the buff, almost or all mana classes)

[meliancill]

that would be posible since it dosnt stack. however to gain any good mana out of this you need 15k-20k mana. so ultimently this buff will almost do nothing to any ret paladins unless they are siting in holly gear with masive manaa pools

[milkshake619]

theoretically( !) if the 10 lowest gain the buff, and then the shadowpriest spreads the buff, would the 10 next gain the buff? (then they would be 20 with the buff, almost or all mana classes)

no. the buff lasts until the buff is re-applied.

i.e. the first time a paladin judges or a sp does shadow dmg, that game checks the raid for the 10 players with the lowest mana %

then the game will apply the buff to those players. when the buff is refreshed, the game rechecks for the 10 lowest.
now, the new 10 lowest will recieve the buff, and the old 10 lowest will lose it. players who are still in the 10 lowest have their buff refreshed. players who were in the 10 lowest, but have been surpassed as one of the lowest lose the buff. and the buff is awarded to the new players who moved some people out.